A Startling Statistic at UCLA

Parents Forum
481

<p>Mam1959:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The real problem data-wise is that AA would be fine with most everyone if it were a thumb on the scale for applicants - in practice, however, it has been much more than that - and it does call into question the issues of incentives, fairness and AA's place in putative meritocracies. These questions ought to be balanced agains the need to redress past sins against blacks.

[/quote]
I have no problem with balancing these questions against these other issues. The problem I have is how these discussions typically fail to balance them at all. The other issues tend to take precedence, and the effects of the past are easily dismissed with the word “but”.</p>

482

<p>Dross:</p>

<p>I just don't see why racial bias is needed for admissions unless it's to make a preference one way or the other and the preferences really can't help one person without impacting another based on race. I think you and I have different opinions on whether racial preference allows one in at a lower standard or not but I believe it does. I think this is evidenced by the change in demographics at schools that went from racial bias to going away from it. The princeton study also indicates that points are awarded based on race. These points add to a person's chances of getting accepted which means it detracts from the non-desired racial groups who don't get these points. If it's deemed the boost is insignificant, then why do it at all?</p>

<p>Regarding Asians given a boost by lack of racial bias, I think they really have in California. Check out the numbers before and after elimination of racial bias and check out the stats of the higher-level UCs in California. Asians are the predominant race at these schools despite being a minority in the state population. There's a large disparity between ther numbers in the general population and the numbers in the schools. They're doing this because they are more academically qualified in general than some other groups. I'm fairly convinced that if racial bias was used, and if Asians in California were classified as non-URMs, their numbers accepted would be reduced and the numbers for races classified as URMs (including blacks/hispanics) would increase. If the number of Asians accepted were reduced, then the numbers accepted for non-hispanic whites would probably also increase since this group was also impacted by reduced admission since the elimination of racial bias. I have no problem with the fact that Asians are accepted in large numbers due to their merit however. </p>

<p>The demographics of Asians (and hispanics and blacks) on the west coast is significantly different than in other parts of the country so this must be kept in mind by anyone studying this area. </p>

<p>Since UCLA or any of California's public universities don't discriminate based on race, I agree with you that blacks at UCLA are every bit as qualified as the general population at UCLA. Any black accepted to the UCs/CalStates knows that they were admitted on their own merit and that they weren't given any preference just due to their race. Anyone else (including employers) needs to realize the same thing. In the end, this may prove to be beneficial to these groups. Maybe this fact alone could be used to attract more of the qualified blacks to these colleges rather going to some of the competition.</p>

<p>If the pool of 'qualified candidates' from a particular group for a highly selective school such a UCLA is small, then I think UCLA can certainly "lose out" to other high end schools, including Ivies, that are actively seeking to attract those highly qualified candidates with perhaps better deals and sometimes more prestige (Harvard/Princeton versus UCLA/UCSD for example). Again, the pool of qualified applicants needs to increase. </p>

<p>I know there are still major issues for blacks in general. By "not so bleak" I meant that it's not gloom and doom for all blacks. There are many blacks today that didn't grow up in poverty and blacks are included in the middle-upper socio-economic groups in increasing numbers and are no longer an anomoly. I agree that more progress needs to be made.</p>

<p>I agree with you regarding some of the people traditionally called "black leaders". Are they really helping to move the group forward or are they actually contributing to keeping them where they are (often to the 'leaders' advantage). True leadership will find ways to lead the group in a forward direction and away from dependency and being stuck where they are. Somehow, more leaders and the blacks in this group themselves need to think out of the box (I think many programs have resulted in putting them 'in a box'). Have the traditional 'leaders' helped or hurt? Have the traditional programs including welfare in the state it currently is, helped or hurt? Do quotas today really help or do they hurt? Has the political party traditionally associated with the group helped or hurt?</p>

483

<p>* Have the traditional 'leaders' helped or hurt?*</p>

<p>they need to demand accountabilty and responsibilty from their leaders- if their leaders can't step up- dump em</p>

<p>Just as in a small organization like my daughters former school- every position is critical
When the head of a large organization like the NAACP in Seattle- can't do what he signed in to do- don't keep accepting excuses- it isn't racist to find fault with someone who either has more on his plate than he can handle&/or doesn't car
*Carl Mack, the former head of Seattle's NAACP chapter, says the time has come for current chapter President Alfoster Garrett Jr. to resign from his post.</p>

<p>Mack says the local branch under Garrett has become invisible on civil rights and community matters and is floundering from internal strife that is turning away prospective members.</p>

<p>Mack is especially angry over complaints from within the NAACP branch that touch on Garrett's chronic lateness with court appointments and meetings with key public figures.</p>

<p>Such behavior reflects poorly on the civil rights institution, I wrote Thursday.</p>

<p>In recent months, Garrett failed either to show up or show up timely for meetings with Gov. Christine Gregoire and Seattle Public Schools chief Raj Manhas. They wanted to hear from the NAACP on key issues.</p>

<p>"You don't just blow off the governor, you don't show up late for court, you don't mismanage relationships in the branch," Mack told me yesterday. "I'm beyond angry. I'm disappointed."
Corporate America wouldn't tolerate this," Mack added. "Why should the black community?"*</p>

484

<p>mam1959,
[quote]
Even more disturbing to me is that I see the preference for males in admissions apparent now in some public schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Public schools tend to be the type that have large engineering programs. Did you take that into account?</p>

<p>
[quote]
It is without question that women were discriminated against in admission to William and Mary this year - boys with appreciably lower scores and grades were admitted.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These two things are important factors, and perhaps discrimination did exist, but schools also take into account factors such as the difficulty of the schedule, trends in grading, and other things. I'm not denying that some preference could be, but test scores and grades are such a limited picture for undergraduate admissions which often stresses many other factors largely due to the shift into "well-roundedness" in the early 1900s.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I believe the number is 7.7 million women in school to 5.5 million men)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If that's the case, why is more not beind done the help the men? If the males are dropping out of high school, why isn't society doing more to prevent that, to help them? Why is there so much focus on abilities of the highest achieving women in high school and the general abilities of women in high school if the general abilities of men in high school need the most help? Why focus on how the brightest women students need to do better at math and science when they're doing well if the average and weakest male students are doing very poorly in English and literature courses, often needing to go to remedial courses in college (for those that go to college) far more often than the women need remedial math courses?</p>

485

<p>Uc…dad:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I just don't see why racial bias is needed for admissions…

[/quote]
From my viewpoint (and I suspect from that of the movers and shakers behind AA), it is a desperate situation. Should blacks not gain a decent representation in this experiment we call America, it ends the experiment. That may sound like hyperbole, but try to put the thing together yourself, including everything-- your own views on race, and how you think Americans generally think regarding it. AA that includes racial considerations (but not ONLY such considerations) is needed to offset the racial bias that once denied blacks the ability to accumulate the cultural capital that allows people to pursue opportunity. Without it, even the few blacks who have the guts to take risks are likely to be overlooked, and we need them all – every single one of them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
…The princeton study also indicates that points are awarded based on race. These points add to a person's chances of getting accepted which means it detracts from the non-desired racial groups who don't get these points. If it's deemed the boost is insignificant, then why do it at all?

[/quote]
What the study shows is that effectively certain blacks gain a focused preference that is equivalent to a certain point value. The point value merely allows us to put in perspective how much of a focus is being put on these particular blacks. The reason you want to do it is because if you don’t, many of those particular blacks will be lost to non-blacks who are probably scoring at the same general level. The study is showing the strength of preference, and the preference is particularly strong for high scoring blacks so that few of them are lost to the system. Standards are not decreased.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Regarding Asians given a boost by lack of racial bias, I think they really have in California. Check out the numbers before and after elimination of racial bias and check out the stats of the higher-level UCs in California. Asians are the predominant race at these schools despite being a minority in the state population...

[/quote]
You could be right on this because I have not checked the numbers. I’ll need to see data on Asian enrollment at UCLA during AA and after AA’s end. If we see a significant increase of Asians, then what this says to me is that the UC system is using a rigid quantitative system to qualify students, rather than taking into consideration personality and other traits. I don’t think this is particularly desirable because I think it will tend to create an inferior community in general. But if that is what administrators wish to do, its fine by me. I am thankful there are other choices.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There's a large disparity between ther numbers in the general population and the numbers in the schools. They're doing this because they are more academically qualified in general than some other groups.

[/quote]
Well sure, as a group they will be well-represented with or without AA. I am still not convinced that ending AA made a radical change here. The AA mentioned in the study only focused its quantitative component upon the few blacks who measure up to the standard the students are setting generally. Not every Asian guy applying for an elite school is gonna hit 4.0/2400/800/800/800. When a black guy hits around this region, the preference for him goes up significantly to make sure he does not get lost in the sea of equally qualified students. Standards are not being decreased. Preference within the standard is being increased for blacks.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm fairly convinced that if racial bias was used, and if Asians in California were classified as non-URMs, their numbers accepted would be reduced and the numbers for races classified as URMs (including blacks/hispanics) would increase...

[/quote]
Well I think this too. But that is not the issue you were really dealing with. Sure, as a group this sort of demographic change would take place. But would it take place to any significant extent, considering the low numbers of high scoring blacks? That is something I don’t know. And does it mean a lowering of standards? I do not think it does – not based on my understanding of the Princeton study.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Since UCLA or any of California's public universities don't discriminate based on race, I agree with you that blacks at UCLA are every bit as qualified as the general population at UCLA. Any black accepted to the UCs/CalStates knows that they were admitted on their own merit and that they weren't given any preference just due to their race.

[/quote]
Based on what I have read, blacks at Harvard are every bit as qualified, and are perhaps even more qualified than those in the UCs, and for the reasons I have mentioned above. I would bet money that if you compared gpa and the SAT scores of HYP blacks to those of the UCs, the former would completely blow the latter clean away. And if you were to compare these blacks to their white and Asian counterparts, you likely will not find a single black at the bottom of the scale (removing athletes from the equation). That is because the schools seem to be selecting only the very highest scorers.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If the pool of 'qualified candidates' from a particular group for a highly selective school such a UCLA is small, then I think UCLA can certainly "lose out" to other high end schools, including Ivies, that are actively seeking to attract those highly qualified candidates with perhaps better deals and sometimes more prestige (Harvard/Princeton versus UCLA/UCSD for example). Again, the pool of qualified applicants needs to increase.

[/quote]
I agree with this, but we ought not assault blacks with the implication they can’t be proud of their accomplishments merely because their school employs AA. I think the dearth of highly qualified blacks at UCLA is probably due in large part because the relative few blacks fitting this description have been gobbled up by schools that deliberately seek them through AA. I also think circumstances are forcing other blacks of this sort into CCs and into jobs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
By "not so bleak" I meant that it's not gloom and doom for all blacks. There are many blacks today that didn't grow up in poverty and blacks are included in the middle-upper socio-economic groups in increasing numbers and are no longer an anomoly. I agree that more progress needs to be made.

[/quote]
Yeah. I have seen nothing on it, but I’d bet even these blacks are being impacted negatively by the forces in this country that I have described. It is a brutal thing, and it is hidden from us in plain view.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I agree with you regarding some of the people traditionally called "black leaders". Are they really helping to move the group forward or are they actually contributing to keeping them where they are (often to the 'leaders' advantage).

[/quote]
I certainly don’t think they are moving the group forward. Instead, they seem to be representatives of a lot of these people. They give voice to their anger. But they can’t lead them. I think their vision and character are much too small to do any kind of real leading.</p>

<p>
[quote]
True leadership will find ways to lead the group in a forward…

[/quote]
We missed a glorious opportunity. America really lost out big time. In the days right after slavery, agriculture was the big industry. It was the Internet of the day. Washington himself had the vision of putting scientists like George Washington Carver at the top of a black cultural pyramid. The scholars would teach in schools like his Tuskegee Institute, handing their findings to blacks who had saved enough to buy land. Those blacks would hire laborers to work their farms and other industries, and as Washington himself said, no one would be able to compete with black workers because they had already grown used to hard work. Working for themselves, they would be remarkable producers, saving money, buying land, and moving up the pyramid. Even those at the very bottom: domestic workers and others, would work upward, paying no heed to the idea of equality with whites.</p>

<p>It could have worked, and it had begun to work for a time. But as whites continued to hammer blacks with mean-spirited assaults, lynchings, Klan raids and the like, blacks lost heart and turned away from Washington and moved toward other leaders. These leaders agitated for social change by protests. And that new program caused some really outstanding gains. I am here today because of it. But still, it was basically all based on begging whites for stuff. It never really got us the dignity and self-respect that would have come out of developing our own institutions. Multiple generations of blacks have now grown up in this program. They just do not see the America you see. The America they know in their hearts, is basically hostile to blacks. And this whole push to end AA is just one of many proofs of this.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Have the traditional 'leaders' helped or hurt?…

[/quote]
I do not think it is as simple as this. There have been positives and negatives with all of it. I am not sure what the net effect has been. I think that is still to be seen. I do know this: that gains by protests will never get us to where we need to be in ourselves. But I am unwilling to say git was wrong when Dubois began it. I just think it is probably an idea that has served its purpose. We need a new way, but it cannot be enforced suddenly or people will just run back to what they are used to.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Has the political party traditionally associated with the group helped or hurt?

[/quote]
Well, I trust neither, and am a member of neither. Democrats take blacks for granted, and Republicans would like to marginalize them. I don’t think any of these parties really care about helping blacks. So this is a question that is, only to me, just not that relevant to this discussion.</p>

486

<p>
[quote]
You could be right on this because I have not checked the numbers. I’ll need to see data on Asian enrollment at UCLA during AA and after AA’s end. If we see a significant increase of Asians, then what this says to me is that the UC system is using a rigid quantitative system to qualify students, rather than taking into consideration personality and other traits. I don’t think this is particularly desirable because I think it will tend to create an inferior community in general. But if that is what administrators wish to do, its fine by me. I am thankful there are other choices.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>UCLA is one of now 9 campuses which hosts many undergraduates. Please remember different schools have different policies and don’t just think “If UCLA has x, the UCs have x.”</p>

<p>
[quote]
Based on what I have read, blacks at Harvard are every bit as qualified, and are perhaps even more qualified than those in the UCs, and for the reasons I have mentioned above. I would bet money that if you compared gpa and the SAT scores of HYP blacks to those of the UCs, the former would completely blow the latter clean away.
[quote]
</p>

<p>I would be the same (and don’t understand how it’s relevant). </p>

<p>
[quote]
And if you were to compare these blacks to their white and Asian counterparts, you likely will not find a single black at the bottom of the scale (removing athletes from the equation). That is because the schools seem to be selecting only the very highest scorers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why do you bet that? Do you have any reason to believe that? Are you saying that the average black applicant is being discriminated against at each of the admissions committees at each school directly and because of their being black? Regardless of the school, someone (excluding any group) still has to be at the bottom, and while I’m not saying “it’s probably African Americans,” I don’t see why that’s not a possibility. </p>

<p>On a related not, have you heard anything about studies that find how African American students end up in the graduating classes of various schools? I’m curious if you have any. From the couple I’ve heard about (from other people on cc, and some were about law school), significant numbers/percentages are in the bottom half of the class at the schools studied. Do you have any studies handy, I can’t find any online?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Democrats take blacks for granted, and Republicans would like to marginalize them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I know this was just a pithy explanation of your view, but I do hope it’s more nuanced (and in reality, that the groups are more nuanced if they are this) than this is.</p>

487

<p>Inside Higher Ed is doing a week-long series on Calif education....</p>

<p><a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/06/26/intro%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/06/26/intro&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

488

<p>
[quote]
Why do you bet that? Do you have any reason to believe that? Are you saying that the average black applicant is being discriminated against at each of the admissions committees at each school directly and because of their being black? Regardless of the school, someone (excluding any group) still has to be at the bottom, and while I’m not saying “it’s probably African Americans,” I don’t see why that’s not a possibility.

[/quote]
Indeed. Of course it’s a possibility. I only have a hunch that it is not probable. I once read a Harvard administrator state outright that in the entire history of blacks at Harvard, never has a black been at the very bottom. I suspect this is likely true across these schools. The selection pressure for black high scorers is so great and the numbers so few, relative to non-blacks within the acceptable range, I suspect plenty of non-black students are scoring beneath blacks at these schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
On a related not, have you heard anything about studies that find how African American students end up in the graduating classes of various schools? I’m curious if you have any. From the couple I’ve heard about (from other people on cc, and some were about law school), significant numbers/percentages are in the bottom half

[/quote]
Yeah. I have seen only a few, and they report the same thing. I think several reasons are behind this, but I don’t yet have proof that you would accept about these reasons. I’ll just say what I know.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Too many blacks (obviously not all) just don’t have the cultural backing to support top college performance. I myself know the effect of going into school, basically with a family that just doesn’t know how to root for you. It is a killer of focus and academic intensity. Blacks do have a responsibility to step up and deal with this because no one else can deal with it.</p></li>
<li><p>Blacks in this country, in the world really, are covered with a very thick atmosphere of racism and social stigma. It’s just the air we all breathe. It is not IN the air. It is the air itself. It has high expectations of whites, and the very lowest expectations of blacks. Millions of whites are living up to it, and millions of blacks are living down to it. The same thing affects women too, by varying degrees. Ours is a culture of sexism. And it is having significant effects on how women perform in some academic pursuits.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>There are ways to combat both problems, and they all require great effort from everyone. But people need first to know they exist. I know for a fact that they exist because I have fallen victim to both. And I know for a fact they can be stopped because, though it is a real struggle, we are doing it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I know this was just a pithy explanation of your view, but I do hope it’s more nuanced (and in reality, that the groups are more nuanced if they are this) than this is.

[/quote]
Okay. Yeah. You’re right. It was too blunt a statement, and maybe even a bit unfair. Yeah. My view is nuanced. I know the parties are really just coalitions of groups, many of which have conflicting interests.</p>

489

<p>"Carl Mack, the former head of Seattle's NAACP chapter, says the time has come for current chapter President Alfoster Garrett Jr. to resign from his post." - Emeraldkity4</p>

<p>What on earth does this have to do with the OP?
You seem to have a limitless reservoir of stories about apparently incompetent black officials. (See #447 above, and the notorious "Flo Flaglers")
I think it's a bad idea to generalize about an entire race based on a few really, really odd examples.</p>

490

<p>drab = you ask a bunch of abstract queries as to why society is not doing this or that. I am not from Berkeley (I am highly educated from the nation's best schools so I can't be accused of being insufficiently nuancy, though), so I can't address such questions about "society", an amorphous institution that is accountable to no one. What I can state is that boys do not work as hard or put in as many study hours generally as girls do - which of course, geez, just might explain the difference in college attendance and performance (except at the top schools, which continue to attract well educated boys who, shazzam, work just as hard if not harder than the girls and do just as well, if not a little better). So in case you are wondering whether the prescription is to recognize that boys have a perfomance issue and kick them a little harder in their rears, the answer is yes. This is not an easy thing to do given the increasing dearth of two parent homes. But the message is the same no less. This seems a much more commonsensical course than ruminating about society. But then again, not having a degree in social work, I may just be an outdated neanderthal. And oh, the problem won't get better by lowering standards for boys.</p>

491

<p>mam1959, location or school attended is really no grounds to answer or not to answer (or patronize). You can't answer my "society" but you accept Dross' "The System?" You probalby have mroe experience than I do yet here I am talking. All a person can do is investigate and speak based on what one knows. I'm just pointing out a general hypocrisy and probable misplacement of resources and energy probably due in part because of generally liberal interest in femminism and young girls who historically have received sexist treatment in many cases. Currently, I would wager far more money is being spent on women and young girls (especially on math and science encouragement) than young boys on literature or general working habits. It reminds me of something else I saw yesterday- prostrate cancer in men happens far far more than breast cancer in women, yet the money currently invested in breast cancer far exceeds the money invested in prostate cancer. Perhaps breast cancer is just a sexier issue, as women are to many (over men).</p>

492

<p>"I think it's a bad idea to generalize about an entire race based on a few really, really odd examples."</p>

<p>I agree. You are willing to accept assertions by one example that going to top school helped a black guy as he was surrounded by great minds. And the only way to 'repay' the blacks for the past sins, the white system should do more than what they are doing now. In an abstract sense emraldkitty was just responding that it is not as rosy as it is made up to be. AA has also created many incompetent people. The black leaders of the past may not be in-tune with the reality - they would like to preserve the entitlement, but are not willing to engage in a meaningful dialogue to improve the root causes of the problem - lack of motivation, lack of parental interest and involvement in their children's education etc.....</p>

<p>It is very easy attack a person based on a single post. Look at the context.</p>

<p>If every black, brown or white followed emraldkitty's or sybbie's life journey there will not be a education problem in this country.</p>

493

<p>I brought up the "odd" examples, not so much because I think AA results in a plethora of those types of cases, but because in those "odd cases", it was a very lengthy and difficult process to have those individuals removed from their positions, ( and in the flo flagler case- she actually received a big promotion) because of loud persistent accusations of racism.
We have seen it in the OJ SImpson case- where he actually proved that black men have acheived what white men have " If you have enough money- you can get away with anything,even murder". BUt those who argued against that would say that it was racist to even think he could committ murder.
I do not understand, when there is someone who obviously can't do their job, as with the principal or the head of the NAACP, that the black community can't see it. Why they claim racism for even expecting someone to be competent. Why are the ones that disagree silent?</p>

494

<p>
[quote]
If every black, brown or white followed emraldkitty's or sybbie's life journey there will not be a education problem in this country.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There is a saying "I used to complain that I had no shoes, until I met a man that had no feet". </p>

<p>Thank you for the complement however , I don't think that I am the "poster child" for anything because many others have accomplished the same thing and even more (they are just not posting on CC). </p>

<p>Because I know that my experience is not everybody else's and I don't know the frame of reference or the context of which someone else is operating in, I do not think I have the right to tell someone if I can pull my self up by the bootstrap you can too (I could very well find that this person no only does not have a pair of boots, but doesn't even have feet to put into them). </p>

<p>I can encourage someone to say don't let your past dictate your future because you can over come it and hope and pray that they believe in themselves that they can do so. I can extend my hand and avail my self to be of help because sometimes you to back up your words with deeds.</p>

<p>I also understand that while this concept on the surface may sound simple, but for some this is something easier said than done. I have met people who feel that they have no hope. The sad thing is, no matter how many antecdotes you give, it is still up to the person to initiate the change. If someone does not believe that the change can happen because they have not seen it first hand or if they don't have the faith to think change can take place, all of the antecdotes in the world are just things that happen to other people. </p>

<p>The biggest thing that life has taught me is not to marginalize someone else's experience, especially if that experience has not been mine. To merely sweep someone's experience under the rug and act like it has not happened is disingenous, and worse it is a culturally encapsulating mindset that does nothing but perpetuate a lot of trash thinking that will never move us forward as a society at large.</p>

<p>There is an old 60's slogan * that if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.* So we can sit here all day and hem and haw as we have for the past 33 pages and 493 postings or we can begin to be the change we want to see happen and be agents for positive change.</p>

495

<p>
[quote]
I have met people who feel that they have no hope. The sad thing is, no matter how many antecdotes you give, it is still up to the person to initiate the change. If someone does not believe that the change can happen because they have not seen it first hand or if they don't have the faith to think change can take place, all of the antecdotes in the world are just things that happen to other people.

[/quote]
Yeah, sybbie. I have met these people too. Simba is whining here so brashly because he just can’t relate to this and wants to angrily address me because I continue to present this point of view. Well I personally don’t allow the past the destroy my future. I personally have quite a lot of hope, and personally have a great deal of faith and confidence in being able to hack through whatever adversity the Fates have in store for me.</p>

<p>But this ain’ about me. I can see hope, and put the thing into historical perspective. I can work to make sense of it, take steps to minimize its effects on my loved ones. I was browsing the web this morning after reading your post, googling for anything on racism and its effects on academics, and here is what I found:</p>

<p>“Claude Steele of Stanford University (along with Joshua Aronson) has done research that indicates that other complementary factors contribute to poor academic performance by blacks. Steele's research on college students at Stanford and the University of Michigan indicates that when students are placed in a situation in which a poor performance on a standardized test would support a stereotype of inferior abilities because of the student's ethnicity or gender, then the student's performance suffers when compared with those who do not labor under this preconception. For example, when black students and white ones were given tests that they were told measured their academic abilities, black students did worse than whites. But when a control group of black students and white ones were given the same test but were told that the test did not have any such significance but was merely a laboratory tool, the difference in performance disappeared. He calls this phenomenon ‘stereotype threat.’”
<a href="http://hub.mspnet.org/index.cfm/9152%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://hub.mspnet.org/index.cfm/9152&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This is what I am trying to say here. I’m saying this is what is killing us, and by various means. It is coming out of history and trying to kill us. When I read about this study, I said to myself that Stanford could have just written me a check twenty years ago and had me tell them this, creating a win/win situation for everyone. This was just no surprise to me at all.</p>

<p>But there are millions of blacks who just have no idea of the pernicious forces that work against them every single day of their lives in the whole world. They are laboring under this thing and have no idea how to deal with it. Many are just tired of being under its thumb, and they have given up. Despite my own circumstances, I can relate to them. Happiness, freedom and all good things can literally be all around them, and they just will not perceive it as you and I will. Life will seem distant, joyless. People who are in this pit are unusually trapped, and unless some sort of intervention takes place, and even then there are no guarantees, they will remain trapped until they die.</p>

<p>I think someone reading this knows exactly what I am talking about because they are in this pit right now. And it can grab anyone of any race. Well I am saying that it has grabbed millions of people in America who are descendants of slaves. All this stuff about working and saving for the future, building a “nest egg”, getting involved with education, helping your neighbor, climbing the corporate ladder, improving yourself, all of this, means nothing at all – NOTHing. It is just a bunch of meaningless clanging in an empty pot. The only thing many of these people can see is that they are hurting, and that they need something to get them through one day to the next.</p>

<p>Whining that these people should just be like someone else is just complete nonsense. It is also coldhearted and only adds to the weight that is causing the problem in the first place. Sure, some of these people may wake up with some atypical intervention. The vast majority never will, regardless of what happens. I personally think they cannot be helped, but will keep trying because these folks are humans, and I value humans. What I think can be done is that we can help their kids. Some of these kids aren’t yet a crippled as their parents, and they have hope enough to at least try. When they do try, I’d like to see them get a leg up so that they finally get to see what their parents cannot – that the American Dream can be theirs too.</p>

496

<p>I have to thank Dean J @ UVA for posting this link in the cafe.</p>

<p>The Potential Impact of the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative on
Employment, Education and Contracting</p>

<p>The Impact of Prop. 209 on University Enrollments</p>

<p>According to Richard Atkinson, the former president of the University of
California system, “In 1995, before Proposition 209 took effect, underrepresented minority students accounted for 38 percent of California high school graduates and 21 percent of entering University of California freshmen, a difference of 17 percent. In 2004, they made up 45 percent of high school graduates but had fallen to 18 percent of incoming UC freshmen, a difference of 27 percent.”37 </p>

<p>The enrollment decreases at UC Berkeley and UCLA have been even steeper.
Atkinson continues, “In 1995, UC Berkeley and UCLA together enrolled a total of 469 African-American women and men in a combined freshman class of 7,100. In 2004, the number was 218, out of a combined freshman class of 7,350. African- American men, in particular, are virtually disappearing from our campuses.</p>

<p>UCLA and Berkeley together admitted 83 African-American men in 2004.”38 In 2006, UCLA, which is located in the county with the second largest African American population in the United States,39 will enroll the smallest number of entering African American freshmen “since at least 1973.</p>

<p>Since the passage of Prop. 209, an increasing number of high-achieving African American, Latino and Native American students who are accepted into the University of California system choose instead to attend elite private institutions, such as Stanford, Harvard and Yale. In 1997, 14.1% of underrepresented minority students denied admission to UC Berkeley and UCLA but accepted to another UC campus chose a private college or university. </p>

<p>By 2002, 59% of such students opted for colleges outside the UC system.49 Their departure contributes to low numbers of underrepresented students of color on UC campuses, which reinforces the impression among prospective students that the climate is inhospitable, thereby further dampening both applications and enrollments.</p>

<p>Furthermore, the absence of these students diminishes the opportunities for all students to benefit from a diverse academic environment.</p>

497

<p>"And the only way to 'repay' the blacks for the past sins, the white system should do more than what they are doing now."</p>

<p>I don't know why you keep saying "past sins"? Why do working Black men have to continue to subsidize my mother's Social Security? Today. 2006. Why do African-Americans, with exactly the same income and same health insurance companies, not get the same level of care, for heart disease, hypertension, diabetes (as reported in JAMA)? Today. 2006. Why do African-Americans in California have to attend schools where 4X-6X as many high school teachers are uncertificated to be teaching the subjects they are as in majority white schools. Today. 2006. The list could go on. </p>

<p>Why are Black (and other minority) children confined to schools (re: the Williams v. California lawsuits) with rat, mouse, and cockroach infestations? Schools with leaky roofs and broken and boarded-up windows, and peeling lead-based paints? Schools where the windows can’t be opened at all, and the temperatures often hit 120 degrees, or where heating systems don’t work and students wear coats, hats, and gloves throughout the entire school day to fight off the chill? Schools with defective and dangerous electrical systems/ Schools with toilets that don’t work, with floors wet and sticky and smelling of human waste, and with unsafe drinking water, or without any drinking water at all Schools without textbooks, or with three or four students per book, or where several classes share textbooks so that students can alternate doing homework? Schools where some classes have no formal, long-term teacher for the entire year, only a series of substitutes, some for as little as a single day? Schools so overcrowded that they’ve adopted multi-track schedules in which teachers and students take turns using two sets of classrooms, cutting the school year short by nearly four weeks of instruction? Schools where classrooms have 30 desks and 65 students, leaving students to perch on counters or simply stand in the back of the room, or rotate their seating? All conditions admitted to by the California State Board of Education. Today. 2006.</p>

<p>The list could go on and on. Now I recognize you value having benefitted from affirmative action yourself. Now how about just considering leveling the playing field?</p>

<p>Dross' point about African-Americans educationally performing to stereotype is valid. What needs to be added, however, is how white Americans TODAY work hard to reinforce the stereotype. It would be hard to justify continuing white people's Affirmative Action without it. Nowhere was this more true than in the California Board of Education's response to Williams v. California. The Governor and the State Superintendent of Schools did not contest the conditions, the evidence being so overwhelming, though they did try to ascribe blame elsewhere, by filing counter claims against local school districts (quickly dismissed). But the main elements of their defense were that students suffer no educational disadvantages as a result, for other schools were equally bad. That argument failing, they brought in expert after expert, 13 in all, some dubbed among the nation’s leading educational authorities (and surely paid accordingly - and all white), earnestly offering testimony that ameliorating these conditions wouldn’t have mattered: the kids would have failed anyway.</p>

498

<p>"Why do working Black men have to continue to subsidize my mother's Social Security? Today. 2006"</p>

<p>Because we all do.....we all pay for other elderly people.</p>

<p>"Now I recognize you value having benefitted from affirmative action yourself." ......... how did you get that idea?</p>

<p>"Now how about just considering leveling the playing field?" The field is level even tilted in URM favor if you are capable.</p>

499

<p>it’s a small satisfaction to have provided the armature for such a profound and thoughtful post. I went to my corner and gnawed on that little essay. I continue to believe you are a ‘thinker’ to replace empty leaders.</p>

<p>
[quote]
This happens all the time. It happens ALL the time. Blacks have been complaining about it forever. They are just profoundly bitter about it.

[/quote]

[quote]
A lot of these parents, though too far gone to accomplish much themselves, will probably make great sacrifices for their kids, if they could really see just how amazingly destructive our society is to blacks.

[/quote]

I'm beginning to understand how these apparently contradictory states of awareness can exist within the same people, if they are caught up in many small instances of unfairness that drain their attention while perhaps obscuring the more terrrible, invisible psychological damage which like many diseases, to wear out the metaphor, has a way of disguising and replicating itself within the organism. I think this has to do with the internalization of inferiority but I would like to understand this better.
That blacks can still feel a sense of belonging in a society that appears unjust and unwelcoming is a beautiful thing. John McWhorter put forth the idea(flooring me with one of those venerated perceptual shifts) that black americans are the newest race in the world. You can see the black experience less as a mess and tragedy and more like a chance for redemption of the human race in a world defined by group killing group. Seeing America as the most advanced human experimental ground, this sort of renders the outcome of critical interest to all people. This wasn’t an overt central thesis in his books, back at the library now, but he didn’t find the unique project of race relations in america to have a parallel of equal depth in history, though mini would likely be helpful here. The argument might rest on americans never being really sure who we are, thank god, and which you evoke in this Song of Solomonish lyric:
[quote]
I also know some of their descendants to this very day. They are my relatives. I also speak their language – my language. I love their music – my music, their art, my art, their foods, my foods, their way of dress, my way, their thoughts, my thoughts. I am more European than anything else. But I am made an alien everywhere. I don’t have Africa, but neither do I have America. I am comfortable with this. In fact, I think it is my alien status that allows me to stand apart from the jingoism that causes so many Americans to think far too highly of themselves than they should.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And finally back to the true economy(and I sometimes, well often, think this whole racial group tribal nonsense is just a substitute for the unfortunately described battle of the sexes, the meaning and challenge of which requires a different type of hero,..and without fanfare, I think you have discovered a profound and once again dangerous (=good)idea:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I sometimes wish I could remain myself and yet be my wife all at the same time. In fact, my constant attempts to realize this dream by varied ways is in large part what marriage is to me.

[/quote]
</p>

500

<p>sybbie - the benefits of diversity for diversity's sake are at best suspect, particularly when the academy suffers from a dulling similarity of political viewpoints (a generalization, but a largely accurate one). And in fact, one can make the argument that AA polarizes more than it diversifies. There are arguments both ways, but diversity for diversity's sake is a suspect value - no one seemed to value it when I was a minority at the All American level in the college event I participated in - I sure as heck didn't - it didn't matter - and there was no means or leverage to invoke white guilt in that situation either. </p>

<p>But really, what this is all about is that some institutions are highly competitive and selective. And they will continue to be. And if they no longer engage in AA, the numbers are not there to support any reasonable number of URM's matriculating. The problem is the shortage of highly qualified (note I say highly qualified, and not just qualified) applicants. And even if state schools go back to the good old days of AA, the problem of the slim applicant pool won't evaporate. But that is the elephant in the room, isn't it? And that is the problem, isn't it? It is not whether 200 extra URM's go to UCLA (although that bothers folks attending and working at UCLA). Lets go after and fix the real problem - as long as black kids (and to an almost similar degree, Hispanic kids) are graduating from high school at achievement levels 4 grades below those of white and asian kids, we have a big time problem to solve - one that won't be fixed by lowering admission standards to a handful of elite schools. Lets talk about tough stuff - including out-of wedlock births that generally condemn kids to a life of poverty and little opportunity. And we operate in a global, incredibly competitive economy. Talk of lowering standards to help one group out just won't make any sense in the long run. </p>

<p>I find AA proponents amusing (although I do see their viewpoints). The legal and political and even demographic (we have such a diverse population now) landscapes just won't support AA as we know it much longer. And those who desperately argue for it are akin to Sovietologists just before the fall of the Berlin Wall. Could I be wrong? Maybe. But I sure as heck would bet on the fall of AA. And if that is the case, should not the focus be on how to fix the problem - the real problem? Someone is going have to adjust to the new reality. And the train will head out of the station.</p>