A Startling Statistic at UCLA

Parents Forum
121

<p>
[quote]
The most unfortunate byproduct of those barriers is (that television program where the black and white couples donned space-age make-up to trade places being an example) is a kind of ingrained "paranoia" where racism/discrimination is perceived even when it's not really there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Then this woman must be really paranoid.</p>

<p>In the article:</p>

<p>Hidden Bias
Study shows women of color held back by discrimination </p>

<p>May 24, 2006 -- With an M.B.A. from Columbia University and a reputation as a top performer, Penny Knoll had ambitions of reaching the pinnacle of corporate success. But talent notwithstanding, Knoll found that other characteristics blocked her ascension to the top. She sports cornrows; laughs loudly; and, according to her boss, has an appearance and persona that undermines her leadership potential.</p>

<p>Knoll, a focus-group participant in a recent survey, is one of many black female professionals who says her career has been derailed by hidden bias -- discrimination tied to characteristics such as hairstyles, tenor of speech, gestures, accents, and wardrobe.</p>

<p>A study conducted by the Center for Work-Life Policy states</p>

<p>*minority professionals in large corporations believe "style compliance" issues halt their career progress. Thirty-two percent worry that their employers may interpret their "quiet speaking style" as a sign of poor leadership skills. And 23% fear that co-workers perceive their "animated hand gestures" as less than appropriate, while 34% believe promotions are determined by appearance instead of performance.</p>

<p>**"The fact is that companies have been relatively successful in getting women and minorities in the door, but they are not as successful as they would like in getting them up the ladder," says Carolyn Buck Luce, co-author of the study and chair of the center's Hidden Brain Drain task force. "Women and minorities are not advancing relative to their skills and abilities, in part because of hidden bias. That is why, after 30 years of corporate effort and legislation, they are still underrepresented at senior levels,"</p>

<p>According to Catalyst, a nonprofit research organization, women hold 50.3% of all management and professional positions, but make up less than 2% of CEOs at Fortune 500 and Fortune 1,000 publicly traded companies. For black women, the figures are dismal: they constitute a mere 1.1% of corporate officers and top earners. White males, on the other hand, make up 98% of CEOs and 95% of the top earners of the 500 largest publicly traded companies.**
*</p>

<p><a href="http://www.blackenterprise.com/exclusivesekopen.asp?id=1662%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.blackenterprise.com/exclusivesekopen.asp?id=1662&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

122

<p>
[quote]
so what do you think the system should do? be specific...not the general statement like improve inner city K-12 education.

[/quote]
Well, I wouldn’t suggest this anyway because I think the problem affects not just blacks in the inner city. It affects almost ALL blacks-- even rich ones.</p>

<p>C’mon. Can’t you see how weird this request is? We are talking problems that have a root that stretches over centuries of historical real estate and that have infected the attitudes of everyone, and yet you think they can be solved in six easy steps? What we need first and foremost are a few deep philosophical changes in our patterns of thought as a culture. And I think the thinkers in our culture need to lead these changes. I personally have a very structured approach to how I think things would be were I king. But, you know, my way won’t exactly be your way. The minute I release my specific ideas, you’ll just do what you’ve already done-- dismiss them as “unfair”, and you’ll do this because you can’t even begin to identify with the problems that I see very clearly. That is really what happens here in these discussions. And it is why nothing valuable ever comes of them. I think some philosophical groundwork needs to be done first—to give us rules of engagement that will help us maintain unity as we struggle to solve our problems.</p>

<p>The first specific thing I would suggest the System do, is figure out what the System is. The System is you. I think the very first thing that should be done is for people comprising the system to understand that if they are American, they are the System. I fear with the rapid influx of immigrants, combined with certain destructive attitudes here about culture, this notion is being lost.</p>

123

<p>Wow. Thanks rorosen for those kind words. I don’t really mean to lay a guilt trip on whites. What I am trying to do is let them see that there are real and genuine problems of thought in all of us, and that they are due to our rigid adherence to our own feelings. It is as if I know the world is round, and you know it is flat, we are both right depending upon our separate frames of reference. What I wish to do is get you to my frame and me to get to yours.</p>

<p>I want you to be able to say “Ah hah! I see! In one sense, the world really is round!” And I’d like to be able to say “In truth, I’ve always known the world is flat. I mean, just look around.”</p>

124

<p>DRab:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't know about that. Have you looked at all the many differenent cases of Jewish oppression in their history?

[/quote]
I can’t say I have looked at them all because the history is so large I may have missed something. But I have studied this people from about 500BC to today, and from what I have seen, in all cases of their history they were allowed (either deliberately or by happenstance) the ability to commune as Jews. Obviously war breaks up homes and people. This is still not an issue. There is something that kills the spirit when laws are implemented that aim not to destroy a people, but to dehumanize them, denying them use of a common language, keeping them around like cattle, and forbidding them to marry and have families of their own. Even in Nazi Europe, Jews, as a general people, were able to identify with their ancient homeland and religion. In fact, the laws at the time actually forced this. In pre-Bolshevik Russia, the same held true. And stretching back to the Assyrian conquest, we find it is also true, despite that the Assyrians deported many Jews from their homes.</p>

<p>In very few cases, perhaps only one, were blacks in the western hemisphere allowed religious and cultural identity of anything approaching that of the Jews. The case I have in mind took place in Haiti, where the French, apparently forgetting the lesson the Romans learned long ago, took large numbers of blacks from a single culture. These blacks, unlike in other cases of slavery here, could generally speak the same language, and shared a common identity. I think this is why the most successful revolt among blacks here probably took place in Haiti. Still, the Haitians are completely removed from their ancient roots. Generally French speaking and thinking, and yet widely rejected by the people whose language they speak, they, like many blacks in America, are largely fish out of water.</p>

125

<p>Marite -- I tried to qualify my answer so that the reader would understand I was talking about higher levels of business. At lower levels, people are rejected for all kinds of piddly reasons, and color is by no means the least of them. As someone who is partially disabled, I have scores of experiences from which to draw where that snap judgment is made about your brain because of the way you present yourself.</p>

<p>And, speaking of my brain, I guess I need to go checked for paranoia. </p>

<p>I've gone one round with you in the past, Sybbie, and since I would like to experience CC without being sworn at, I will let your post lie. I truly believe that a forum like CC can only be successful if we all try to discuss, or if necessary, debate the topics while remembering that not everyone will share our point of view. When I see that someone disagrees with me, I'm trying to adopt a strategy of being curious about it and seeing it as a way I can learn from others through the experience of discussion. </p>

<p>When any thread degrades to personal (ad hominem is the preferred expression, I guess) attacks, its credibility (and that of those who participated in the attacks) is tainted. </p>

<p>We are all products of our experiences, and in that regard, none of us is completely objective. I'm sorry for the experiences that have made you so angry, and I'm also sorry that my points of view cause you distress. Calling people names or swearing at them has seldom, though, in my limited experience, caused them to change their minds. Maybe you've had good luck with that one, and, if so, hey, knock yourself out -- but not with me, okay? Maybe it's my impaired brain function, but it doesn't make me want to rush over to your side and carry your flag.</p>

<p>I'd like to propose that "agree to disagree"chestnut, and see if it works for us. I respect your opinions and I'm sure I can learn from them.</p>

<p>Now, I'm off to the yellow pages to find that shrink...</p>

126

<p>"I fear with the rapid influx of immigrants, combined with certain destructive attitudes here about culture, this notion is being lost."</p>

<p>so now blame lies on immigrants. They are perceived as stealing the places of blacks.</p>

<p>No Dross....do you know what the real problem is. You and others tend to live the history. You are prisoners of your own thoughts. Yes what you say happened really happened. It was horrible. It might be as horrible as the extermination of 6 million jews. Some march on, and some just like to moan and groan about past injustices. </p>

<p>With your mindset, nothing can be done. I have been in this country for the past 36 years - that is almost a generation and a half. What I see are the societies best efforts to pull the people of color out of the cycle of poverty. What I see are the special accomodations in education, aid and employment. What I see is the lack of parental involvement in their kids education. What I see is the sense that we are 'owed'. What I see is because this thing happened to us - we can never be as good as others.</p>

<p>Remember Past is past, today is a present from God, and tomorrow is not born yet. You can shape tomorrow to your liking if you put the best efforts today. If you spend your today munching the past - there is and never will be any hope for a better tomorrow. </p>

<p>It is your choice.</p>

<p>Don't blame on immigrants - think of the contributions chineese, indians, mexicans and immigrant blacks and whites have done to improve your life.</p>

127

<p>Oh, and regarding the "women and minorities held back" article, I don't doubt that women are subtly discriminated against because employers who interview a qualified man and qualified woman may -- unfairly but looking out for the best interests of business -- choose the qualified man because many women of child-bearing age will put their interests ahead of the business' business. I'm reading -- and suspect those who hire are aware --that more and more women are leaving their careers to raise children, having learned they can't have it all at the level we were programmed to believe.</p>

<p>I am not saying that outright discrimination doesn't ever occur, but I do believe the incidence of it is lower than many would like to believe. Businesses that make that grave error will eventually sink to the place they deserve, as the most qualified people of all colors move on to more enlightened places of employment.</p>

<p>I wonder if any of you saw the magazine cover with Greg Gonsalves from Goldman-Sachs on it. He represents to me, a person who transcends color -- and a very successful man at that. I think that might be the recipe for breaking through whatever glass ceilings exist and that's what the black man in white make-up failed to perceive. We generally find what we're looking for, and if what we're looking for is discrimination, we can always dredge it up somewhere and keep ourselves from moving ahead.</p>

128

<p>simba - I believe Dross is homeschooling a number of children, the eldest of whom is going to Princeton next year and all of whom seem deservedly headed towards high achievement by any reasonable standard. Seems to me that's a pretty productive way of dealing with past injustice.</p>

129

<p>
[quote]
I fear with the rapid influx of immigrants, combined with certain destructive attitudes here about culture, this notion is being lost.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Rapid influx of immigrants are the problem, eh? Sounds just like 19th century Americans afraid of the Irish, Dutch, and Germans.</p>

<p>Achtung! We're heading for a meltdown, 19th century style!</p>

130

<p>ICargirl - thanks, but I knew that. We are not discussing individuals, we are discussing groups. I firmly believe that if any parent (black, brown, yellow, white or green) can take even 10% of the effort it requires to home school, many of the problems in education will disappear.</p>

131

<p>""I fear with the rapid influx of immigrants, combined with certain destructive attitudes here about culture, this notion is being lost."</p>

<p>I did not mention it before, but I find it very offensive and bordering racist mind.</p>

132

<p>simba,</p>

<p>Again, like I said, it's shades of the "know-nothings" and fear of an impending breakdown of American identity due to the wretched Irish and their equally wretched successors to the immigrant throne.</p>

133

<p>I don't think white people in American have a clue what it's like to be a minority. I have a sister in law who is half Japanese. She looks vaguely Polynesian. She has stories that would make your hair curl. People hurling insult for no reason. I also heard a very interesting interview earlier this week, I think on the Terri Gross show. They were interviewing a black actress from England. She said as long as she spoke with a British accent she was treated as an acceptable foreigner - but if she used an American accent she turned into a - she used the N-word.</p>

134

<p>To any WASP who thinks that it's "easy" to integrate, come live in Japan. Learn Japanese, get used to giving up your culture, and do everything it takes to integrate.</p>

<p>Then tell me it's easy.</p>

<p>It's not.</p>

135

<p>
[quote]
so now blame lies on immigrants. They are perceived as stealing the places of blacks.

[/quote]
Oh c’mon man. Can’t you just listen for a minute here and try to see what the point really is? Immigrants are just trying to go where the money is. I really can’t blame them. I blame the gatekeepers of American culture. Basically, I blame us. I am saying that we have a lot of people flowing rapidly into the country and who are having the affect of making what it means to be American more amorphous than ever before. One of the results will be a nation of people increasingly so divorced from the circumstances we are dealing with here, that they likely will deal with history in the way you are suggesting here – which is to simply blame blacks almost exclusively for their problems. This really doesn’t deal with the thing. In fact, all it does it makes America a nation of separate, ever conflicting foreigners fighting each other for the same piece of pie, and being kept from each other’s throats by an ever growing military complex, including the police and an expanding prison system. That isn’t exactly what the Founders had in mind when they formed a “nation” not based on blood, but on ideals. We need to maintain mutual ideals, and they need to be based more on just coming here to make a buck. Jefferson started the thing, and it had a great effect for awhile. But I fear it is being lost.</p>

<p>It is a struggle for me to come to my conclusions because I think many of them are in conflict with conventional wisdom. But, I’ll just let the arrow fly and see where it strikes. I think the System as I have defined it, is accidentally pushing its own people further away from itself by falsely ascribing value to beliefs and practices that may not survive on their own. In a way, Americans are becoming more foreign to themselves, becoming too chronically segmented as a nation. I guess I am talking about multiculturalism. I am coming to think it is not exactly a good thing as it is practiced today. Perhaps the reason Spartacus was able to hold on for so long against the Romans, though having very few resources relative to them, was not because of multiculturalism. It was cultural unity. So the first philosophical change I think needs to take place is that The System should entertain the idea of abandoning multiculturalism. I think a rapid influx of immigrants, many of whom are so completely heedless of the law that they are willing to break it to gain entrance to our nation, doesn’t exactly bode well for any chance of unity down the road.</p>

<p>
[quote]
No Dross....do you know what the real problem is. You and others tend to live the history. You are prisoners of your own thoughts. Yes what you say happened really happened. It was horrible. It might be as horrible as the extermination of 6 million jews. Some march on, and some just like to moan and groan about past injustices.

[/quote]
There is a kind of nobility in being abused and then killed for your religious identity that is completely missing from being held on a leash like a dog and watching your loved ones being treated in the same way, worldwide, by western law, and for centuries. That is what I am talking about here. In the first case, your descendants can take pride in the fact that you are human and that you are together and able to press onward. In the second case the descendants are left to doubt all of these things-- all of them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
With your mindset, nothing can be done. I have been in this country for the past 36 years - that is almost a generation and a half. What I see are the societies best efforts to pull the people of color out of the cycle of poverty. What I see are the special accomodations in education, aid and employment.

[/quote]
“Society” is you, friend. And it is filled with people just like you, people who pay their taxes and wonder in frustration why afterward why there are still problems. I am telling you the problems are a lot deeper than mere money. People’s lives and sense of roots, their very identities, have been completely and utterly destroyed, and then rebuilt in new surroundings all based on being inferior. You don’t just soldier on from something like that. But I am just wasting my time here.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What I see is the lack of parental involvement in their kids education. What I see is the sense that we are 'owed'. What I see is because this thing happened to us - we can never be as good as others.

[/quote]
Well, you see the same thing I see. I just don’t think you are able to feel connected to how we got here. In fact, you, like many in “society” probably don’t think “we” got here at all. It is “their” problem and so you think “they” need to take care of it. Well, I realize that is how it is, and so I am trying to do what I can to fix it. But it just does not go very far toward making me think I belong in this place with you.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Remember Past is past, today is a present from God, and tomorrow is not born yet. You can shape tomorrow to your liking if you put the best efforts today. If you spend your today munching the past - there is and never will be any hope for a better tomorrow.

[/quote]
Is that how it works? Surprising that its so simple. So, if your great-great-grandma is raped by a blue guy, and your great-grandma is also raped by a blue guy, and your grandma is raped by a blue guy, and your mom is raped by a blue guy, and then if a bunch of blue guys say “Hey, lets not rape Simba”, you are gonna just feel all ready to go out and live all hand-in-hand with blue guys and think the world is your apple?</p>

<p>Really. I don’t think you are working with me here. What we are needing is a sense of unity and trust. All these empty platitudes don’t do anything to solve the problem I’m talking about.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Don't blame on immigrants - think of the contributions chineese, indians, mexicans and immigrant blacks and whites have done to improve your life.

[/quote]
You make it sound is if these people came here looking for me so that, out of the goodness of their hearts, they could give me something. I don’t deny that all of these people have achieved great things. I fear over the long haul they are fated to discard the ideals that makes us a nation. And without blood to hold us together, the only thing I see left are large armies.</p>

136

<p>
[quote]
You make it sound is if these people came here looking for me so that, out of the goodness of their hearts, they could give me something. I don’t deny that all of these people have achieved great things. I fear over the long haul they are fated to discard the ideals that makes us a nation. And without blood to hold us together, the only thing I see left are large armies.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So what of the Irish, Germans, and Italians?</p>

137

<p>
[quote]
unfairly but looking out for the best interests of business -- choose the qualified man because many women of child-bearing age will put their interests ahead of the business' business. I'm reading -- and suspect those who hire are aware --that more and more women are leaving their careers to raise children, having learned they can't have it all at the level we were programmed to believe.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How very little progress we have made! When I was in grad school, I was told by a fellow student that it was unfair of me to go on for a Ph.D. because </p>

138

<p>
[quote]
So what of the Irish, Germans, and Italians?

[/quote]

Well you see UCLAri, those people were all white so we need not fear them.</p>

<p>It's those darkies and slanty-eyed folks we worry about.</p>

<p>[/sarcasm]</p>

139

<p>
[quote]
So what of the Irish, Germans, and Italians?

[/quote]
What of them? They didn’t overrun the system anywhere near as rapidly as is happening now? The issue is not immigration. It is uncontrolled immigration. The first great wave of these people came in the 1600’s so that by the time they began to come in larger numbers during the 19th century, there were already great numbers of them already assimilated into the “American” culture. Gradually, they shaped the culture, adding to it. My concern is not with change, but with the speed of change. I fear with such rapid and uncontrolled change, we may so much lose our mutual sense of history and culture, we won’t be interested in really getting to the bottom of the problem here. In fact, I think this has already happened.</p>

140

<p>Drosselmeier,</p>

<p>That's not what the Know-Nothings said. You realize that in terms of percentages, the waves of immigration during the 19th and early 20th-centuries were far larger, right?</p>

<p>But they were white people, who are much more likely to "add" to the system. Not those Asians, who just sit around in opium dens, speaking their "exotic" languages, right?</p>

<p>Sheesh. My girlfriend speaks less Mandarin than I do, and she's Chinese American! Yet you'd probably assume she's not "adding to the identity" or some such rubbish.</p>