<p>forgot to add the link</p>
<p>
[quote]
And in fact, one can make the argument that AA polarizes more than it diversifies. There are arguments both ways, but diversity for diversity's sake is a suspect value - no one seemed to value it when I was a minority at the All American level in the college event I participated in
[/quote]
The issue here is not diversity for its own sake. The issue concerns fairness. Many would value diversity in your case if the only reason you were a minority was because people like you were historically excluded purely because of your race. For the longest time, for example, people were concerned about black representation in golf and tennis because of historic racism in both sports. On the other hand, I dont think I have ever heard of anyone complaining about the lack of black Olympic skiers, though I doubt anyone seriously thinks blacks cant ski at the topmost levels. Few, if anyone, complains about black participation in the Scottish games, though I hardly doubt anyone thinks blacks would not do very well at these sports. Blacks have historically had the imagination to participate in many sports and were nevertheless denied the chance to participate in them. They were denied the chance purely because of race. Where there is a sense of unfairness, there are usually a relative few people who want to address it. In the classroom, unfairness was and in many ways still is, an everyday affair. That is why we have problems, and those problems are affecting blacks across the board. AA is trying to soften the effects of the problem. I dont think anyone claims it is a total solution.</p>
<p>A second reason people arent valuing diversity in your case is because there is a distinct difference between academics and the relatively narrow pursuit of athletics. The former encompasses the broad range of human experience, in which blacks are necessarily a part. We want blacks included in it because their lives exist, their strengths and weaknesses are part of our society. Athletics are just narrow rules and physical procedures within an arbitrary system of entertainment.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But really, what this is all about is that some institutions are highly competitive and selective. And they will continue to be. And if they no longer engage in AA, the numbers are not there to support any reasonable number of URM's matriculating.
[/quote]
I beg to differ. It is not all about this. Blacks exist as part of our society. Many of them have interesting perspectives as a result of history and how they are responding to the social forces presently. They were here in our society before every other group, except for the English and the Native Americans. They have something valuable to contribute to the ongoing discussion concerning who we are, what it means to be educated, and especially what it means to be human. Any decent school is going to put a very high value on their perspective, and seek ways to mitigate the discrimination that has historically kept their perspective from being heard. AA is just a tool some schools are using until such a time as it is no longer needed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The problem is the shortage of highly qualified (note I say highly qualified, and not just qualified) applicants. And even if state schools go back to the good old days of AA, the problem of the slim applicant pool won't evaporate. But that is the elephant in the room, isn't it? And that is the problem, isn't it?
[/quote]
I find it fascinating how easily our assumptions blind us, depending upon our experience. What looks to you like an elephant, looks as small as a mouse to me. My own experience blinds me to how you can see an elephant in the little mouse of a slim applicant pool. That is because from my viewpoint, I live with the weight of a real elephant every single day of my life. I know what an elephant feels like, and it aint no flippin slim applicant pool.</p>
<p>The elephant in the room-- the big old smelly creature that everyone keeps trying to overlook -- is the effect on blacks that the most virulent and lengthiest racism in the history of the Americas has caused. The real problem is not at all the slim applicant pool. The slim applicant pool is a mere symptom of the real problem. But very few wish to deal with it. Were we to deal with the devastating effects of the specific brand of racism that America dumps on blacks, we would never lack for large portions of high performers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is not whether 200 extra URM's go to UCLA (although that bothers folks attending and working at UCLA). Lets go after and fix the real problem - as long as black kids (and to an almost similar degree, Hispanic kids) are graduating from high school at achievement levels 4 grades below those of white and asian kids, we have a big time problem to solve - one that won't be fixed by lowering admission standards to a handful of elite schools.
[/quote]
What you are saying here is that we ought to discard AA because it does not solve the problem. But AA is not really designed to solve the problem. It is ameliorating some of the effects of the problem. Whether it most effectively does the job is not clear to me. I have issues with it. But I like that it at least aims to help. I am not sure if ending it will do better for blacks than keeping it. Id rather end it much more slowly than perhaps you would because I sense that moving too rapidly could disrupt any good that has already come of the program. Also, unlike you, I do not think it is an either/or matter that we must end AA to try something else.</p>
<p>As for lowering standards I do not think admissions standards are being lowered at the elite schools because I think admissions are being valued on much more than mere GPA and test scores. I think it has always been this way. I am not convinced that the good ol boys of 1950s Yale are so much more stellar in scholarship than modern Yalies due to AA. In fact, I suspect Yalies of the past probably could not even get into the Yale of today by some rigid quantitative standard.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lets talk about tough stuff - including out-of wedlock births that generally condemn kids to a life of poverty and little opportunity.
[/quote]
If you really wish to talk tough stuff, talk racism, including the centuries long oppression that specifically forced blacks into speaking with a slaves dialect, which dialect has extended into the black English in use today, which English is having a devastating impact on how black kids decipher words and interpret literature, which is destroying test scores. Fight against this, you will have your high performers, and a lot of this other stuff will fall into place too. I know what I am talking about here. A high performing kid is just gonna be about more than drugs and hooking up. He is gonna dream bigger than low performing kids. He is gonna spend his time thinking, planning, working for even better things. If AA is in place, he is more likely to find himself surrounded by academic resources that enable him to realize many of his dreams. He will marry, and then teach his kids his values because those values will really mean something to him. The trajectory of his entire linage is likely to change from what history had doomed it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And we operate in a global, incredibly competitive economy. Talk of lowering standards to help one group out just won't make any sense in the long run.
[/quote]
I dont think standards are being lowered at all. From what I can see, these schools have a quantitative range within which all students must exist. That range is not lowered by AA. In fact, I think it likely has narrowed since the days when John Kerry and George W. Bush attended college. These guys got into Yale with what, something like 1100 SATs? I dont think anything close to this is happening today. And its not like they were great scholars while at Yale, pulling down boatloads of Cs and Ds. Yet both men have accomplished fantastic things. I suspect the Yale of their day, as it does today, accepted them because quantitative scores were only a part of the requirement making up Yales standards. Those standards are not being lowered just because Yale has decided to accept a handful of black kids who are likely scoring a lot higher than Dubya.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find AA proponents amusing (although I do see their viewpoints). The legal and political and even demographic (we have such a diverse population now) landscapes just won't support AA as we know it much longer. And those who desperately argue for it are akin to Sovietologists just before the fall of the Berlin Wall.
[/quote]
What you seem to be saying here is that one should give up on AA in principle because no one will support AA in the future. I dont think it is the mark of intellectual integrity to abandon a principle just because one thinks the world is going to reject it. Even if the world ends AA, I think the principle (not necessarily the effect) under-girding it is worthy of a defense.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Could I be wrong? Maybe. But I sure as heck would bet on the fall of AA. And if that is the case, should not the focus be on how to fix the problem - the real problem?
[/quote]
Seems to me we should keep AA and also focus on the real problem. I dont think there is a single silver bullet here. We can whine about resources but hardly anyone whined when we decided to spend almost a quarter of a billion dollars every single day on an endless war against a country that didnt do anything to us. We can easily find the resources to wage an endless war, but we lack them to take care of the real problem? Thats messed up, man.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I dont think I have ever heard of anyone complaining about the lack of black Olympic skiers, though I doubt anyone seriously thinks blacks cant ski at the topmost levels</p>
<p>Interestingly, my daughters previous public school had a ski program, that was part of the experiential learning focus. They had , had this program for about 15 years, holding it on about 5 fridays during a 3 month period in the winter. Scholarships were available, and many kids had scholarships for both equipment and lessons/transportation.
THe year we had the principal from heck( referred to earlier)- she canceled the snow program even though she was an interim principal, and earlier in the year she had made a committment to continue it.
Her reasoning was that it was racist.
( she remained silent when reminded of the aid available, as well the argument that if she felt it was racist because not many minority skiers were well known, wasn't this an opportunity to change that?)</p>
<p>Ironically, a close acquaintance of mine, who defended this principals actions elsewhere in the district,has two children(black) who ski competitively year round, indeed the major focus of this families resources seems viewed at giving their kids opportunity to compete
I didn't ask her what she thought about canceling the snow program ;)</p>
<p>duuude...only 96 black people in your college class? that's PATHETIC. UCLA ought to be ashamed.</p>
<p>EK:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Interestingly, my daughters previous public school had a ski program, that was part of the experiential learning focus.
[/quote]
Interesting story, though I am not sure what this has to do with anyone complaining about the lack of black Olympic skiers.</p>
<p>my point was that when there is actually a chance to reduce "disproportionality", and open experiences up to more kids, they often get shot down, unless they have been talked about for years, and are funded by minority approved groups. ( how many minority groups are trying to increase winter sports participation by kids?)
If it is a bunch of white PTA mothers who are running the program- then it likely will get shut down for being too "exclusive"</p>
<p>If your objective to teach asian and black kids how to swim, and there is a program that can do that- wouldn't it suit the kids needs better to utilize it so they can learn to swim- instead of waiting until El Centro de la raza decides it is a priority and will sponsor it?</p>
<p>rorosen:
[quote]
I'm beginning to understand how these apparently contradictory states of awareness can exist within the same people, if they are caught up in many small instances of unfairness that drain their attention while perhaps obscuring the more terrrible, invisible psychological damage which like many diseases, to wear out the metaphor, has a way of disguising and replicating itself within the organism.
[/quote]
Yeah. Its because blacks are no more philosophical than any other group, and in fact the pains of history threaten to make them quite a bit less philosophical than many whites and Asians. When you feel a general sense of threat coming from a host of hidden sources, and then one of those sources, however trivial it may be, distinguishes itself, you dont usually contemplate the nature of the varied sources of the threat. You focus on the most distinguished of the threats, leaving the hidden threats to do some serious damage.</p>
<p>In another post I made mention of how I think dialect hampers blacks. Here we are dealing with a simple thing as dialect, but my goodness it is DEVASTATING. I first got the notion years ago, when I read that some guy had long ago written Danl Boone killed a BAR on this tree. I thought about this and it became apparent to me this guys spelling was being influenced by his accent. I then read writings by other men from the same general region and in many of them, even in writings from men like George Washington, I saw the same sort of misspellings. A kid who is culturally brought up to say Bey-ar is likely to have an advantage over the guy who is raised to say Bar when it comes to remembering the correct spelling of the word bear.</p>
<p>Now with blacks, language is just torn all to bits. Language is in many cases a form of auditory art. But I think it is killing large numbers of blacks when they are required to perform in school. The way blacks speak is just drenched in a very racist past. Racism is still at work here, only now blacks have recoiled so far from white English that when a black adopts it persistently or is raised with it, he is held suspect until he has proven his loyalty. All of this means that large numbers of black kids are at a distinct disadvantage compared to other kids when it comes to language testing. I think Hispanics also suffer from this, but not because of the cultural component. They are just new to America, relatively speaking, and will overcome these difficulties in time. Blacks, on the other hand, due to history, have pressures working against them that, if they are not made aware of them, threaten never to allow them to progress as rapidly as they could.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think this has to do with the internalization of inferiority but I would like to understand this better.
[/quote]
Oh it is just a huge thing. Very difficult to explain here. I can just suggest to you to consider how much TV blacks watch, and remember the images you and I saw as children. Everyone in the commercials had nice stuff. Kids were happy. Their moms were lovely, and always concerned about them. The moms even worried about using things like Ovaltine rather than chocolate milk. They fretted over which detergent cleaned and smelled best. The kids had wonderful dads who called their wives honey.</p>
<p>They had the coolest toys, toys that were really big and shiny, and not the things that you have to push around either. They seemed to move all by themselves. These kids sat nonchalantly in big bright kitchens, wondering if their brothers were going to eat their breakfast cereals or turn their noses up at it. They rejoiced as their lovely mothers fed them Oscar Meyer, as opposed to boring brand B. Now this stuff had on me the same effect it had on you. It made you want that stuff, made you wanna be like those people.</p>
<p>But shoot, when you look around and see that you dont even have a dad, that your mom is worn out from worry, and that chocolate milk is something youve never really had, you watch all these beautiful pink people on the TV and realize you just dont fit in. When you go to school and see the pink kids and the kids who look like you, the difference is quite striking. All things flow from there. It is just a matter of physics from then onward.</p>
<p>And it causes blacks to do some really weird things. A few years ago I visited a church in Virginia where an Easter pageant was being given. This church thought it was being cool by presenting something a little different. The whole pageant had a kind of Broadway motif. All the music had a Broadway bounce to it, everyone dressed in Boradway stuff, the Apostles all dressed in black top hats and black tuxes with tails. Even Jesus was dressed in a tux with tails, except his tux was white and his top hat was covered in red glitter. As I watched this theatrical abortion unfolding before my eyes, I could scarcely keep from laughing aloud. What sobered me up was the fact that there were several black guys, men my own age, kneeling on stage before this white clad red crowned Caucasoid Jesus as if this was the way it should be. I wondered what were the chances of having all these fine white Christian folks kneeling down to a black Jesus, and what were the effects, however subtle, upon these black guys kids sitting out there in the audience watching their own dads bowing to the white guy in a top hat? We just traditionally have accepted all sorts of nonsense, and it has kept us thinking lower of ourselves than we should in the places of our minds that really count.</p>
<p>You need to know I dont think there is a problem with any of this if we discount the effects of history. Also, please understand I am not advocating the fashioning a black Jesus or a Jesus of any race for that matter. I am just talking about the likely effects upon kids of seeing their fathers acting so casually within the racism that I think is as common and real as the air we breathe.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That blacks can still feel a sense of belonging in a society that appears unjust and unwelcoming is a beautiful thing. John McWhorter put forth the idea(flooring me with one of those venerated perceptual shifts) that black americans are the newest race in the world.
[/quote]
Well, if McWhorter said this, I really need to read his books because I have come to something of this idea myself. In my house we are trying to raise a new race of people, creating a new ethnicity. It is already causing a lot of blacks some difficulty because they are having a hard time trying to understand what makes my kids tick. I am just hoping that rather than be turned off too much, they can expand their vision and see the world a little differently. This is the kind of change that needs to take place. Whites are also feeling a bit out of sorts with my kids. It is pretty funny to see how whites, hoping to do well, work hard to accommodate my kids by, for example, introducing them to their black friends. My kids are humored by it because clearly both whites and blacks need to be disabused of their assumptions when it comes to race.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You can see the black experience less as a mess and tragedy and more like a chance for redemption of the human race in a world defined by group killing group. Seeing America as the most advanced human experimental ground, this sort of renders the outcome of critical interest to all people. This wasnt an overt central thesis in his books, back at the library now, but he didnt find the unique project of race relations in america to have a parallel of equal depth in history, though mini would likely be helpful here.
[/quote]
Well, I do appreciate you reminding me of this guys work. I will pick up as much as I can get my hands on as soon as possible. This is the kind of guy we need laying the groundwork for us. I know he says stuff that angers blacks. But he also seems to offer some analysis of our circumstance that can help us develop some nice solutions to our problems. And to tell you the truth, I am impressed with guys like Ward Connerly. Connerly is this black guy who has probably done more to end AA than anyone else. I vigorously disagree with the guy, and would love to see him fail at his efforts. But cmon. The guy is going after what he thinks is best. I dont think for a minute he is sitting around scheming for ways to destroy blacks. I enjoy that he takes freedom to do his thing, damning the illegitimate slings and arrows of his opponents. I reject his opinions, but enjoy his contributions to this debate. We need this sort of thing within the black community to shake us up and make us think hard on everything, questioning every assumption.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The argument might rest on americans never being really sure who we are, thank god
[/quote]
Hmmm. Yeah. I have no choice but to fashion an identity based on the lack of nationality. It is a lot easier for my kids than it is for me. I still see the American flag and get warm feelings. My kids see it and get something a lot more cerebral from it. They see the world a lot more freely than I do. My son sees a map of the earth and literally plans where he might anchor down and create opportunities for himself and others. He sees the whole planet in the way I might see a map of Vermont. Certain areas, like some places in Eastern Europe, are for him what sleazy neighborhoods are for me. The idea of trying to fit in with a particular racial group or nationality is nothing to him at all, though he can easily fit in with any racial group or nation that would have him. I like his way of thinking. He loves America, but is no rabid nationalist.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier,</p>
<p>When I was a graduate resident at MIT (basically an RA, but MIT uses grad students), we had a training session for all of the graduate residents concerning racism and prejudice. One of the other graduate residents, who was also white, said that he could not walk through the Central Square neighborhood of Cambridge without feeling harassed as people were being obnoxious to him, because his wife was Chinese and people did not accept a biracial couple. I informed him that my wife is also Chinese and we lived in Central Square for three years and never once heard anyone have anything negative to say to us. Perhaps this other student was either looking for trouble or inviting it by acting obnoxious himself.</p>
<p>If, in fact, your children do not see the world the same way you do, then they are very fortunate. You seem to have convinced yourself that you do not feel personally harassed but that nonetheless you see racism pervasive throughout all of American culture. Could it be instead, perhaps, that you see it (even where it does NOT exist) because you are looking for it? For example, you complain that blacks feel inferior because of unrealistic TV families they have seen. Perhaps they should have been watching The Cosby Show? In this realistic show, the parents are employed as an obstetrician and a lawyer, have tons of spare time for their children, and the mother looks great for someone who had such a family (perhaps because the actress who played the mother is only 8 years older than the actress who played the oldest daughter). Earth to Drosselmeier: TV shows are not supposed to be realistic otherwise they would be considered boring. </p>
<p>In your example of the church drama production, do you have any reason to believe that any of these black men in the church tried out for the part of Jesus, and if so that they were better qualified than the person selected for the role? Obviously, is you ASSUME that everyone is racist, then it is very easy to prove it.</p>
<p>You need to get a life and stop looking for racism where it does not exist. Claiming that someone who is not black cannot possibly understand what blacks have to experience is a completely bogus argument. None of us (or at least very, very few) lived during the 19th Century, yet many excellent authors can capture the essence of life during that time period, not perfectly but certainly substantially. It is extraordinarily difficult to grow up poor, without a father, in a violent neighborhood, etc. This may be statistically more associated with blacks than other races, but there are many kids of all races and nationalities who have difficult childhoods who nonetheless grow up to be productive adults of excellent character.</p>
<p>Having an attitude of trying to force everything into your preconceived concept of racism is counterproductive. It is amazing that you have convinced yourself that you are an OBJECTIVE observer of society, when that is very far from the truth.</p>
<p>if it speaks like a smug patronizing jerk, is it one?</p>
<p>rorosen,</p>
<p>"if it speaks like a smug patronizing jerk, is it one?"</p>
<p>Only if the opinion is opposite to yours. Otherwise, it is extremely thoughtful and insightful.</p>
<p>pafather:</p>
<p>
[quote]
When I was a graduate resident at MIT (basically an RA, but MIT uses grad students), we had a training session for all of the graduate residents concerning racism and prejudice. One of the other graduate residents, who was also white, said that he could not walk through the Central Square neighborhood of Cambridge without feeling harassed as people were being obnoxious to him, because his wife was Chinese and people did not accept a biracial couple. I informed him that my wife is also Chinese and we lived in Central Square for three years and never once heard anyone have anything negative to say to us. Perhaps this other student was either looking for trouble or inviting it by acting obnoxious himself.
[/quote]
It could be. But its not like racism is so hard to find in America that we ought to automatically accept your assumption over his. It is quite possible that your friend was sensitive to actual racism that you casually accepted without challenge. This sort of thing happens every single day of American life.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If, in fact, your children do not see the world the same way you do, then they are very fortunate. You seem to have convinced yourself that you do not feel personally harassed but that nonetheless you see racism pervasive throughout all of American culture. Could it be instead, perhaps, that you see it (even where it does NOT exist) because you are looking for it?
[/quote]
Perhaps, though when whites form racist groups all over your own country, groups that long to create a war wherein you are murdered, and when you get death threats from whites just because you are a black guy playing the role of Jesus, it is kinda hard to suspect that racism just does not exist. It does exist. And the ugliness I describe here is not isolated. It is leaching into our culture by degrees, and harming many of our kids.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For example, you complain that blacks feel inferior because of unrealistic TV families they have seen.
[/quote]
Cmon guy. I didnt reduce the thing ONLY to this. I have already said it is a lot bigger than this. This is just a small, very small, example of the racial preference in American society that has negatively impacted large segments of the black community. As billions in advertisements have caused you to identify with certain features and groups, they have done the same thing to blacks. And when you combine this with the attitudes that have come out of history, you create yet another of thousands of influences that work against blacks. It is where conspicuous spending comes from. All groups do it. Blacks can afford to do it least of all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Perhaps they should have been watching The Cosby Show?
[/quote]
Impossible because The Cosby Show hasnt existed until only recent times. And even its type is fairly limited today, compared with so many negative portrayals of blacks on the tube. Yet millions of blacks, across several generations, have been influenced by the images everyone takes for granted. I grew up watching cartoons, for example. I have seen hundreds of them. Vast numbers of them were racist to the core. But my six year-old mind took them in and suffered. Whites, on the other hand, laughed and enjoyed themselves. This was the way of American entertainment. And it has negatively influenced vast numbers of people alive today.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Earth to Drosselmeier: TV shows are not supposed to be realistic otherwise they would be considered boring.
[/quote]
Six year olds dont usually think in this way, friend. In fact no one really does. That is because realism is not the issue. I wish I could get this across to you. The issue is idealism. Now chew on that a minute.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In your example of the church drama production, do you have any reason to believe that any of these black men in the church tried out for the part of Jesus, and if so that they were better qualified than the person selected for the role? Obviously, is you ASSUME that everyone is racist, then it is very easy to prove it.
[/quote]
I like to think of it as a matter of probability. You see, when you grow up and a blond-blue Jesus is all you see, you know, you open your bible and he is there, you look on your walls and there he is, with his long flowing blond hair, his blue eyes, porcelain white skin and Nordic features, you go to churches stuffed to the gills with blacks all bowing to the white guy, and there you are a black kid seeing this week after week for your whole life, you see that the angels surrounding him are all white, God the Father is white, and that shoot, even the Holy Spirit is a white dove, and that if you change this, whites</a> get out of hand about it, well, it ought not take much proof to convince anyone why the black guys in this church arent in the role of Jesus and why they so easily bow to the white guy and why it would not be the other way around.</p>
<p>This is just one aspect of life here that I am talking about. It is not such an intense thing that anyone need protest about. But it is one of tens of thousands of racist influences that I think signal to millions of blacks that they are indeed not up to snuff. I think when these sorts of influences are met with challenge or outright blocked in a black kids earliest development, it helps free that kid to achieve great things.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You need to get a life and stop looking for racism where it does not exist.
[/quote]
I am the first to admit that I may not be seeing things as they really are. That is why I have tried to raise my kids to question everything, even my own perspectives. I am actually pleased that they think differently because maybe they are seeing a clearer picture of the thing than I. The great thing is, I know that even if they come to see reality in the same way I see it, they are now better prepared than I ever was to deal with it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Claiming that someone who is not black cannot possibly understand what blacks have to experience is a completely bogus argument. None of us (or at least very, very few) lived during the 19th Century, yet many excellent authors can capture the essence of life during that time period, not perfectly but certainly substantially.
[/quote]
Haha. Reading about what its like to be black is like some man reading about what its like to give birth. You dont substantially experience this by reading even the best books. It is just pure folly to claim such a thing. But it is possible for men to get closer to the experience of giving birth, if they are willing to vigorously observe and question everything dealing with the experience. The last thing a man should do if he wants to draw near to the experience is to read a book about childbirth and then tell his wife her experience may not exist.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is extraordinarily difficult to grow up poor, without a father, in a violent neighborhood, etc. This may be statistically more associated with blacks than other races, but there are many kids of all races and nationalities who have difficult childhoods who nonetheless grow up to be productive adults of excellent character.
[/quote]
Again. It is a matter of probability. I am saying that the influences we are all taking for granted are likely to produce the results we are seeing instead of producing all these productive adults of excellent character you are talking about. Over six million Jews in Germany perished at the hands of the Nazis. We ought not demand that they get up out of their graves and be productive just because some Jews at the time managed to survive. In any group you are likely to get some who do better than others. The point concerns the likelihood of success depending upon the pressures exacted upon the general group.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Having an attitude of trying to force everything into your preconceived concept of racism is counterproductive.
[/quote]
It is the human condition, friend. Arent you doing the same thing here? Of course you are. The point is to question whether you see what really exists. I am questioning, but am seeing very little reason, especially from you here, to doubt what I see.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is amazing that you have convinced yourself that you are an OBJECTIVE observer of society, when that is very far from the truth.
[/quote]
I only see what I see, and comment on how I think it is. Now I would like a reason to change my view. If I cant get a reason, then I am just compelled by reason to maintain the view.</p>
<p>"Now I would like a reason to change my view. If I cant get a reason, then I am just compelled by reason to maintain the view."</p>
<p>Your daughter, Collin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, Bill Cosby, Denzel Washington, Arthur Ash, Robert L. Johnson, founder of Black Entertainment Television, sold his company to Viacom for $2.7 billion, making Johnson the first black billionaire"</p>
<p>"There is a prevalent belief today that the success of blacks and other minorities requires an antecedent elimination of racism. This is false. Though the end of all forms of bigotry is an undiluted good toward which all rational men should strive, it is not a necessary condition of an ethnic or racial minoritys success. What is necessary is the legal protection of individual rights, including the right to property, provided by the capitalist system."</p>
<p>you can find more reasons at</p>
<p>Drosselmeier,</p>
<p>By the way, I appreciate you responding appropriately to my post, despite rorosen's comment. I certainly did not intend to be patronizing or condescending. I was only giving my perspective (which is obvously not STATISTICALLY based , only anecdotally based on my own experiences). I would not have responded at all if I did not think, based on some of your previous posts, that you were possibly willing to listen to reason.</p>
<p>However, I do think you underestimate the ability of people to understand the struggles of others. While no one's situation is identical to anyone else's, unless you can overcome and/or ignore differences during a discussion you can never have a meaningful conversation about anything.</p>
<p>dross - be intellectually honest. AA is largely about lowering standards, and the problem is one of black achievement. My own experience at a Tier 1 law school bore this out - the bottom ten percent of the class was a heartfelt tragedy - people were admitted who needed remedial education and there was no way they could keep up. And the huge debt? And awful bar pass rate? The placement director remains a friend - don't think she isn't unhappy about it - it all rained down on her and continues to do so. Again, not a happy story. Lest you think I am exagerrating, it was the subject of a Washington Post article in the early 90's - a work study student foolishly spilled the statistics to the press. And it is only marginally better today. This is confirmed by my discussions with professors - who are very liberal, very supportive of AA, yet very disturbed at how it actually works and the problems they have in their classrooms. Unlike them, I don't work in a culture where I have to tow the apparatchik diversity line - and can discuss this with candor. </p>
<p>And yes, there is a horrible history of racism in this country but encouraging people to unduly play the race card and become victicrats is not the way to go. That only lasts so long with limited utility. I married into a Jewish family, with in-laws both victims of the holocaust and the only survivors - from Eastern Europe with centuries upon centuries of discrimination. They give the Holocaust its due, but do not obsess on it - they think it destructive that a race of people be defined by tragedy and instead (not surprisingly) put above all else focus on education. Ask virtually any rabbi and you will get the same answer. They clearly do not want to be defined by their oppression. They came here as orphans at age 10 or so with five bucks to their name - and send their kids to Ivy League schools. They never had time to obsess or focus on how bad they had it. In anticipation of the fact that you may find the Jewish example inapposite, I concede that the Jewish people have had one of the longest running cultures of literacy in existence and that no doubt has contributed to their stunning intellectual success - whereas most cultures in sub-Saharan Africa did not have the written language until the 20th century - and slaves in America clearly were denied literacy, as venal and evil a thing as can be. But that doesn't make the Jewish example irrelevant - there are thousands of people who immigrated here with nothing - absolutely nothing, and have built intellectual capital at an alarming rate through their own efforts. There's really little choice to move forward on this model - all others depend on waiting for entitlements from others - an inconsistent, and ultimately de-motivating source of achievement. </p>
<p>Yes, you can argue that blacks have had it worse, but still, the fact remains that a culture that focuses on education and personal responsibility. A tough pill to swallow - but really, the only way to move forward.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Your daughter
[/quote]
I am not yet sure precisely how my daughter comes down on AA, but I do know she is concerned about illiteracy, innumeracy and the lack of confidence they produce in black kids.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Collin Powell
[/quote]
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Calling himself a "strong proponent" of affirmative action, Secretary of State Colin Powell said Sunday that he believes race should play a role in university admissions.</p>
<p>"I wish it was possible for everything to be race-neutral in this country, but I'm afraid we're not yet at that point where things are race-neutral," Powell said on CNN's "Late Edition."</p>
<p>"I believe race should be a factor among many other factors in determining the makeup of a student body of a university."
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/19/powell.race/%5B/url%5D">http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/19/powell.race/</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Condaleeza Rice
[/quote]
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice -- one of the highest-ranking members of the Bush administration -- said Friday she believes race can sometimes be considered as "one factor among others" to achieve diversity within a school or university. </p>
<p>The White House released a rare statement from Rice the same day that a story in "The Washington Post" credited her with taking a key role in helping to shape the Bush administration's decision to challenge the affirmative action admissions policy at the University of Michigan. </p>
<p>In her statement, Rice, who is African-American, stressed she agreed with Bush's call for diversity and confirmed that the president had asked her views about the matter before filing the friend-of-the-court briefs. But her statement went further than the briefs filed by the Bush administration on one key point -- whether race could ever be considered a factor in considering admissions. </p>
<p>"I agree with the president's position, which emphasizes the need for diversity and recognizes the continued legacy of racial prejudice, and the need to fight it," Rice said. </p>
<p>"I believe that while race-neutral means are preferable, it is appropriate to use race as one factor among others in achieving a diverse student body," Rice said. </p>
<p>She said the view she offered was based on her experience in academia and as provost of a major university. Rice served as provost at Stanford University from 1993 to 1999. She previously served as a professor of political science there, and she has won two of the university's highest teaching honors.
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/17/rice.action/%5B/url%5D">http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/17/rice.action/</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Bill Cosby
[/quote]
I am not exactly sure where Cosby comes down on AA, but I think he opposes it for the same reasons I suspect the program.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Denzel Washington
[/quote]
I dont know where Washington falls on AA.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Arthur Ash
[/quote]
Shortly before dying from the effects of AIDS, the tennis great Arthur Ashe said, Race has always been my biggest burden. Listen to the context here. The man is about to die from AIDS. He is a very successful black man: one who is pretty acceptable in the eyes of the white people, one who lives in a very well-off suburb. He says at this time in his life, Race has always been my biggest burden.
<a href="http://www1.umn.edu/irp/publications/race.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www1.umn.edu/irp/publications/race.htm</a></p>
<p>I think Ashe came down on AA just about where I come down on it. He didnt like it, thought it probably hurt blacks, wanted it to end, but begrudgingly supported it because he thought it probably helped more than hurt.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Robert L. Johnson, founder of Black Entertainment Television, sold his company to Viacom for $2.7 billion, making Johnson the first black billionaire"
[/quote]
Robert L. Johnson, founder of the Washington-based Black Entertainment Television cable network, said a newly formed political action committee is seeking contributions of $5,000 from each of the 100 largest black-owned U.S. companies "to oppose the dismantling of affirmative action." The group includes many prominent black entrepreneurs whose businesses began with minority preference contracts. </p>
<p>"I think the decision sounds the death knell for affirmative action and minority set-asides," said Johnson, who credits such programs for opening doors to his education and career. "There is no sugarcoating you can put on it." <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/affirm/stories/aa061495.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/affirm/stories/aa061495.htm</a></p>
<p>Incidentally, I think Johnson is part of the problem. I have seen BET only once in my life, quite some time ago, and that for only about twenty minutes. Ill never watch it again because what I saw was just wretched. It presented a corrupted image of what I know black people to be. But it sells. Johnson made his billions from it. Plenty of whites made theirs with him, and now they are continuing the tragedy without him.</p>
<p>The primary point here is that of the seven people youve mentioned here as foils of my view, four of them are actually on record as substantiating my view, despite their successes. They are substantiating my view because they know what the real elephant in the room looks like. They know how heavy it is, even after they have made their millions and billions. It is STILL a burden.</p>
<p>Thanks for the article, however, because I think it makes a point that I accept and that I have unfortunately failed to underscore-- namely, that blacks need not end racism to excel. If their basic rights are protected, they merely need to understand how the racism all around them drags them into the pit of mediocrity and how they might structure their lives to effectively kill it. I believe if they can understand this more fully than we do currently, many of us would get serious about it and begin to develop some seriously radical approaches to protect our kids when it really matters - in the earliest stages of their development. We dont really need whites to change, but it would help if whites of goodwill could investigate this and see if there is something to it. And if so, maybe help us all deal with it. It is, after all, everyones problem. And it does comes out of our nations history.</p>
<p>All I am saying is that AA can serve as a temporary measure to keep the symptoms of the real problem a little at bay until we can figure out how to get to hack at the roots of the real problem. We havent even begun the real work because weve been too much focused on arguing about other stuff.</p>
<p>pafather:</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, I do think you underestimate the ability of people to understand the struggles of others. While no one's situation is identical to anyone else's, unless you can overcome and/or ignore differences during a discussion you can never have a meaningful conversation about anything.
[/quote]
Its interesting that youve said this because even as I was typing my initial response to you, the same question occurred to me. Yeah. If we are so divorced from one anothers experience that we have little or no real idea of what others go through, then what is the basis of society, of family?</p>
<p>I think the basis is probably our constant attempts, futile as they may be, to transcend the partition that exists between us. And the only way I know how to make this attempt is to take very seriously the reports of others on stuff that I personally cannot see.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier: I think MAM1959's post was eloquent in trying to discuss a dimension of this that you have not responded to yet (at least if I remember correctly) and that I brought up previously. Why do you dismiss the idea of finding more common ground with other groups by identifying more with their present and past struggles? Obviously you feel the burden your race has endured is greater than any other in history, and greater than any other's ever will be. Since there is nothing you can do about it (and no other group can ever understand it, as you have said), why not make the <em>decision</em> to put it aside and focus on commonalities with other groups? Instead, you are "choosing to be defined by your oppression," and you are refusing to let go. Do you truly think that holding fast to this way of thinking is the answer? What if you gave up a tiny bit on holding yourself apart? What do you feel you might lose in that case?</p>
<p>
[quote]
dross - be intellectually honest. AA is largely about lowering standards, and the problem is one of black achievement. My own experience at a Tier 1 law school bore this out - the bottom ten percent of the class was a heartfelt tragedy - people were admitted who needed remedial education and there was no way they could keep up
.
[/quote]
Two things: 1. I am not saying there never have been abuses with AA that have allowed students who ought not attend certain schools to attend them. Abuses take place in even the best of programs. They still give us no reason to kill the whole program. 2. There is a big difference between admissions standards and academic performance once a student has been admitted. Plenty of students, I mean PLENTY of them, white and black, have acquired stellar scores in high school, gained admission to top schools, and then did very poorly at those schools. The reasons for this are probably varied and have very little to do with lowering any sort of standard.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And yes, there is a horrible history of racism in this country but
[/quote]
I do believe this is the single greatest flaw with how we deal with race in America. We just dismiss the most atrocious thing in our entire history with the little word but.</p>
<p>
[quote]
encouraging people to unduly play the race card and become victicrats is not the way to go. That only lasts so long with limited utility. I married into a Jewish family, with in-laws both victims of the holocaust and the only survivors - from Eastern Europe with centuries upon centuries of discrimination. They give the Holocaust its due, but do not obsess on it - they think it destructive that a race of people be defined by tragedy and instead (not surprisingly) put above all else focus on education.
[/quote]
That is because through all of their considerable suffering, they still were able to maintain their essential identity, a thing that they could all share together and work to promote. You allow people to hold onto that, and they can stand up under anything ANYthing. That was the most critical thing America took from blacks and blacks still have not recovered because they have not yet figured out what identity they are gonna promote. They are having to start out with nothing, from scratch, and disagreements on the most basic things keeps them from moving along as rapidly as they could. It takes a lot of time to develop culture and essential identity. Jews do not have to do any of this stuff. They have a fine culture, a fine identity. Shoot, they even have a God who parted a sea for them. No people that has this is gonna get whipped just because some tyrant murders tons of them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ask virtually any rabbi and you will get the same answer. They clearly do not want to be defined by their oppression.
[/quote]
That is because they have a lot more than oppression that defines them. They are correct to think as they do. I admire them for it and want to emulate their example. But we really dont have a lot yet, other than oppression. Even our successes are almost always cast in terms of the adversity that defines us. I am trying to craft a new identity right here in my house, hopefully to encourage others to do similarly. But there is just no way I should demand this of a people that is surrounded by racism and that knows nothing else BUT racism.</p>
<p>
[quote]
They came here as orphans at age 10 or so with five bucks to their name - and send their kids to Ivy League schools. They never had time to obsess or focus on how bad they had it. In anticipation of the fact that you may find the Jewish example inapposite, I concede that the Jewish people have had one of the longest running cultures of literacy in existence and that no doubt has contributed to their stunning intellectual success - whereas most cultures in sub-Saharan Africa did not have the written language until the 20th century - and slaves in America clearly were denied literacy, as venal and evil a thing as can be. But
[/quote]
There are no buts, friend. That is it. Period.</p>
<p>
[quote]
that doesn't make the Jewish example irrelevant - there are thousands of people who immigrated here with nothing - absolutely nothing, and have built intellectual capital at an alarming rate through their own efforts.
[/quote]
From my viewpoint, these people came here with a LOT more than nothing. SLAVES came here with nothing, and were throttled even when they tried to get something so that many lost hope and just accepted their lot as slaves. The people you are talking about were entrepreneurs. They took risks and made investments in view of better lives. That is everything, friend.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There's really little choice to move forward on this model - all others depend on waiting for entitlements from others - an inconsistent, and ultimately de-motivating source of achievement.
[/quote]
I completely agree with this. I just dont think we are gonna get there by just cutting down things as they are, leaving millions of blacks to turn in the wind, while demanding that they heal themselves on this model. This model depends on hope, a precious commodity missing in a lot of communities. It does exist in some black kids who do not yet know they are hopeless. I say lets quick grab up these kids when they get out and try. AA can do that, while we search for a real plan to take care of the entire problem.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, you can argue that blacks have had it worse, but still, the fact remains that a culture that focuses on education and personal responsibility. A tough pill to swallow - but really, the only way to move forward.
[/quote]
I agree. There is nothing here to reject. We disagree on how best to get there.</p>
<p>Oi, every time I can't resist engaging in such discussions:P</p>
<p>I see that the Jewish culture has been used several times as an example of how an oppressed culture has 'made it'. But I think the key difference is that while the oppression was HORRENDOUS in magnitude, it comprises a small part of their history. Jewish history is very rich with stories promoting literacy and attainment of dreams etc that is very relevant for today's Jew. However, I believe the black has been so violently divorced of his own culture and left with only slavery that there's nothing for him to fall back on. The black man has no past culture upon which to rely, he has no home country, he does not even know his own heritage only that he's from 'Africa'. He probably has no extensive family tree that he can point to proudly as so many others can and he does not even know his real last name. His culture is today's culture and it's an ugly one, there are no 'good old days' to extoll upon in hard times because his best day is tomorrow no matter how terrible it is. I believe this is a very important reason why African immigrants consitute a large percentage of the achieving black because he is still attached to his culture before oppression and that upon which to rely. </p>
<p>I absolutely hate AA because every time I engage in conversations about it with my classmates because I nearly always find out they think that some black kid stole their spot at Harvard because of it while politely refraining from naming ME as that 'underqualified black person' or, even worse, using me as an example of excellence and ask why all black people can't 'get with it.' The answer is to fix education in inner city schools. However not only would this require America to figure out how to fix it in the first place it would also take a massive act of AA to carry it out which would probably step on more toes than any politician could bear.</p>
<p>And as I always say in these arguments, the largest benefactors of AA are WOMEN, but no one dares to go after that 'minority'. And if you swallow women getting AA with no question then you really have no place arguing against blacks because I don't think anyone will disagree that blacks had it any easier</p>
<p><em>tries to not look at this post ever again</em> blaah...</p>
<p>Women may have received an extra push at first but quickly hit the ground running and more than made up for the opportuinities by succeeding. This goes as well for black women, who succeed at the high school and college levels at a higher rate than black men.</p>
<p>In my opinion, having lived and worked in very diverse communities my entire life, the black community and its leaders need to jump in more and take control of the AA dilemma. Until the communities themselves step in and try to influence the black youth in a more positive way, then the youth will continue to drop out of school, get pregnant as teens, and otherwise perpetuate so many problems that are seen in the cities. </p>
<p>This goes for successful men and women besides rap stars and athletes, who could more often go into the communities and have a positive role. There is only so much that AA at the college level can do, when the problems often begin in grade school. And only so much that outside groups can do, regardless of well-meaning intentions.</p>
<p>Same for the schools, as so much starts at home. And blaming other groups only leads to a non-productive path. As in some of the posts in this thread, which is fairly representative of how people feel.</p>