A Startling Statistic at UCLA

Parents Forum
381

<p>yes you would be, but would your children or grandchildren feel the same way?</p>

<p>No one is denying that blacks as well as native Americans got raw deals in the past. But, that was PAST. One has to live in present and move on. Do you see such thing happening today to your children?</p>

<p>Race based affirmative action is as racist as the past descrimination. The pie for native blacks is shrinking. Not only from the recent asian/europeans immigrants, but from the black immigrants as well. I do not have the actual data, but it seems that black immigrants are squeezing AA that is supposed to help the native black population.</p>

382

<p>"Honor the French people." - Okay. My father fought in WWII for the freedom for everyone in this country to "honor the French people" (and liberated France, by the way). He was 30 years old when he was drafted. This was a person whose mother died when he was 9 and whose father was an alcoholic, therefore he was "raised" by a single immigrant grandmother in Chicago (with four brothers and sisters farmed out to foster care). He started work as a mailroom boy and worked his way up to a job in middle management, which he worked at for 46 years (yes, 46). His brother was killed in the war and is buried in France, as a matter of fact. Obviously, your daughter has been afforded some opportunities here, as, I assume, you have? I beg to differ that everyone in this country is a "racist." That is patent nonsense. Let's not get carried away here. I am beginning to wonder if you are putting us on.</p>

383

<p>I'm thinking the same thing about putting us on, hereshoping. Something's fishy about thinking the Hoover Dame and LBJ are going to carry the argument. I'm going take a break from this thread to give Dross some time to cook up some more excuses.</p>

384

<p>I'm typing this from France. I'm currently in Marseille on a business trip. I travel here a couple of times a year, and I find that the stereotype of the French being snotty about foreigners is way over blown. The vast majority of them are just as courteous, helpful, and patient with foreigners as the typical American.</p>

385

<p>The debate over race-based AA may never be settled. Interestingly, there's a new approach to AA under serious discussion (see the thread on "Admissions Revolution") that focuses on finding ways to increase diversity on campuses by making more seats available to low and low-middle income applicants. It's much harder to argue against giving a boost to low SES students of ALL colors.</p>

386

<p>Dross:</p>

<p>Your D should meet my nephews and nieces. They're mad for anything American. The even have milk and cereals for breakfast, quelle horreur! When I was a child, no one drank milk cold, and in fact, no one past the age of 6 drank milk. And cereals were unknown. My niece went back with jars of maple syrup. </p>

<p>But the French are just as racist as anyone. It's much harder for an African to get a job than for a white person with the same qualifications. It does not mean they cannot be courteous and patient with guests. </p>

<p>Did you hear the NPR piece by an African-American actress who's lived in Africa, England, Jamaica and the US? In Africa, she is treated well, because she is seen as "white." In France, she is treated better than Africans because she is thought of as American. In the US, she uses her English accent and is treated better than if she put on an American one. And so on. </p>

<p>Coureur: When I was in Aix, years ago, I was told of fights every weekend between whites and Africans in front of discos. Marseille, of course, is the heart of the FN.</p>

387

<p>jazzymom:</p>

<p>UCLA and the other UCs do use some 'life challenges' attributes in the admission decision. Although I don't think race should be a consideration on the admissions decision since it's racist, I do think that these life challenges should probably be taken into consideration. </p>

<p>An example might be; student A has a 4.4 GPA, and several sports and student B has a 4.1 GPA, no sports, but achieved the 4.1 GPA while working 30 hours per week and taking care of siblings. I could make a valid argument that person B may have demonstrated a higher level of performance than person A due to their workload and will likely succeed well in the challenging environment of a very selective college. This has nothing to do with race and assumptions about race shouldn't be made - i.e. it could be that the priviledged person A is black/Asian, etc. and that person B is white/Asian, etc. Rather than using an inderect attribute such as race that relies on generalities, one should use the direct attributes - in this case a poor socio-economic background. The less we pigeon-hole people based on race, the more progress we'll make toward someday becoming race-blind.</p>

388

<p>I understand the point you're making about the goal of a color blind society and your objection to AA based on race. </p>

<p>The "life challenges" approach is really the only method the most competitive UCs can use to bring a broader cross-section of students to the campuses of UCLA and Berkeley and S.D. Whether that effort is sufficient is a debate for others at this point. The public universities cannot legally use AA to put together the freshman class college officials might like to see. </p>

<p>That is why, I think, a consortium of private college officials have met to discuss what they see as a moral imperative for the private schools to do much more to reach down into the lower socio-economic realm of American society and put significantly more of those students into seats at highly selective colleges. Of course, to accomplish this, they are discussing a sea change in private competitive college admissions policies.</p>

<p>Again, read the article in the first post on the thread "Admissions Revolution." Maybe the private colleges will lead the way; we'll see.</p>

389

<p>"No one is denying that blacks as well as native Americans got raw deals in the past. But, that was PAST. One has to live in present and move on."</p>

<p>Who Sez?
I think Faulker got it right when he said:
"The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past."</p>

390

<p>
[quote]
Maybe the private colleges will lead the way; we'll see.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The private sector is wont to do so.</p>

391

<p>How can you say that the "life challenges" approach is the only method UCs have at bringing a broader racial selection to campus (or really, more non-whites and non-asians)? That's all they're legally allowed to do at the admissions stage, but they do other things at many other stages. Is everything before the admissions stage so insignificant that it shouldn't be remembered? How many students who aren't white and aren't asian who are local to Berkeley are there because of its outreach programs? What about the ones that benefit from free standardized test score tutoring, mentoring, community projects? The same is true of every UC i know about- my friend at UCI mentors for kids at Santa Anna high school and helps them with homework. And then there are all the programs and things for students in the schools or considering various occupations afterward. The UCs aren't just considering live challenges in admissions- now maybe you or someone else thinks they could do more, use the current funds more efficiently, that and/or put more money into what they have available, but that's another story.</p>

392

<p>Hereshoping:</p>

<p>The story you told about your father was moving, I am sure. He comes from the “Greatest Generation” they say. But I just don’t buy all this stuff about his fighting for my freedom. I strongly suspect he did no such thing. No way was that guy sitting in a muddy hole with bullets whizzing over his head because he just HAD to make sure old Drosselmeier was comfy and free back here in the good ‘ol US of A. Were America a nation full of Drosselmeiers, would your dad have lifted even a finger for us? I don’t mean to sound harsh here. I am just telling the American truth about it.</p>

<p>Now had your dad been black back in WWII, he very likely would have been crushed like most blacks of his day. He likely would not have been able to serve his country, other than as a cook or janitor, and his restrictions would have been placed on him strictly because of race. Every time a black man was rejected, likely a wife and several children had to live without food. Every time social services excluded a black family, some black kid felt the sting of hunger. And seeing their old man treated like this, they grew up to suspect that they, and people like them, really don’t matter in this country. That is the point I am making here.</p>

<p>Your dad worked at his mailroom job and climbed up the corporate ladder. I am sure he worked very hard. But had he been black, whites never would have allowed him to get within a mile of the ladder in the first place. That sort of extraordinarily brutal discrimination was everywhere, and it is what caused the Civil Rights Movement to explode beginning in the late fifties. It is also significantly responsible for many problems today.</p>

<p>I’d like you to post a link to the post wherein I am supposed to have said “everyone in this country is a ‘racist.’”. You will not be able to do this, of course, because I never said it.</p>

<p>I instead maintain that racism is built into the structure of American society so that people with white skin hit the ground here with multiple benefits that are pointedly denied blacks. It has always been like this. Your dad benefited from it, and so do you today. This was true last year. It was true in the last decade. It was true in the eighties, in the seventies, in the sixties, in the fifties, forties, thirties, twenties, in the 1890’s, in the 1880’s, in the 1870’s, in the 1860’s, and in the 1850’s it very likely would have caused you to be owned like a cow - were you black.</p>

<p>Sure my kid has had opportunities here. However they came, I ought not have to tell you that referencing my kid is no way to argue that the past does not matter and have a significant influence on whole groups of people who live in the present.</p>

393

<p>marite:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your D should meet my nephews and nieces. They're mad for anything American. The even have milk and cereals for breakfast, quelle horreur!

[/quote]
Hah! Okay, so I guess this is not exactly a French trend your nephews and nieces are engaging in.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But the French are just as racist as anyone. It's much harder for an African to get a job than for a white person with the same qualifications. It does not mean they cannot be courteous and patient with guests.

[/quote]
Ah. I see. Yes. I had heard sad stories about blacks in France and kinda feared for my kid as a result. In fact it seems racism is quite on the rise throughout all Europe. So I was quite concerned about my daughter visiting on her own. But she assured me she would use her “spidey sense” to keep herself safe. It is a small comfort to me, of course. But hey. I’ll take what I can get.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Did you hear the NPR piece by an African-American actress who's lived in Africa, England, Jamaica and the US? In Africa, she is treated well, because she is seen as "white." In France, she is treated better than Africans because she is thought of as American. In the US, she uses her English accent and is treated better than if she put on an American one. And so on.

[/quote]
Yes. I did hear this – not too long ago. I think it was a Terry Gross interview in fact, and it was quite fascinating. Still, I could not help but think these differing treatments were all superficial. Perhaps the actress was treated better in France due to her American citizenship. But if the French harbor great amounts of racism, it seems to me it would eventually extend to her also, regardless of her country. Likewise, here in the US regardless of accent. I think her comments about her treatment in her African country were probably most intriguing to me, since they spoke more to class than race.</p>

394

<p>Your dad worked at his mailroom job and climbed up the corporate ladder. I am sure he worked very hard. But had he been black, whites never would have allowed him to get within a mile of the ladder in the first place.
Isn't discrimination by sex, race or age illegal?
( but not sexual orientation)
I have been trying to get a job in my daughters school district- I have been a volunteer for over 8 years, but I haven't had a lot of luck finding anything despite what I assume are good recommendations</p>

<p>Most of the people who are doing the interviewing are minority-( the district is mostly minority) do I assume that they are controlling the ladder?</p>

395

<p>EK:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Isn't discrimination by sex, race or age illegal?
( but not sexual orientation)

[/quote]
Yeah. In recent years this has become illegal. But I am trying to point out that for the VAST majority of American history, this sort of discrimination was not just common. It was expected and aimed quite intensely at blacks. This means whites, for the VAST majority of American history, have had an extraordinary leg up when it comes to wealth accumulation. Blacks have never had anything of the sort. So I just don’t see the merit in arguments against AA based on how America has supposedly done all this stuff for blacks. The only thing I can see that is possibly legitimate in anti-AA arguments is that AA is potentially damaging to blacks. I think this is a real possibility and we need to look at it closely. But when it comes to how much America has done, I think we really need a reality check.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have been trying to get a job in my daughters school district- I have been a volunteer for over 8 years, but I haven't had a lot of luck finding anything despite what I assume are good recommendations. Most of the people who are doing the interviewing are minority-( the district is mostly minority) do I assume that they are controlling the ladder?

[/quote]
I don’t know the circumstances here in this specific case, and I don’t know what sort of job you are shooting for. Neither do I know the requirements for those jobs, or how plentiful they are. I think I recall you saying you have never gone to college. It could be this is influencing the situation. And, then again, it could be that the minorities in your area are indeed discriminating against you. I would look at all possibilities. We made such a mess of things, there is just no telling what is happening now.</p>

<p>But I am not exactly sure of the point. Are you saying that if you are being discriminated against, it means the centuries long discrimination against blacks is inconsequential to today? Or maybe you are saying that we ought not assume that blacks were discriminated against by whites, just as you ought not assume discrimination today? I am not following the thrust of your point.</p>

396

<p>Dross:<br>
It's interesting that you bring up the issue of racial bigotry in France because I think it's quite relevant to our discussion about discrimination here.<br>
When the great influx of immigrants from North Africa began in the late 1950's, much of France's political elite believed that the best way to deal with them was essentially, ignore em. For one thing, they were widely perceived as "temporary workers" (sound familiar?) Also, and more to the point, much of the French elite were convinced that they were building a "colorblind" society, and to take any concrete measures to alleviate what soon became almost apartheid conditions in many of the predominately North and West African communities was anathema to French values. Eventually they would assimilate, it was thought, even though little was done to help this process.
The recent French riots were in many ways the culmination of years of cultural pigheadedness on race. Everyone with half a brain knew potentially disastrous resentments had been simmering in the banlieues for years, but they ignored them, in part, because they believed that the American solution - Affirmative action, etc. - would actually make matters worst. Indeed, the French don't even know how many blacks and other ethnic minorities are in their country because, well, even collecting such information would be racist. (Fortunately, a recent ballot measure in California that would essentially do the same thing - forbid the government from even asking questions about race and ethnicity, was defeated.)
The thing is, many of the parents here seem to believe that they best way forward is to ignore the past - move on, get over it, stop whining, slavery days are over. Afirmative Action, racially targeted outreach programs, the whole plethora of government efforts to help blacks and other minorities are another form of intolerable discrimination. But the French tried that, and look what it got them.</p>

397

<p>Dross:</p>

<p>Class and race are highly intertwined. The black actress was treated as an honorary white in many countries. There used to be such a category in South Africa. A friend of ours was asked to go to SA by his British multinational company. He was asked about his race: Chinese, he said. A pity, he was told, if he were Japanese, he would have honorary white status, but not a Chinese. He declined to go.
I can tell you far too many stories of French racism to even start. But there was a movement many years ago called "Touche Pas a Mon Pote" and SOS Racisme aimed at defending the rights of Africans and Muslims. By the way, one of my nieces is married to a Senegalese, so I hear these stories from inside the family.
The US has a long history of racism, but other countries do, too.
Oh, and French schools were told, in the midst of riots, that they were to teach about the benficial aspects of colonial rule.
As for the schizophrenic French attitude toward McDo, as it's called in France, check out today's NYT. I recall my brother's horror when his daughter refused his offer to treat her to lunch at a 3-star restaurant and decided to have a Big Mac instead.</p>

398

<p>"The only thing I can see that is possibly legitimate in anti-AA arguments is that AA is potentially damaging to blacks. I think this is a real possibility and we need to look at it closely. But when it comes to how much America has done, I think we really need a reality check."</p>

<p>Agreed. To that effect, I would recommend a reading of Thomas Sowell’s "Black Rednecks and White Liberals"</p>

<p>It was recommended to be by a friend who shares a great many of the views you embrace. It was, for me, eye-opening and to the point.</p>

399

<p>"But I don't buy all this stuff about his fighting for my freedom. I strongly suspect he did not such thing. Were America a nation full of Drosselmeirs, would your dad have lifted even a finger for us? I don't mean to sound harsh here. I am just telling the truth about it."</p>

<p>Actually, no, you're not telling the truth about it. It's interesting you can see into our "people's" minds, hearts, and souls, but we can't get a glimse into your "people's." Sort of a double standard here, wouldn't you say?</p>

<p>And yes, you and your daughter have benefited from the death of <em>white</em> men for the right for "your" people to live <em>freely</em> in this country and enjoy the opportunities you have today. If you want to believe none of them wanted blacks included in the America they were fighting for, that's up to you.</p>

400

<p>I think I recall you saying you have never gone to college. It could be this is influencing the situation
I didn't graduate from high school, but I did take my GED and have two years+ of community college
In the past it has been permitted to directly apply to schools where you want to work- but that has been changed- I do know principals at several schools, but I don't believe in bypassing hoops-
I am just looking for a SPED asst job- which they have difficulty finding people to stay in - but i have been doing that kind of work as a volunteer.
My bringing up the race of the people who are interviewing is because it seems that although I think we would agree that there are other circumstances that minorities are discriminated against- but does that make them more likly to discriminate against others- especially those who dont look like them or less?</p>

<p>I am particulary sensitive to this issue because as I have mentioned before, virtually all the extra support program at my daughters school you need to be very low income and a minority OR just minority status ( including Asian who have highest GPA in district)
My daughter desperately needs extra support, she wants to attend college, and is smart but because of poor past teaching needs a little push.
Her school had a program that she qualified for, as having parents who didn't have a college background and as a student who had good attendance but was struggling in school.-
Being a minority for once, was not a criteria.
However, it required an interview with the both of us, with a AA woman, who was known as "very difficult" to put it nicely.
She didn't get in to the program- in fact out of the whole program at her school- none are white- unless you consider Hispanics to be white.
So I have had to borrow money to pay for tutoring outside the school day, whereas if she was in this program she could have gotten it for free, and had better contact with her school teachers besides.
While I agree that we need to be sensitive to racism- racism does not just include "against minorities"/</p>

<p>I have to say though that I believe the principal was aware of this and has taken steps to correct it- that have changed the program for next year and Id like to believe so that they can have someone who is less restrictive in charge</p>