A Startling Statistic at UCLA

<p>EK,</p>

<p>But it also goes the other way. Liek my D, her best friend from 6th thru 12 grade was in always in intergrated schools. When it came to looking at colleges, she specifically wanted a HBCU because she wanted to be in a place where there were more 10 black kids on grade. She is a rising junior at Spelman.</p>

<p>I know my neice an nephew (siblings) both went K-12 in diverse schools (including high school at Brooklyn Tech), turned down a number of what in the eyes of the CC crowd would be considered more "prestigious schools" many with great merit aid, to take a full ride at Howard (her) and North Carolina A & T. </p>

<p>While she was at Howard, her best friend was over at Georgetown so she had a lot of friends both places (as blacks at G-town who wanted to pledge the historically black greek system, pledged at Howard). They both immensely enjoyed their experience at their respective schools. He got a degree in engineering and had multiple job offers upon graduation and is based in NC. She graduated this year, loved her experience there and lights up when she talks about it. Will be starting the Creative Writing grad program at JHU and is a very happy camper. MY brother's only gripe was that neither of his kids came back to NYC after graduation :) .</p>

<p>
[quote]
In my America defender mask, I would like to change 'our' to 'every'(which you might very well mean) because I think it is quite natural and prevalent(although highly tragic) to mistrust what appears different and to feel more comfortable with the familiar.

[/quote]
Absolutely. Certainly America is not unique here. I only spoke specifically of it because America is at the center of my experience with this sort of thing.</p>

<p>
[quote]
This is why we waste so much time trying to persuade others to become like us, often through indefensible pressures. Overcoming racism is an achievement, just as culture is an achievement since it curbs our violent animal nature and permits, through agreement/threat of punishment, the strong of arm not necessarily to conquer.

[/quote]
Yeah. But, you know, there are some amazingly subtle and yet very powerful biological and social forces interacting to cause racism, and I have experimented with them. I think, to tell the truth, racism is pretty much nothing more than a branch of ME-ism and that we see it cropping up with equal force even among people of the same race. Shiites and Sunnis at times hate each other every bit as much as whites and blacks. There are blacks in Africa who would die for the chance to kill other blacks. The Chechen rebels are literally killing others much like themselves in many ways. The same goes for white Protestants who have hated white Catholics with such force as to disown their own kids when the two groups have intermarried. Likewise with Serbs and Croats. Catholics have hated Catholics, and Protestants have hated Protestants. White Irish folk in Northern Ireland have for many years literally murdered each other. I saw a film some years ago with Emily Watson about a Catholic family in Ireland wherein a grandmother scorns her own grandkid because, as she claimed, he had “Northern Irish Hair”. I just don’t think racism is essentially any different than this, though it does have some very powerful superficial differences. The great thing, I think, is that our cruel reactions to those differences can be overcome, much as we can overcome reactions to other differences. Here is how I’ve tried and succeeded with it (though I do have difficulties extending this everywhere):</p>

<p>Have you ever met a person, maybe a girl in your youth who you initially perceived to be intolerably ugly, but who, after you’ve spoken with her to experience her delightful mannerisms and wonderfully quirky way of looking at the world became irresistibly attractive? Well, I have experienced this several times, each time wondering just what in the world was I thinking! How in the world did I ever see the person as unattractive? And why couldn’t I afterward get back to that place where the person turned me off? I have experienced the same thing with guys, albeit (and to be VERY clear about it :)) not in a sexual way. I’ve met guys with whom I felt little initial affinity, but who inexplicably felt an attachment to me. But when I have gone against my initial inclinations and willed myself to extend toward those guys, I have in almost every case wondered intensely what was my problem. Maybe it was their head shape or height, who knows? But something about their persons initially caused me to respond to them with reticence. And yet after I willed myself to closely analyze them, the very features that I had earlier rejected, took on a new and sometimes profoundly pleasant meaning to me.</p>

<p>I think we probably all have at least some of this capacity to add new physical features to our personal catalogs of preferences, so that as we encounter people who possess differences, we can become better able to exchange with them with fewer episodes of initial dissonance. I have noticed this capacity in myself now very many times. I’ll see someone who is different, have a really yucky initial reaction that makes me completely shut down so that I don’t really even want to say “hello”. But, I’ll go against the reaction to see if I can get close enough to the guy to add his features to my catalog. Far more often than not, the guy will let me add his face just fine. Sometimes, depending on the circumstance, I’ll be able to add his brother, his wife, his sister, his mom and dad, and friends. And it makes it a lot easier next time I encounter someone else like them. Eventually, after adding enough members like these folks to my catalog, I feel at home with them and can even pick out the folks of their “type” who I personally find attractive, distinguishing comfortably between them and those who just don’t do it for me.</p>

<p>I think racism takes place when this capacity goes unused. In the same way pleasant experiences can perhaps make us more receptive to new physical features, negative experiences and negative portrayals can cause us to have visceral negative reactions to certain features. I think a lot of the reactions many of us have against one another may have less to do with race and much more than we think to do with how we are accidentally influencing one another’s perceptions of racial features as we struggle, react and operate within our society. For this reason, and contrary to my good friend Kono here, I think students do “have some sort of obligation to other students to enrich their lives based on their particular ethnic background.” Students often represent the best of us, since their whole thing is to be open-minded and learn new stuff. So, it makes plenty of sense to me to direct the best of our different “types” of people toward each other to allow them the chance to add differences to their own catalogs of preference, ultimately to help them avoid the kinds of foolish and destructive assumptions about people that come easily to the ignorant.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Groups treat alien groups as uncivilized, backward and in need of conversion. That we pass on the streets without clubbing each other is fairly impressive in my book and I will consider it extraordinary that we should one day want to go catfishin or have tea.

[/quote]
hah! I shift between admiration for our society and deep cynicism toward it. I wonder if we don’t club one another because of mutual respect for our shared humanity, or if maybe we don’t do it because of mutually assured destruction. Jefferson seemed to think the latter was a perfectly fine basis for peace in civilized society. I have just never been that comfortable with the idea, though it sure does seem to have something to it.</p>

<p>I find it impressive that YOU might want to go catfishin’. Whew. I have gone only a few times, and both times were real ordeals. Messy, messy, messy! Oh my goodness, the good ol’ boys I went with flat out required that if I was gonna go along, I’d have to learn how to roll up my sleeves and clean those things right along with them. I did it, both times, and had a ball because I was pushing pretty hard to add this stuff to my catalog. But since I have issues with the South that, based upon a brief discussion here I think are probably unfair, its been awhile. One thing about these catalogs is you gotta keep pushing stuff into them else over time they get empty and you lose what you once had. But, having had the whole catfishin’ thing once in, I am pretty confident I can easily get it back. It was a ball, I tell ya – especially eating them and stuff. But somehow, I think having my friends around to laugh at me and show me the ropes is what really made the time great. We’ll have to find some really good natured Southerners who know what they are doing and who won’t mind a novice mangulatin’ a catfish or two.</p>

<p>Now tea I can do right fine.</p>

<p>It has another advantage as well. More recruiting. My employer now does campus recruiting at 5 predominantly minority schools.</p>

<p>Three quick points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The situation at UCLA would be terrible if there was a quota limiting Blacks to 2%. But the only thing limiting Blacks to 2% are the Black applicants themselves (by not applying, not matriculating, or not being highly qualified enough to get accepted).</p></li>
<li><p>UCLA is said to be the most diverse city on the planet. Why is it assumed that if the students don't get the "Black perspective" in CLASS, they will not be getting it at all? Isn't it likely they will get it from their landlord, their bartender, their auto mechanic, their whatever? They are at college to learn about mechanical engineering or math or psychology or accounting; when did social indoctrination become a required subject?</p></li>
<li><p>This has been said a million times, but apparently it needs to be repeated: why is nobody wringing his hands over the dearth of conservative students and professors at a lot of colleges? The students at Brown and Wesleyan need to know that there is another side to the political coin as much as the students at UCLA need to know there is another side to the racial coin. Oh, I forgot, it would be impossible for the conservatives to be heard because they would get shouted down by hecklers.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>"This has been said a million times, but apparently it needs to be repeated: why is nobody wringing his hands over the dearth of conservative students and professors at a lot of colleges? "</p>

<p>your own explanations just a bit edited....</p>

<p>1.The situation at UCLA would be terrible if there was a quota limiting conservatives. But the only thing limiting conservatives are the conservative applicants themselves (by not applying, not matriculating, or not being highly qualified enough to get accepted).</p>

<p>2.UCLA is said to be the most diverse city on the planet. Why is it assumed that if the students don't get the "Conservative perspective" in CLASS, they will not be getting it at all? Isn't it likely they will get it from their landlord, their bartender, their auto mechanic, their whatever? They are at college to learn about mechanical engineering or math or psychology or accounting; when did political indoctrination become a required subject?</p>

<p>You're completely missing my point. I DON'T think it's a problem that Wesleyan and Brown are very liberal. If that's the way they want to go, fine. Likewise, I don't think it's a disaster that UCLA leans a certain way racially.</p>

<p>What I'm agruing against is the inconsistency of people thinking that a lack of racial diversity is a huge problem at UCLA, but these same people often don't see it as any problem at all if Conservative views are excluded or shouted down on certain campuses.</p>

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<p>What I see as the problem is that UCLA is a large and expensive state university, funded by the taxpayers in California - including a lot of African Americans. But what UCLA seems to be delivering is an educational opportunity that blacks increasingly either can't or don't want to enroll in. Shouldn't a public institution like UCLA do a better job of serving ALL the races and ethnic groups in California?</p>

<p>I honestly think that UCLA is serving African Americans fairly well, at least as well as people of other races, especially considering the many outreach programs targeted at them, and the programs created (not all by UCLA, certainly, some by alumni and other groups) to help them with various things (graduate and professional school, internships, etc). Certainly they could do more, but it's not as if they aren't serving African Americans in some way. And then you could consider transfer students and how many of them are African American.</p>

<p>Who says LA is the most diverse (racially? what kind?) city in the world?</p>

<p>^^With the outreach programs and such it can certainly be argued that UCLA is <em>trying</em> to serve African Americans. But what is apparent from the enrollment numbers is that they are failing. They need to think of something more and/or different. They could start by looking at the more successful UCs and see what they are doing.</p>

<p>But it's quite possible that more succesful UCs are succesful for other reasons, although I would agree that they should look into them (and probably have been for years). I ask again, if UCLA's outreach programs result in African Americans who otherwise wouldn't go to any college to enroll elsewhere, aren't they succesful? Is it essential that they all or many or even some go to UCLA? What if many of the kids that likely would not have gone to college all go to Howard, Berkeley, Harvard UCR and Cal State LA? I would still consider those programs to be succesful.</p>

<p>Drab, I've seen the "LA is the most ethnically diverse city in the world" claim in several magazines and on collegeconfidential several times. It makes some sense, as Asians, Hispanics, Whites, and Blacks are ALL well represented, as are immigrant groups from just about everywhere. New York is obviously also very diverse, but I doubt if the balance between the whites, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians is as even as in LA. My point was that if a student at UCLA doesn't get his recommended daily dose of diversity in the classroom, he/she certainly will on the streets of LA.</p>

<p>Coureur, I see your point. But it would seem that maybe the state of California has a responsibilty to offer higher ed to a wide variety of its citizens IN GENERAL. And it does so with an amazing array of UCs, CSUs, and 2-year colleges. I don't think it necessarily follows that EACH of those schools INDIVIDUALLY needs to be racially balanced. In other words, if a Black person can't get into UCLA, it's not like he/she needs to forget about attending a state college completely. In the LA area alone you've got Long Beach State, CS LA, Riverside, Fullerton, CalPolyPomona, Northridge, etc.</p>

<p>Why do so few black students who would likely be accepted decide NOT to apply to UCLA? </p>

<p>Why do so few white students who would likely be accepted decide NOT to apply to Howard University? </p>

<p>Some would conclude that BOTH must be because WHITE people are all racists! Don't they teach logic anymore?</p>

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<p>I don't think the fact there are cal states, lesser UCs, and JCs available should relieve UCLA of its obligations to serve all the residents of California. Why should any one race or ethnic group settle for seats on the back of the educational bus?</p>

<p>o.k. Dross, I officially give up on going catfishin. But I will find the courage to reply to post#262 which has more dissertations swimming in it than catfish in a college lake. The notion of a 'catalog' of preferred ideas of beauty(as I see it) is very profound and in fact an extension of your earlier post#200 where you describe "pockets of inferiority within their own heads" caused by not fitting in to the dominant 'catalog'. I of course was going to suggest that everyone struggles with fitting into that idea of what is preferred. This really is so obvious. But I want to point out that the experience of black kids regarding how they are seen is on the same continuum as all kids, who all struggle to fit in, even though I grant that black kids might well, according to your very palpable descriptions, suffer the not-belongingness more profoundly. But obviously all kids are going nuts trying to find acceptance, often despite the appearance of looking the way beautiful people are supposed to look. I was thinking that the acquisition of stuff, and indeed to some degree power itself, was really about creating an aura of beauty, that of being desirable, considering into what desperate behaviors this goal drives so many, beauty just meaning a ticket to acceptance,..</p>

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<p>Where does it state that UCLA has the obligations to serve all residents of California?
Which are the lesser UC's?. As far as I am concerned, all UC's are equally good and very capable of givine all qualified students a great education. They are not educational tools for ethnic groups, but for all qualified students who apply and matriculate.</p>

<p>*ome would conclude that BOTH must be because WHITE people are all racists! *
Havent you read the thread on the seattle school district?</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=197821&highlight=seattle+race%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=197821&highlight=seattle+race&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>coureur, if the admissions office doesn't think the rejected applicants (of any race) belong at UCLA, that's what they think. I don't think this in some way lessens UCLA's responsibility to do anything at all.</p>

<p>cbreeze, the lesser UC's are often UCR, UCSC, and UCM, but can mean all sorts of different things. If you're talking about Berkeley and UCLA, the lesser the UC's are all others. If you're talking about Berkeley, the lesser UC's (to many) are all other UCs. If you're talking about UCSD, generally you're excluding it, Berkeley, and UCLA when referring to "lesser UCs." Such is the way it is.</p>

<p>"Why should any one race or ethnic group settle for seats in the back of the educational bus?"</p>

<p>For the same reason that the kids who run slowly don't get track scholarships...they simply get beat out by the other contestants. A running race isn't held to make sure everybody feels included. Quite the opposite. There is competition in the world. Get used to it.</p>

<p>yeah, and I'm the first mexican to ride the yellow bus</p>

<p>
[quote]
1. The situation at UCLA would be terrible if there was a quota limiting Blacks to 2%. But the only thing limiting Blacks to 2% are the Black applicants themselves (by not applying, not matriculating, or not being highly qualified enough to get accepted).

[/quote]
I think it needs to be said, yet again, that the reason blacks often are not highly qualified enough for these schools (which causes them not to apply and therefore matriculate at them) is racism, subtle, overt, and existing across multiple centuries, right up to today. That sort of constant exclusionary pressure has certainly had a devastating effect on blacks and I think programs like AA recognize this. A tragedy takes place when we decide to give a perfunctory nod toward this fact, or worse, to blame blacks entirely for their problems. I certainly agree that since no one other than blacks can fix the problems in the black community, blacks must fix them. But I also think the “it's not my problem, so who cares?” posture too many other Americans are taking toward these problems is unhelpful. I obviously can’t know how I would respond to this issue were I white. But I’d like to think I would be a good enough student of American history to sense that a grave (and ongoing) injustice has occurred against black Americans and that as an American with them I need to do all I can to acknowledge it and help encourage them to rise above it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
2. UCLA is said to be the most diverse city on the planet. Why is it assumed that if the students don't get the "Black perspective" in CLASS, they will not be getting it at all? Isn't it likely they will get it from their landlord, their bartender, their auto mechanic, their whatever?

[/quote]
I do not think this is the assumption. As I have said in another place, students in many ways represent the best of us. They are the ones who, by great competition, find themselves in position to learn from others in a focused environment. They are often the most incisive of us. They are also quite often the most articulate. And when it comes to scholarship, they quite often have the most potential. Perhaps most importantly, being students, they can identify with all kinds of other students. So it seems desirable to have black people of this sort articulating their personal meanings of the black experience to others, since they probably can do it much more effectively than most. Also, not every black guy thinks of “blackness” in the same way. My kids sure don’t think of it as I do, and I really think this is a fantastic development. I think whites, and especially other blacks, can benefit a lot from coming in contact with these differences in perceptions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
They are at college to learn about mechanical engineering or math or psychology or accounting; when did social indoctrination become a required subject?

[/quote]
C’mon man. College ain’ no trade school, is it? It is a unique opportunity to expand yourself in a fairly controlled environment. Yeah. You learn all this other stuff, but what good is psychology, for example, when you haven’t really gotten the chance to experience, as closely as possible, how history can effect psychology? What good is calling yourself “educated” when you’ve lived such a cloistered life you haven’t even allowed yourself to be disabused of your illusions about people?</p>

<p>I met a guy many years ago whose name sounded Armenian to me. How did I know his name sounded Armenian? Because I once roomed with an Armenian in college and discovered a lot of their names ended in “-IAN”. This one little discovery has helped me meet quite a few Armenians since my college days. If something as simple as that can have a positive effect, imagine the potential effect more significant discoveries can have.</p>

<p>Because of my Armenian roommate, I picked up all kinds of amazing stuff, much of which I didn’t really know I was picking up until sometime afterward. Until meeting this guy, I had no idea at all about the whole Armenian</a> genocide thing. Here this young guy was still suffering mightily for something that happened back in 1915 to people who probably weren’t even his relatives. He was suffering because to this day too much of the world fails to acknowledge the past. Shoot, many don’t even know about it at all. The fact that I was black was a very powerful thing because I understood almost exactly what this guy was going through. And he knew what was really eating my goat too.</p>

<p>I still know this guy today, have met his parents, was in his wedding party, have met many of his relatives. He has brought his family to stay with mine and vice versa. There now is a part of the world that is no longer hidden to me, and this took place was almost wholly because of this one Armenian college roommate. When years later my kids started taking to a particularly bizarre rock group, the gap between our musical sensibilities was closed considerably once I found out the group was Armenian. That simple fact caused in me an automatic curiosity about the group. I wanted to learn the lyrics, to see what these guys were about. I can’t say the lyrics really make much sense to me, but I can get a little of it, and I am still willing to keep trying. Haha.</p>

<p>
[quote]
3. This has been said a million times, but apparently it needs to be repeated: why is nobody wringing his hands over the dearth of conservative students and professors at a lot of colleges?

[/quote]
Well, I think you need to question your assumptions here. Is this really true? I think some very powerful voices are wringing their hands about it. Even college administrators seem interested in having conservative views represented on campuses. But when it comes to professors, it is probably a different matter. Colleges are going for the most highly accomplished profs they can get. It is probably the case that most of these folks are on the left or left of center. Not that I believe the following, but purely to help you feel some of the discomfort I feel when my issues are dismissed as you’ve done, I say to you that maybe the reason why conservative professors aren’t as well represented as liberal ones is because of conservative professors themselves. They likely aren’t as highly qualified as liberals and so its just up to conservatives to get with the program.</p>

<p>Hopefully you can now see that this is no way to discuss this thing. If you think there is a bias against conservatism on colleges, I should just be willing to explore the bias as you see it, without just dismissing it by repeating my assumptions.</p>