A Startling Statistic at UCLA

Parents Forum
401

<p>"...blacks would never have been allowed to get near the ladder in the first place."</p>

<p>You know, I started out on your side, as I have personally worked for educational opportunities for blacks in my lifetime, but you are beginning to cross the line, it seems to me, and your intellectualizing to the nth degree does not change that.</p>

<p>I told this story to illustrate that some (<em>many</em>) white people did/do not have the luxury of worrying about the conditions of their black neighbors. In this particular case, it was a matter of survival. Having graduated form high school in <em>1929</em>, particularly having been dirt poor, my father grabbed onto a job and never let go of it.</p>

<p>I would be curious what you would have expected him to do at that time in his life to help blacks. Did he have the right to survive himself? To have a family of his own and support them?</p>

<p>In addition, why don't you admit that it's entirely possible that EK is the victim of reverse discrimination in her neverending quest to get a job in the district. Are you saying that it is not possible? </p>

<p>In my faith tradition (as they say). all people are equally capable of good and bad. Can you own up to anything at all that some of your "people" may have done that has contributed to the problems they are still facing today? We have owned up to ours, how about you?</p>

402

<p>
[quote]
In the past it has been permitted to directly apply to schools where you want to work- but that has been changed- I do know principals at several schools, but I don't believe in bypassing hoops-
I am just looking for a SPED asst job- which they have difficulty finding people to stay in - but i have been doing that kind of work as a volunteer.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So exactly what is he process now? Do you have to apply directly through your City's Board of Education?</p>

<p>I know in NYC, while the minimum Selection Criteria is a High School diploma or its recognized equivalent. </p>

<p>The following qualifications are preferred for the position: </p>

<p>An associate or baccalaureate degree, or 18 plus college credits </p>

<p>passing score on the New York Sate Assessment of Teaching Assistant Skills test (NYSATAS) or the Liberal Arts and Sciences Test (LAST) </p>

<p>Experience working with families and parents in the field of education </p>

<p>Demonstrated oral and written communication skills </p>

<p>Ability to work with a classroom team and take assignments from classroom teacher </p>

<p>Adaptability to changes in daily assignments </p>

<p><a href="http://www.nycboe.net/NR/rdonlyres/56856319-D284-4A2F-ABFF-57077DC5BDE8/0/JobPostingSubstituteEducationalParaprofessionalUPDATE121505.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nycboe.net/NR/rdonlyres/56856319-D284-4A2F-ABFF-57077DC5BDE8/0/JobPostingSubstituteEducationalParaprofessionalUPDATE121505.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It seems like EK is in a catch 22 because it seems to get a job as a SPED asst. that you have to already be one because it looks as if your city is only hiring incumbents or those who have been in the job and have been displaced and not taking on new people. If this is the case, ti probably doesnot matter what color you are, if you are not already hired by your board of Ed in this job, you can't seem to get this job.</p>

<p>one posting states:</p>

<p>*Only current retained or displaced SAEOP and PARAPRO employees who have the verified job title and FTE of this position, regardelss of work year are eligible to apply. (Substitutes and Hourly employees are not eligible.) Under the direction of a Special Education teacher or other assigned administrator. Assist in the instruction planning of the program and behavioral management of physically, emotionally and learning disabled students. Learn to provide instruction and a positive role model to students in basic living skills, social interactions and academic development. This job requires heavy lifting of students. Walking, standing, bending at the waist, kneeling and crouching to assist students. Restrain students who become physically aggressive. You will tutor individual and small groups of special education students in academic subjects; physical education, basic living skills and other assigned instructional areas. You may be required to change diapers and assist students in using the lavatory. Completion of 90 qtr. hour (60 semester hrs) of college credits, equivalent to two years of higher education.One year of related work experience. Under general supervision, plans and implements curriculum and educational programs for students. Assesses students' abilities and develops individualized educational plans consistent with treatment goals. Coordinates programs for therapeutic purposes; integrates overall developmental goals into the academic setting. Manages behavior of students to create a safe physical and emotional classroom environment
*</p>

<p><a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/employment/JobsLister?status=V&category=CLASPARA&keywords=&Submit2=Find%2BJobs&action=find%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.seattleschools.org/area/employment/JobsLister?status=V&category=CLASPARA&keywords=&Submit2=Find%2BJobs&action=find&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

403

<p>It isn't really that my quest is "neverending", but I am concerned about the education of SPED students in district- they aren't represented very appropriately, and many of them are much more capable than their education would let on.
I have to fight though- to not take on the attitude that one young caucasian girl upong being transferred from a private school with about 1/3 minorities to a public school with about 50 minorities.
She noticed that some of the students even in elementary school, were significantly less interested & prepared for their studies than her classmates in private school.
she was shocked and made a harsh comment
I think that reparations for generations are not what it takes for all students to move ahead.
I would like to see- more churches involved in the schools,lets see volunteers cross the bridge from teh business community to the community of the schools.
AA can only do so much- but education has to be a value and a priority, we have seen it often is for immigrant families that speak little English who have great difficulty communicating with the schools, it was a priority for our family, and we are proud to have our daughter be first generation college graduate despite her learning disabilities, and despite that we really have not been able to help her academically with her studies- in fact I went back to school when she was in elementary so I could keep up!</p>

<p>I don't agree with the way NCLB is being implemented/designed, but I have to admit it is trying to say that we have high standards for all students and they can meet them.
I am not worried so much about the amount of minorities at UCLA, ( gasp vaguely related to OP!)
I am worried about the numbers of students who don't receive their high school diploma-
that is where our concern should lie-
<a href="http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=79589%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=79589&lt;/a>

[quote]
Graduation rates already are significantly worse for boys than girls, and nearly half of Hispanic, African-American and Native American students never receive a high school diploma. The odds of graduating are less than 50-50 for students in high schools in major cities across the United States, including Baltimore.</p>

<p>There’s scant evidence yet to determine how high school reforms will affect graduation rates, but most education experts agree the nation’s dropout problem cannot be improved until states address one major issue: their failure to accurately track how many students who start high school actually graduate.</p>

<p>There are no national standards for measuring graduation rates and no federal oversight to make sure states report accurate graduation data, said Chester E. Finn Jr., president of the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation.</p>

<p>As a result, many states ignore students who drop out before the senior year when they calculate high school completion rates, resulting in inflated graduation rates. States have reported an average graduation rate exceeding 80 percent in recent years, far higher than independent measures, which estimate that the graduation rate is barely 70 percent.</p>

<p>"In effect, (states) report whatever numbers they like, however they want to report them, and there’s nobody outside checking to see if these are true or accurate," said Finn, whose foundation promotes charter schools and vouchers.</p>

<p>Sometimes the rates are inflated by counting GEDs and other alternative diplomas. However, using the number-of-freshman and number-of-seniors method, the National Center for Education Statistics calculates that 74 percent of public school students graduated on time in 2002-2003. The rates ranged from a low of 58 percent in South Carolina to a high of 86 percent in New Jersey.

[/quote]
</p>

404

<p>Kubakloth:</p>

<p>Your recent post was very interesting. Goodness gracious!</p>

<p>I understand the desire for a color-blind society. I’d like society to be color-blind too. My goodness, what I would give for the chance to walk outside my home, greet my neighbor, drive to work, shop, love my wife and children, with race being thought of no more than the color of my hair! It would be a wonderfully liberating thing to hear on the news “the robber is reportedly a black male, about six feet tall…” and simply hope they catch the guy. But that ain’t reality, and ignoring our history to act as if it never happened ain’t gonna make it reality either.</p>

405

<p>Marite:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Class and race are highly intertwined. The black actress was treated as an honorary white in many countries. There used to be such a category in South Africa.

[/quote]
I need you to understand something before I say what I am about to say. There are whites in this world whom I love with my whole heart. I love them more than I love myself. Nothing here on earth matters to me more than they, no black guy, no red, yellow, or blue guy – no nothing. I would be completely and forever lost were these whites no more. Just to be very clear on this, I say again, were these people to exist no more, the black person who now speaks to you would come to an immediate end. He may go on in body, but the thing that makes him what he is will die, leaving something else behind.</p>

<p>Yet being considered an “honorary white” represents to me a kick to my face. I just don’t think any self-respecting black guy would enjoy being considered an “honorary white”, as if being white is an innate honor beyond being black. That is why I think this actress’s reception as “white” by other cultures is superficial. They are not accepting the black woman at all. They are in fact attempting to erase her blackness and replace it, albeit symbolically, with “innately superior” whiteness.</p>

<p>That is kind of sad to me. I do understand how history affects us on this issue, and I don’t walk around in bitterness or with a chip on my shoulder about it. In fact, to meet me in person you’d likely be completely shocked that I hold the views I’ve shared here. But I just want to expose my view because I think the woman we are discussing here, like many blacks, perhaps does not yet see the need for a change on this point. I happen to think we blacks need to take the responsibility to change it by adding to the value of our metaphorical currency in the world. But, my goodness. LOL. We can’t even begin here as long as this “honorary white” stuff pleases us. There is something kind of sick about it. Don’t you think?</p>

<p>
[quote]
A friend of ours was asked to go to SA by his British multinational company. He was asked about his race: Chinese, he said. A pity, he was told, if he were Japanese, he would have honorary white status, but not a Chinese. He declined to go.

[/quote]
I intensely wonder if he would have gone had being Chinese conferred upon him the same “advantage”.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I can tell you far too many stories of French racism to even start. But there was a movement many years ago called "Touche Pas a Mon Pote" and SOS Racisme aimed at defending the rights of Africans and Muslims. By the way, one of my nieces is married to a Senegalese, so I hear these stories from inside the family. The US has a long history of racism, but other countries do, too.

[/quote]
Well, now I’m once again shaking in my boots here, marite. Haha. The French have my kid! What a little roller coaster I’m on.</p>

<p>But seriously, I recall reading an article about how when certain people would enter a restaurant or hotel or apply for a job, if they didn’t have a certain look (i.e. if they looked “ethnic”) they didn’t stand a chance. I also followed French politics for some time awhile back, and it seems to me I remember being enough alarmed by what I saw that I decided visiting the country was not exactly wise. But, despite it all, I am happy that my daughter went on ahead and did her thing anyway because it seems the French are showing their best selves to her.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Oh, and French schools were told, in the midst of riots, that they were to teach about the benficial aspects of colonial rule.

[/quote]
Whoa! You have GOT to be kidding! Now that is not something I have heard at all, not that I am that plugged into French society. But whew!</p>

<p>
[quote]
As for the schizophrenic French attitude toward McDo, as it's called in France, check out today's NYT. I recall my brother's horror when his daughter refused his offer to treat her to lunch at a 3-star restaurant and decided to have a Big Mac instead.

[/quote]
Humans. Your niece was perhaps so accustomed to fine food that she just wanted a little trash at that time. I don’t get out a lot these days, but I have had my share of the best restaurants in the world and I am solidly with your brother. I just can’t see the attraction to McDonald’s or any of the fast food joints America has produced. If given the choice between a three star restaurant and McDonald’s, well, you can just hang it up. I’ll see stars every single time.</p>

<p>I’ve tried making French stuff myself, and hope my daughter can show me a thing or two when she returns. But yall French are too crafty for me. I’m like a bull in the kitchen. Too heavy handed and spirited, which is to say I am just amazing at southern Italian food.</p>

406

<p>FountainSiren:</p>

<p>Hey. I see you’re in Hanover, which means you’re at one of my favorite schools of all time - right? Yeah. I’ve read this book. In fact, I have read quite a few Sowell books over the last few months. I think Sowell’s position on black culture is pretty compelling. But its kinda funny. I only recently stumbled on Sowell and so after reading some of his stuff I was fairly excited about it. But mentioning it to some friends almost got me chopped in half. I think Sowell makes a lot of powerful points. But in view of history, I don’t know if I am ready to take the same Laissez Faire approach to blacks that he longs to apply to the economy. Still, the guy is really bang on when it comes to the destructiveness of redneck culture and how blacks can ill afford to hang onto our brand of it so fervently. Man, we need to grow – like yesterday, and we need to give ourselves some serious freedom to speak, date, and act exactly as our minds wish, and yet remain black. We have just got to add this sort of freedom to the definition of blackness.</p>

407

<p>Hereshoping:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Actually, no, you're not telling the truth about it. It's interesting you can see into our "people's" minds, hearts, and souls, but we can't get a glimse into your "people's." Sort of a double standard here, wouldn't you say?

[/quote]
Not at all. I am looking over the history and failing to see your father defining those times as you imply he did. It has nothing to do with looking into anyone’s mind. It seems to me the history does not support your implication. But that is just my view of it. If you think otherwise, then its okay by me.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And yes, you and your daughter have benefited from the death of <em>white</em> men for the right for "your" people to live <em>freely</em> in this country and enjoy the opportunities you have today.

[/quote]
Well yeah. I probably benefited from the deaths of today’s car accident victims and victims of 911, since these people left behind resources that may become available to me. But that is not to say these folk went out and ‘died for me’ as you are trying to claim your folks did. I just don’t think the evidence will support such a fantastic claim. What I think you do here is to over romanticize the struggle of soldiers in war in order to try to disarm my point on racism and discrimination. You are presenting the thing as if your folks looked over the vast racial quilt of America, and breathing in the air of cherished diversity stood up and decided to just go out and die for it all. C’mon man. I’m as patriotic as the next guy, but I think all this Jingoistic enthusiasm here is just baseless. I also think it tends too often to drown out what fighting men truly go through as they lay screaming in the dirt with their guts pouring out. They aren’t doing this for me, and we all know it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you want to believe none of them wanted blacks included in the America they were fighting for, that's up to you.

[/quote]
Oh now c’mon guy. I never said none of them wanted blacks in America.</p>

408

<p>EK:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I didn't graduate from high school, but I did take my GED and have two years+ of community college. In the past it has been permitted to directly apply to schools where you want to work- but that has been changed- I do know principals at several schools, but I don't believe in bypassing hoops-

[/quote]
But maybe in your district bypassing hoops is the way its done. That seems to be the case in very many regions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am just looking for a SPED asst job- which they have difficulty finding people to stay in - but i have been doing that kind of work as a volunteer. My bringing up the race of the people who are interviewing is because it seems that although I think we would agree that there are other circumstances that minorities are discriminated against- but does that make them more likly to discriminate against others- especially those who dont look like them or less?

[/quote]
It is really difficult for me to say in this specific case. You see, I have incurred some seriously brutal racism, and the pain of it has caused me to just be honorable to people just for the sake of honor. I have had difficulties with the whole dad thing, and the pain of that has caused me to be hyper-loyal and hyper-nurturing as a father and husband. So I can’t just say that because these black folks have suffered discrimination they are trying to nail you with it. I certainly would suspect this possibility, but I just am not in good enough position to have a decent enough idea whether this is in fact going on.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My daughter desperately needs extra support, she wants to attend college, and is smart but because of poor past teaching needs a little push.Her school had a program that she qualified for, as having parents who didn't have a college background and as a student who had good attendance but was struggling in school.- Being a minority for once, was not a criteria.

[/quote]
Yeah. Okay. Now I see how an exclusive program for blacks could really nail a white person. And yes, I am kinda angry about it because you seem like this really dear woman. I think from the picture you are painting here, trying to see the thing solely from your vantagepoint, I think these people ought to help you and not have all these racial barriers locking you and your kid out.</p>

<p>
[quote]
However, it required an interview with the both of us, with a AA woman, who was known as "very difficult" to put it nicely. She didn't get in to the program- in fact out of the whole program at her school- none are white- unless you consider Hispanics to be white.

[/quote]
Hmmm. Well, as I said in my last post to you, it could be these folks are discriminating against you based on race. I would certainly keep this in mind as a distinct possibility. The problem is from my vantagepoint, I can’t see your circumstance in relation to those of the people around you. They may perceive you as quite wealthy. Indeed, in relation to them you may be quite wealthy, which would likely cause them to favor those who are a lot less fortunate.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So I have had to borrow money to pay for tutoring outside the school day, whereas if she was in this program she could have gotten it for free, and had better contact with her school teachers besides.

[/quote]
Right. But it could be the case that these folks knew you could borrow money to pay for tutoring. They may also have been aware that others were a lot more desperate, unable to borrow anything.</p>

<p>
[quote]
While I agree that we need to be sensitive to racism- racism does not just include "against minorities"/

[/quote]
I am of two minds on this. I think you need to have power in addition to a difference in race to be a racist. But, as you have shown here, it seems possible for people who historically haven’t been in position to be racist, to actually be racist. Hmmm. That is a kind of wicked sign of progress if you ask me, though we need to keep in mind that your situation here is very narrow and not nearly as commonplace as racism whites have exacted upon blacks. For every situation like yours, ten thousand blacks can recount a dozen instances of overt racism. It is that ubiquitous racism that causes many of the problems blacks are facing nationwide.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have to say though that I believe the principal was aware of this and has taken steps to correct it- that have changed the program for next year and Id like to believe so that they can have someone who is less restrictive in charge

[/quote]
Good. I am very glad to hear this.</p>

409

<p>Hereshoping:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I told this story to illustrate that some (<em>many</em>) white people did/do not have the luxury of worrying about the conditions of their black neighbors. In this particular case, it was a matter of survival. Having graduated form high school in <em>1929</em>, particularly having been dirt poor, my father grabbed onto a job and never let go of it.

[/quote]
I am just not following you here. Why are you mentioning this? I certainly have no moral authority to fault your dad for anything. I honor him for keeping his obligation to you and your family. The guy was just taking any benefit he could get in order to fulfill his duty. My point is that he had this benefit, that he used it to benefit you, and that you are moving forward in force to this very day because of it. Millions of blacks were deliberately denied the same benefit, which meant their wives and children suffered because of official American law. They suffered physically, and especially mentally. To this day those blacks and their children are still suffering.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I would be curious what you would have expected him to do at that time in his life to help blacks. Did he have the right to survive himself? To have a family of his own and support them?

[/quote]
I would not have expected him to do a thing. In fact, had he done something I would have been completely in shock. Your dad did exactly what I would have done. He took what he could and raised his family, giving you the hope and confidence in your country that you have today. MANY MANY blacks were not nearly so fortunate. Many MANY of their children have little confidence today.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In addition, why don't you admit that it's entirely possible that EK is the victim of reverse discrimination in her neverending quest to get a job in the district. Are you saying that it is not possible?

[/quote]
Not at all. I have certainly already admitted this possibility in two posts prior to this one. I am not saying blacks are incapable of evil. I am saying that a lot of the blame people are trying to lay at the feet of blacks is just misplaced. Before we blame blacks, we need to get a handle on the wholesale destruction that America rained down on these people for so many centuries.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In my faith tradition (as they say). all people are equally capable of good and bad. Can you own up to anything at all that some of your "people" may have done that has contributed to the problems they are still facing today? We have owned up to ours, how about you?

[/quote]
Well, you know, contrary to what you may think, I consider you my people. I just think you are blaming some of your people without seeing the big picture.</p>

410

<p>I believe you are being disingenuous here by saying you have "no moral authority to fault your dad for anything."
That is exactly what you have been doing for all these pages; if not that, then what?
"The guy was taking any benefit he could to fulfill his duty."
What benefit?
Were blacks denied an education in 1929?
"He took what he could" - what, a job?
"Million of blacks were denied the same benefit."
Were blacks denied all jobs in 1929?
How, then, did they survive at all, since slavery was abolished over fifty years prior, and welfare payments were not provided, according to you, until very recently in this country?
You did not receive the "benefit" of an education in this country? Your daughter has not received that "benefit?" Have you or your daughter been denied jobs in this country?<br>
"He used it to benefit you, and that you are moving forward in force to this day because of it."
And you have not used your benefit to benefit your daughter?</p>

<p>"A lot of the blame people are trying to lay at the feet of blacks is just misplaced."</p>

<p>I guess you are saying <em>some</em> is? What part is?</p>

<p>In your opinion, what can blacks themselves do NOW, with all their baggage acknowledged, to help themselves at this particular moment in time (2006).</p>

411

<p>I think I'll do as others have done, and give you a rest. I am amazed that people aren't screaming about the stereotypes and generalizations you are using in your arguments. In other places on this board, people are consistently called on that. For some reason, you're haven't been.</p>

412

<p>I've always had very good experiences with the French people. And the truth is your daughter will learn much more French because they'll make her practice!</p>

413

<p>"In your opinion, what can blacks themselves do NOW, with all their baggage acknowledged, to help themselves at this particular moment in time (2006)."</p>

<p>I don't think Dross has any answers, only generalizations and revisitng past. If everything he thinks is true, then neither he nor his daughters would be at the places they are today.</p>

414

<p>Hereshoping:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I believe you are being disingenuous here by saying you have "no moral authority to fault your dad for anything."

[/quote]
Okay. There seems nothing more I can do with this then.</p>

<p>
[quote]
That is exactly what you have been doing for all these pages; if not that, then what?

[/quote]
I have been very clear that the issue concerns the systemic racism that blacks have been subjected to by American society, including local, state and federal governments, for almost the entire time blacks have existed in America. I am not accusing your father of anything. Shoot. I don’t even know the man, have never read anything about him until you inexplicably brought him up.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"The guy was taking any benefit he could to fulfill his duty."
What benefit?

[/quote]
A job, the ability to provide his family a home and 47 years of stability. These things were pointedly denied millions of blacks and by official American policy.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Were blacks denied an education in 1929?

[/quote]
It depends on what you mean by “education”. You can get an “education” just by getting hit in the head with a hammer. But we are not legitimately able to exploit the elasticity of the term “education”, confusing the meaning of the word as it applies to both whites and blacks. The word in fact meant very different things in these contexts, at least prior to Brown. Many blacks were indeed denied education. But those who attended schools only received a bare fraction of the funding given to white schools. Black teachers were paid a literal fraction of the payment given to white teachers. Black students studied in schools that were grossly under funded or unfunded, with black parents having to pay for support out of their own pockets – unlike whites. Here we see, once again, Affirmative Action that promotes whites to the detriment of blacks, and it lasted for almost the entire history of public education.
<a href="http://brownvboard.org/research/handbook/prelude/prelude.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://brownvboard.org/research/handbook/prelude/prelude.htm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.lva.lib.va.us/whoweare/exhibits/brown/road.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lva.lib.va.us/whoweare/exhibits/brown/road.htm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.virginia.edu/insideuva/2004/04/greenberg.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.virginia.edu/insideuva/2004/04/greenberg.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
"He took what he could" - what, a job? "Million of blacks were denied the same benefit."Were blacks denied all jobs in 1929?

[/quote]
The point is that very many millions of blacks were denied the same benefit given to men like your father, and they were denied it because of race. Welfare services were denied them, but given to whites, and so were most jobs. When the New Deal was implemented, it deliberately set out to exclude vast numbers of blacks, which gave men like your father a significant leg up over them, which gave people like you a significant leg up over those black people’s children, which now gives your kids today a significant leg up over very many black children today.</p>

<p>
[quote]
How, then, did they survive at all, since slavery was abolished over fifty years prior, and welfare payments were not provided, according to you, until very recently in this country?

[/quote]
The black church was vital to the very lives of these people. Without it, I dare say many more blacks would have perished than actually did. But those blacks who did have jobs had jobs that certainly did not allow them the 47 years of stability that your father enjoyed, which fact gave your father a significant advantage over them, which gave you a significant advantage over very many of your black counterparts, which today gives your children a significant advantage over very many black children, etc., etc…</p>

<p>
[quote]
You did not receive the "benefit" of an education in this country? Your daughter has not received that "benefit?" Have you or your daughter been denied jobs in this country?

[/quote]
We are talking about the effects of history on groups, not on mere individuals. Some people can take more than others. This still does not eliminate the fact of the disparities I am talking about and their effects on today.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"He used it to benefit you, and that you are moving forward in force to this day because of it." And you have not used your benefit to benefit your daughter?

[/quote]
See above.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess you are saying <em>some</em> is? What part is?

[/quote]
I really don’t understand this question.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In your opinion, what can blacks themselves do NOW, with all their baggage acknowledged, to help themselves at this particular moment in time (2006).

[/quote]
They should do whatever the rest of us do to help themselves. I never said otherwise. The point I am trying to make is that that “baggage” you keep just dismissing all the livelong day is keeping a lot of these people from doing what you might think they need to do. They don’t care and they don’t care because of the history of racism that has been just dumped on them for almost the entire time they have been here. I am more concerned now for their children because some of those kids are more resilient than others and could use a leg up to make their way out of the mess America has created. So, while I have misgivings about it, I think another thing blacks can do to help themselves is keep pressing as hard as they can to preserve Affirmative Action.</p>

415

<p>If you care to listen, the reason I brought my father up was to try to explain to you why many people resent being told over and over that the black experience is different. I believe it was different, yes, but many people have struggled mightily in the good ol' USA just as blacks have. That's why it's a little hard for some people to swallow whole and accept that at this point blacks are just ready to give up, or they're tired, or they no longer "care," as you have explained.</p>

<p>On a side note, no one in my family at that dreadful time in our history (the Great Depression) ever took welfare money (the "dole" as they called it then), nor did they have anything to do with the New Deal. In fact, my father, a staunch Republican, detested Roosevelt. Nor did he take advantage of the GI bill. Why do you assume all whites have benefited from government money? I think your idea that government provided for most whites at that time is wrong, though I would have to look up the numbers. Most people got through the best they could, did what they could to survive, without the government. </p>

<p>Nor have all whites owned property. I have aunts and uncles who rented their entire lives. </p>

<p>You make a lot of assumptions here, in addition to generalizations. Maybe you should listen to some white people's stories before "dismissing them all the livelong day."</p>

<p>Also, I'm sure we'd like to listen to some <em>specifics</em> about how blacks can help themselves (other than Affirmative Action and "doing what the rest of us do") in 2006. Any ideas?</p>

416

<p>Hereshoping:</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you care to listen, the reason I brought my father up was to try to explain to you why many people resent being told over and over that the black experience is different. I believe it was different, yes, but many people have struggled mightily in the good ol' USA just as blacks have.

[/quote]
But none of them were enslaved from 1619 to 1865, called inferior animals and treated by people of a different race literally like animals for all that time. None of them endured this, and that just HAD to have had a devastating effect on these people that I think you are too eager to just overlook.</p>

<p>Moreover, none of these people have had added to that sordid history profoundly brutal discrimination lasting from 1870 right up to 1970 and beyond. And none of them have had to endure the legacy of that mistreatment either. The experience of blacks in America is in many ways radically different from that of whites. Men like your dad could endure hardship because they had hope. Very many black men were just plain broken, just as vast numbers of whites would be had they and their wives and their parents and their children been subjected to the same mistreatment. These broken people are just raising more broken people in a continuing cycle.</p>

<p>
[quote]
That's why it's a little hard for some people to swallow hole and accept that at this point blacks are just ready to give up, or tired, or they no longer "care," as you have explained.

[/quote]
Okay. If you can’t accept it, you can’t accept it. I think it is still true, nevertheless.</p>

<p>
[quote]
On a side note, no one in my family at that dreadful time in our history (the Great Depression) ever took welfare money (the "dole" as they called it then), nor did they have anything to do with the New Deal. In fact, my father, a staunch Republican, detested Roosevelt. Nor did he take advantage of the GI bill. Why do you assume all whites have benefited from government money?

[/quote]
I assumed no such thing. I am just using your father as an example of the vastly different experience that took place at a time when most blacks were suffering mightily. The fact that your father could afford to turn his nose up at the New Deal actually supports my position because, being subjected to common and overt job discrimination, very few blacks could afford the same thing in America. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Nor have all whites owned property. I have aunts and uncles who rented their entire lives.

[/quote]
There is a lot more to cultural capital than just money. The way blacks have been treated by society, including the American Government, has a tremendous effect on how blacks perceive the country. It affects their belief in America, their initiative, their willingness to save, their hope for the future. I know we wish to dismiss this, but it still exists.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You make a lot of assumptions here, in addition to generalizations. Maybe you should listen to some white people's stories before "dismissing them all the livelong day."

[/quote]
When those whites have as a group undergone the history I have mentioned above, with people of another race dominating them, raping their mates and children, then I will be very interested in how they, as a group, recover from these hard times. Until then, they will be people who are trying to realize hopes that a lot of blacks just no longer have.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, I'm sure we'd like to listen to some <em>specifics</em> about how blacks can help themselves (other than Affirmative Action) in 2006. Any ideas?

[/quote]
What is the point? Sure I have ideas and am actually living them out. But these ideas mean nothing to people who are destroyed. So listing them here will be futile. I think it is more important to underscore the issues I think are more relevant to the thread because I have in mind many of the children of these destroyed people, which children I think could be helped in at least two ways by programs like Affirmative Action.</p>

417

<p>"I think another thing blacks can do to help themselves is keep pressing as hard as they can to preserve Affirmative Action."</p>

<p>You can only play being a 'victim' for a while.</p>

418

<p>
[quote]
If you care to listen, the reason I brought my father up was to try to explain to you why many people resent being told over and over that the black experience is different.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But for many blacks their experience was different.</p>

<p>you asked</p>

<p>
[quote]
Were blacks denied an education in 1929?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I can talk from my parents experience growing up in florida and georgia the answer was yes.</p>

<p>As many blacks at this time were in the south, working on farms. Many children did not attend school because you had to be out in the fields to work the harvest. "School" was a one room classroom where the older students cooked, and took care of the younger students while trying to get their lesson. I remember my mother going to school as far as 8th grade because any thing after that meant that you had to go to school in town, and you had to have money to go to school in town. Her father could not afford it.</p>

<p>In Florida, in the 1940s, black parents successfully sued to get their kids' school year as lengthy as white kids' school years were. (Black kids were by law going to schools only 6 months a year in order to be available to plant and harvest crops.)</p>

<p>For many, the only book they had was the bible, and many were not able to "read" it but rather recite scriptures, they had heard in church through out the year. It was also not unusual for people to not have finished high school.</p>

<p>I remember in the 60's when my older brothers were bused to school in Bensonhurst and Bay Ridge brooklyn, and they had to run for the bus on the way home as they and their friends were chased by white kids on a daily basis. Every black and hispanic adult I know in Brooklyn who attended FDR, South Shore, Sheepshead bay, madision, Bay ridge, Lincoln, New Utrech in the late 60s and early 70s can tell a similar story. </p>

<p>Hell, I can tell you about the number of times I have heard frm other white parents when I brought my child to school in Manhattan ask me "why do you bring her all the way into the city to come to school?' . My response was that my tax dollars helped pay for it and I am just making sure I get the bang for my buck.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"He took what he could" - what, a job? "Million of blacks were denied the same benefit."Were blacks denied all jobs in 1929?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As I stated in my previous answer, many blacks worked in the fields in the south for their keep. Those that came "north" often worked as live in domestics, or were able to get a little "days work' cleaning houses.</p>

<p>I remember as a little girl asking my mother about the depression since both my parents also lived through it. Her answer was the depression did not affect them at all because they never had any money to lose. They were essentially living off of the land any way (grew crops, had a few chickens) so they ate every day and they were still working the fields in the south.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In fact, my father, a staunch Republican, detested Roosevelt. Nor did he take advantage of the GI bill. Why do you assume all whites have benefited from government money?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My mother has 6 brothers all served in the military. All fought and were decorated soilders in world war II, came back to the south where they were still treated as less than second class citizens, not even allowed to vote, sit in the back of the bus, drink from segregated fountains, and wasn't even offered a new deal so that they could turn it down.</p>

<p>But one of the things that I really have a time wrapping my mind around is those that now decry the same affirmative action system that gave them a leg up. Keep in mind the college admissions processes at elite schools were never solely based on merit but privilege, wealth and whose your daddy.</p>

419

<p>Actually many who came north worked in the mills and auto plants of Detroit, Chicago, Gary, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Philadelphia, and New York. That was the big attraction. As those closed or cut back you had a loss of income for many families as those jobs were impossible to duplicate.</p>

420

<p>Drab:</p>

<p>You're correct about the many outreach programs by the UCs. Another one is the Preuss school on the campus of UCSD. This school is a grade 6-12 prep school open to only low-income people. The (I quote from their website) "Preuss 2004/05 demographics were: 59.5% Hispanic, 12.9% African American, 21.7% Asian, 6% White." The idea behind the school is for the students to hopefully matriculate to UCs or other selective colleges.</p>

<p>Many of those knocking the UCs are reacting to the headlines, don't know the facts, haven't examined the demographics, and aren't taking a serious look at the other selective colleges around the country that all are faced with similar issues of a lack of competitive URMs applying/accepting to these colleges in proportion to the demographics of the area. Many are also not focusing on the root issue and would rather blame the 'messenger', which in this case is the admissions department of a highly selective university which is saddled with telling the hard truth about the qualification levels of the applicants when race is excluded as a factor.</p>