A Startling Statistic at UCLA

Parents Forum
101

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<p>Naw--it's called a "handicap" and golfers have 'em.</p>

102

<p>"Corporate socialism?</p>

<p>You really think CEO's spend their time plotting the fates of various races or socio-economic groups?"</p>

<p>I think they do even more than that. I think they unite in the class interests (cooperation rather than competition being the rule of the idea) by using government to subvert so-called "free markets", off-load costs of training onto the workers themselves, blackmail foreign governments into lowering worker and environmental protections, blackmail state and local governments into bankrolling their development at home; making preferential use of undocumented labor because they know such workers can't protest wage and working conditions (wanna know where your chicken dinner comes from); redline and greenline neighborhoods; agitate for the placement of highways and infrastructure near new corporate headquarters in the suburbs (rather than refurbishing those in inner cities); the list could be very, very, very long.</p>

<p>I think they spend most of their time contemplating the bottom line.</p>

<p>"There was almost zero involvement on the part of the significant black population, and not because the mothers were working; they weren't. They were at home living meagerly on government handouts,"</p>

<p>You DO know how that happened, don't you. You DO know how large African-American populations got to Detroit, Long Beach, East Los Angeles, Tacoma, Washington, Jacksonville, Florida, don't you? You do know who built the battleships and the aircraft carriers in World War II, don't you? You do know what happened to the people who built those battleships and aircraft carriers after the War, don't you? You do know who got the GI bill, and who didn't, what colleges and universities would accept students of all races on the GI bill, don't you? You do know who was accorded permission to make use of their GI benefits to purchase homes in the new tract suburbs, don't you?</p>

<p>All I'm suggesting is get rid of the "handicaps". Since white folks received "handicaps" for the past 100 years, just level the playing field, and reverse 'em. Not forever. If you are white person, aren't you insulted by the fact that you have been playing with a handicap for 100 years, and winning by 50 strokes?</p>

103

<p>Handicaps for golfing is just for fun -- they aren't used for professional golf.</p>

104

<p>Simba:</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you are arguing for diversity, then in my opinion diversity is a state of mind/attitude - not the numbers.

[/quote]
Not sure exactly what you mean by this, but if it is what I think it is I can tell you that numbers matter a great deal in how well certain states of mind are represented. One black guy who thinks a certain way and who must spend most of his time with a hundred whites who think in ways that are harshly opposite his, may feel just a wee bit uncomfortable representing his end of things. And if he does ever get to where he willingly represents his views, he may do it in frustration because he knows no one else around him understands what he is saying. In fact, he may think there is just no chance of anyone understanding because, as these discussions often demonstrate, there really isn’t.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Many confuse numbers with diversity. If you are arguing for the past inequalities, then there is nothing that can be done about the past - move on.

[/quote]
All you need to do is put some black skin on and walk around America for a week to see just how completely detached this statement is. You know, if someone were to come to me and tell me they are dying a slow and painful death because some guys shot him in the gut, then even if I can’t see the wound and even if I don’t feel hurt myself, the last thing I would do is shrug and tell the person to just “move on” with a life that was taken away from him. I am going to instead really try to find the wound, to see where it is, what caused it. And if I see there truly is nothing to be done, well, I will at least try to comfort the guy as he dies. But to sit in the great fortress of my health and tell him to “move on” just would never occur to me.</p>

<p>The fact is, plenty can be done about the past. We just keep telling these fables that nothing can be done because, it is my belief, that we just don’t want to do what we need to do. Throwing money at the thing from a distance makes us think we’ve really done our part. And now that that hasn’t worked, we think we are justified in being frustrated and washing our hands of the mess. I don’t mean to preach here. And I am sorry about it, but c’mon. We have millions of people here who are crushed by the past and they live in a country that basically tells them to take a few welfare bucks, go to the overburdened school, take a swim at the shiny new community center and get yourselves fixed. It can never work because it can never heal the serious wound that is causing these people so much rage and hopelessness.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you are arguing about lack of role models, it should be the responsibility of the other URMs who have 'made it'.

[/quote]
This makes no sense at all from my vantagepoint. Yeah, parents have the responsibility to be role models for their kids. But not all parents are experiencing America in the same way. And not all Americans are made of the same stuff so that they respond to pressures in the same way. Not blaming anyone. I am saying that is just the way it is. Someone does an injustice to you and you may be able to brush it off because you know in the big scheme of things you will be fine. The exact same injustice done to me, however, may mean something very different. I may interpret it as a lack of respect, a total disregard of my status as a human being. It may open up all kinds of insecurities and wounds that, to stand up under them, makes me feel I need to be tough and maybe hit or even shoot someone. It is just a completely different world that people are living in. So it just won’t work to speak so casually only from our own perspective.</p>

<p>
[quote]
They should go in droves to inner cities and spend their energy in providing support to their communities. Let me give you an example. After Katrina, all you saw on TV were poor African Americans in dire need. There were several thousand Vietnamese affected by Katrina as well. You never saw any Vietnamese on TV or standing in line. Why? The local community absorbed them.

[/quote]
Well there are plenty black people slaving away in their communities to make them better. But c’mon guy, this Vietnamese comparison is completely unfair. Those folks aren’t here because they were forced here and then abandoned by the government to racism and discrimination. They are here willingly, because they have hope, so much that many of them have come illegally. They were never saddled with the mess blacks were saddled with since 1619. And also there are tons more blacks than Vietnamese in America. Given the history, it is a marvel that any blacks exist who are willing to work in their communities.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you are arguing about social engineering, just look around you. URMs have many channels they can take advantage of. For example, my employer does not hire any freshman for interns - except URMs. I have a Hispanic colleague and according to him his daughter usually get couple+ internship offers since she was freshman, and she goes to a third tier school. Sometime, the URMs also have to show initiatives to take advantage of the many opportunities given to them. There will never be enough resources to accommodate every one just because they are of color or they are poor.

[/quote]
Well, this social engineering is NOTHING compared to the centuries long social engineering that got us into this mess in the first place. You can load a deaf and blind guy whose nose has been cut off with literally a ton of food. Yet, he will still lack the essential resources to find it and eat.</p>

105

<p>
[quote]
So just level the playing field for the next three generations - hence making it absolutely level - with nothing but individual merit taken into consideration at the end of six generations.

[/quote]
That’s exactly right, mini. What you are saying is the government, instead of breaking up families with “well-intentioned” programs and all other sorts of silly bandages on a gaping wound, needs to basically cut these folks a break. The point is not so much to give them pennies, but to get off their backs, give them the same breaks whites have had for ages so that they can see over many generations that all they need to do to get ahead is what anyone can do. Plenty of white guys who got the benefits of the GI bill saw their own potential even though they were not filthy rich. Well, whites have had “GI bills” in one form or another since whites permanently settled here in 1607.</p>

<p>Fascinatingly, the whites of 1607, though enslaving blacks in 1619, eventually allowed those blacks to have freedom after a time of forced servitude. And guess what? Many of those blacks went on to become very prosperous pillars of the general community. But when around 1640 whites made it illegal for blacks to own property and have stuff, well, that started a serious history of destruction of the black spirit. And the thing just got worse with each passing year. THAT is why so few blacks are at UCLA and why so many are in prisons.</p>

106

<p>A little over a hundred years ago, MIT used to have a simple system of college admittance. Basically they had a test, and however got over a certain number of them correct was admitted. The problem? Basically too many Jews doing well. They then started using the concept of "well-roundedness" to admit and reject applicants, because any person could always be too "unrounded" for them. I'm not sure who started this in America, its history, but what I'm saying is that it isn't that old as far as I know. Does any one know the history? The country is fairly young, how old could it be?</p>

<p>So mini, "leveling the playing field" is basically reverse discrimination?</p>

107

<p>"....that started a serious history of destruction of the black spirit. And the thing just got worse with each passing year. THAT is why so few blacks are at UCLA and why so many are in prisons."</p>

<p>If you belive and live with that then there is no hope. It is always other people's fault. I am fat because McDonald tempts me to buy supersized french fries for pennies more. I got burned not because I was stupid and kept the hot coffee cup on my lap while driving, but because McDonald's dared to serve me hot coffee.</p>

<p>The only way people can better themselves is to take responsibility for their actions and do it themselves. As much as I can see there are tools available to do just that.</p>

108

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<p>Well, okay, but shouldn't there some sort of Statute of Limitations on that sort of thing? I can see someone legitimately claiming victimhood for something that happened to them, and perhaps for something that happened to their parents, and just maybe their grandparents too. But I have a hard time directly linking the plight of someone today to bad things that happened more than 10 generations ago.</p>

109

<p>How bout them Jews?</p>

110

<p>"Corporate socialism? You really think CEO's spend their time plotting the fates of various races and socio-economic groups?"</p>

<p>Check out the Business Roundtable: <a href="http://www.businessroundtable.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.businessroundtable.org&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It's their involvement in education that alarms me. I know they are very much involved with our governor in directing our state's k-12 education.</p>

111

<p>
[quote]
If you belive and live with that then there is no hope. It is always other people's fault. I am fat because McDonald tempts me to buy supersized french fries for pennies more. I got burned not because I was stupid and kept the hot coffee cup on my lap while driving, but because McDonald's dared to serve me hot coffee.

[/quote]
C’mon. Its just not the same thing. Imagine if McDonald’s, conspiring with the government, passed laws forcing you to eat french fries. You really didn’t want to eat them, but there ya are. Centuries go by, and all you’ve eaten, all your progeny have eaten, were French fries. You aren’t healthy as a result, and neither are your kids. What’s more, you’ve develop cultural problems as a result of the historic mistreatment. The problem wasn’t really eating French fries. The problem was that you were forced, brutally, to eat them over hundreds of years. </p>

<p>Then, McDonald’s and the government decide to stop forcing you. They are now telling you that you are free to eat healthy things like broccoli, asparagus, brussel sprouts and spinach, and carrots. If only you try hard enough to grow them. So, you finally try. But you have little idea how to go about growing them. Still, you keep at it. Just as your first seedlings begin to sprout, McDonald’s and government guys dressed in white sheets ride by in horses, trampling all your hard work underfoot. They pass laws so that you can’t even get seeds without paying money you don’t have. They scorn you, pass laws so that you can’t really learn much, basically they keep taking what little you have and giving it to their kids.</p>

<p>That is what has been happening to blacks in America from 1619 right up to fairly recent years. What America did was take the very minds and bodies of black folks and claimed them for itself.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The only way people can better themselves is to take responsibility for their actions and do it themselves. As much as I can see there are tools available to do just that.

[/quote]
I agree with this. The problem is, I don’t think you do, else you would not so easily dismiss the history that has devastated a virtual nation of people. There is a lot of responsibility taking to be had all around – by blacks, and quite a lot by America. And it is quite unfair to claim fulfillment of those responsibilities merely because America has thrown around a few pennies and crafted a few programs (some of which are probably destructive) for a measly 40 years.</p>

<p>What needs to occur is that blacks need a definite sense that the System is set up such that a guy can make it if he applies himself. I suspect most blacks feel the System is rigged, and its not like they don’t have a long history supporting their view.</p>

112

<p>Drosselmeier, I found your analogy interesting but flawed. If we had freed the slaves 10 or 20 years ago, you might have a point. HOWEVER, every slave has been freed for 141 years! Blacks have had at least 6 generations to eliminate any "ingrained" mentality and to rise above their prior problems. Not only has 141 years gone by, but there have been dozens of educational and financial initiatives to help them. </p>

<p>Someone asked about Jews. They have had thousands of years of percecution and discrimination. In fact, discrimination was still going on in a big way until about 1970. Read the book entitled, "Gentlemen's
Agreement."; I don't see any Jews asking for preferences or saying that they can't overcome their prior problems.</p>

<p>Sorry, I don't buy the argument that someone should get some form of preference because maybe they had a grandfather or great great grandfather that was unfairly treated.</p>

<p>I do, however, believe in helping out those who are economically disadvantaged regardless of race. If someone does reasonably well by overcoming the odds of poverty and lack of quality of schools, they should be helped.</p>

113

<p>
[quote]
Well, okay, but shouldn't there some sort of Statute of Limitations on that sort of thing?

[/quote]
Of course not. The inequities we see today exist to a great extent because some parent who lives today saw that America is not really her home. She saw this because of myriad experiences, including whites who huff the she ought to go BACK to Africa, as if she really knows anything at all about Africa. She saw this because of scores of other experiences, including many she gained while in grade school. She never thought to set her sights high because she was busy just trying to keep her head above water. The father of her kids just could not see beyond his own pleasures because from his view, there is no tomorrow worth planning for. One must eat, drink and be merry…</p>

<p>These views came directly out of the experiences of vast numbers of people living today, black Americans who were told by their own country, and all their lives, and by myriad ways, that they were just not as good as anyone else. They were raised with this from infancy. They felt it as they watched their little white counterparts frolic off to school clean and well fed, apparently with not a care in the world. And they resented it bitterly because, seeing themselves, they feared it was all true.</p>

<p>And these views came directly out of the experiences of vast numbers of blacks whose lives never belonged to them. These poor people were literally owned like tractors and horses, by other people. If the guy wanted to have sex with you, well, its just tough, because you are not really even human. You don’t rate enough in the collective mind of your own country to be able to protect yourself and those you love.</p>

<p>The experience of blacks in America hasn’t been all gloom and doom. Blacks have come a long way since slavery. But the brutality of slavery against the mind of black people was such that we are suffering even today. It is a sad thing to know that your own country once thought it the Constitutional right of people who look one way to completely own people who look another.</p>

<p>We may try to claim blacks today have no grievance because they were never enslaved, but the truth is those of us who live today are deeply influenced by what happened to our ancestors. I don’t have a hard time making this link because I sense it strongly. I don’t expect you to sense it. But I do and am just trying to spell it out in the very unlikely case you are able to sense it. I think Simba is probably right. There is no earthly solution but time and death. Personally, I am trying to move on, leaving it to cosmic morality (which I do believe exists) to right all the wrongs that I sense exist and that beg to be addressed. But I still think the country can’t become better until it deals honestly with itself on race.</p>

114

<p>so what do you think the system should do?</p>

<p>be specific...not the general statement like improve inner city K-12 education. What are some of the specific steps that should be taken by the system, the white people, black parents and black community as a whole.</p>

115

<p>
[quote]
Drosselmeier, I found your analogy interesting but flawed. If we had freed the slaves 10 or 20 years ago, you might have a point. HOWEVER, every slave has been freed for 141 years!

[/quote]
My goodness, and every black descendant of slaves was also treated wonderfully, given the same rights as everyone else, just as if slavery never happened. C’mon. Blacks since slavery have been heavily saddled with the weight left behind by the Peculiar Institution. Whites could not bring themselves to see as equals people they literally owned like so many boxes and canned goods. And the history of blacks since slavery has been just chocked full of the fallout of this sentiment. We are still suffering from it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Blacks have had at least 6 generations to eliminate any "ingrained" mentality and to rise above their prior problems. Not only has 141 years gone by, but there have been dozens of educational and financial initiatives to help them.

[/quote]
I am saying it is just not gonna work to throw a relative few bucks in the general direction of blacks, yelling “Heal Thyself” as you run away. Of course I don’t expect people to do anything but this, but I also don’t believe it has any possibility of ever working.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Someone asked about Jews. They have had thousands of years of percecution and discrimination. In fact, discrimination was still going on in a big way until about 1970. Read the book entitled, "Gentlemen's
Agreement."; I don't see any Jews asking for preferences or saying that they can't overcome their prior problems.

[/quote]
I respect Jews, have a deep and abiding respect for them and think blacks ought to really study and learn from this people. But Jews never, in the entire history of their persecution, were generally enslaved in the comprehensively destructive way blacks were enslaved. Jews always could identify with their ancient language and homeland. They could always, even in the worst of their persecution, sense themselves as a people, with an identity that is all their own. That alone is enough to get a people through anything. The Jews are likely big on Tradition because they know its value from experience.</p>

<p>Blacks didn’t even think of themselves as a single people until after they got here. They didn’t share a common language, never had a common history, even the boats here were full of blacks of differing, sometimes warring ethnicities. Only after the crucible of American slavery did blacks find out that, no matter what they thought of themselves, whites all saw them as slaves. And the whites forced a language, an accent, a culture on the new black people, denying them education by law, and even ridiculed the blacks as they spoke and participated in the slave culture they forced on them. The culture, from its root, was based on an identity of disintegration and oppression. That just never happened to the Jews. Regardless of their many groups, Jews always knew themselves as a historical people.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sorry, I don't buy the argument that someone should get some form of preference because maybe they had a grandfather or great great grandfather that was unfairly treated.

[/quote]
Its fine. I understand. Not really concerned with getting you to buy this because I think it is pretty much impossible. And why should you buy it anyway? You’re fine and that is as it ought to be.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I do, however, believe in helping out those who are economically disadvantaged regardless of race. If someone does reasonably well by overcoming the odds of poverty and lack of quality of schools, they should be helped.

[/quote]
Okay.</p>

116

<p>"HOWEVER, every slave has been freed for 141 years! Blacks have had at least 6 generations to eliminate any "ingrained" mentality and to rise above their prior problems."</p>

<p>Oh come on now - you're ignoring Jim Crow laws. Blacks weren't truly free in much of the US until the 1960s.</p>

117

<p>I don't think the businessmen would give a rat's patootie about influencing education (other than through financial support) if the government meddled less in corporate affairs. It's the government's intervention that created quotas and tokens, etc. One of the better things about business minds (I'm not saying there aren't negative trade-offs...) is that they tend to function best when they are objective, and thus, they are probably the best allies in the case of a talented minority interviewing for a position. If one person clearly has the better qualifications for a job, I think most businessmen (and I'm not talking about Homer who runs the corner gas station in Licketysplit MS) don't care if the candidate is pink, purple or brown. They just want the guy or woman who can get the job done, because that means better results for all the shareholders, including themselves.</p>

<p>But, of course, that's just my opinion.</p>

<p>Taxguy, I'm itching to agree with you, but I don't think the Civil War ended the plight of the blacks in our country. I grew up with racist parents and while I probably LOOK like I was born in the mid-1800's, I wasn't. There have genuinely been barriers for blacks and other URM's in our country, whether people want to accept that or not. The most unfortunate byproduct of those barriers is (that television program where the black and white couples donned space-age make-up to trade places being an example) is a kind of ingrained "paranoia" where racism/discrimination is perceived even when it's not really there. </p>

<p>Mini, if we're going to eliminate "handicaps", then surely you are in favor of eliminating every sort of AA, right?</p>

118

<p>
[quote]
But Jews never, in the entire history of their persecution, were generally enslaved in the comprehensively destructive way blacks were enslaved . . . ["Black"] culture, from its root, was based on an identity of disintegration and oppression. That just never happened to the Jews. Regardless of their many groups, Jews always knew themselves as a historical people.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't know about that. Have you looked at all the many differenent cases of Jewish oppression in their history?</p>

119

<p>I know a couple who could have played a part in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?"</p>

<p>The friend was a woman from a working class white background. In college she met an upper-class African student. They fell in love and married. Her parents disowned her and refused to attend the wedding. They refused to see her baby when it was born. The father supposedly was so stressed by his daugher's "miscegenation" that he had a stroke but refused to allow his daughter to visit. The husband is now working for the World Bank. </p>

<p>Slavery is over. Jim Crow laws are over. But family experiences and memories live on.</p>

<p>Dizzymom:</p>

<p>I disagree that businesses hire by "qualifications" alone. Qualifications include appearance. Chic retail stores want sales staff that reflect the images they want to project: middle aged men and women need not apply. Many studies when hiring many personnel managers do discriminate against Af-Am. The same resume submitted by an Af-Am will be treated differently than if submitted by a white person (the same thing also happens to renters). In certain jobs, gender is also a factor. For example, since orchestras have initiated blind auditions, the number of women in their ranks has increased significantly.</p>

120

<p>Dross, you make the destruction of the black spirit vivid and believable. A mind is a terrible thing to change or turn in another direction, and the the rust from mine rains down into these white eyes. No one ever likes to admit they've done wrong. Police, juries and divinities are there to twist confessions from us because there's always a way to shift the perspective. I myself thinly identify with whites and so it is difficult to take on blame as a white. It's oddly insulting to ever be grouped and people object to that herding as an offense to the lived perspective as an individual. It requires an act of abstract thinking to see my connection to the founders of this country or the current power holders of today. I am obviously an extreme example of alienated poet type but I wonder whether to a lesser degree most whites object to their part in the story because of a similar discomfort with being seen as belonging to a bunch of disembodied actors both in history and upon the present world stage. It's always rough to bridge the gap between minds, even with friends and loved ones, and so to be hurled into a group identity, no matter how one has visibly benefitted from that superficial association, seems an oddly, itchy costume forced upon a familiar, already embarassed, necessarily private, doomed-to-oblivion skin.</p>

<p>That phenomenonolgy aside, I think you are a genius of communication,..reading your words I actually gain the rare and holy experience of believing in another's reality, which as we know is a great threat to the inner baby indeed.</p>