<p>My D has a tough choice to make. She has been accepted to both Smith and Wellesley among others but has pretty much narrowed it down to those two. Are they really that different? She has been offered a STRIDE at Smith but the financial aid offer at Wellesley is really good. Smith will cost her/us approximately 5k to 6k a year, Wellesley under 2k a year. We just finished a marathon of open campus visits over the last 2 weeks and attended Wellesley's fete last thur/fri and Smith's the week before. She had a great overnight at Smith and a not so great one at Wellesley. Which means she really likes Smith. I keep saying that she has worked so hard to be ranked #1 in her school and to maintain a 4.0 GPA that she should just go where she wants to go as a reward. But, in the back of my mind, I can't help but weigh the financial factor and she is well aware of our financial situation. After reading a lot of discussion here about financial aid and loans etc., I know 20k debt at the end of her 4 yrs is not considered to be much money especially for a top notch education. However, I am a carpenter/builder in a normally very depressed area in a now very depressed economy, a situation that looks likely to continue for at least the next 4 yrs. (now I'm depressed too). So, I guess the question is: Smith w/STRIDE or Wellesley for less money? What would you do? I'm also going to post this to the Wellesley forum so I may have a range of opinions.</p>
<p>Of course, this is the Smith board, so my position would be “Go to Smith!” 
But only you can evaluate your own financial situation, so I will try to restrain myself a little. </p>
<p>Are they really that different? Yes, and no. There are definite differences, though I think in terms of the areas that really matter (academics, future prospects, etc) they are similar. </p>
<p>STRIDE is a very good opportunity, and you have to keep in mind that it garuantees her on campus employment at a very good rate of pay. Plus, even if her hours are reduced, she’ll still get the same amount of stipend money. There were many times when I was scrambling for a campus job that I wished I had that kind of garuantee. </p>
<p>Also, Smith is known to be very generous and willing to work with families who have unexpected changes to their financial circumstances (I don’t have any personal experience with this, but I know others on the board who do) including illness and loss of job. I would assume Wellesley would be the same, but I don’t know any first hand stories, whereas I know people here who can testify to that. </p>
<p>One of the interesting things about Smith, I think, is that many people can attest to feeling an immediate gut reaction that it was the right place for them. It’s a story you hear again and again among current students and alums. It sounds like maybe your D felt a little bit of that connection during her visit. Again, I don’t know the details of your family’s financial situation (nor do I wish to), but if you can really afford it, and she seems to think its what she wants, then I probably would go for it. You have to think that 5 or 6k a year, you’re already getting a very very good deal with Smith. Wellesley is less, that’s true, but it also lacks the research opportunity and the certainty of campus employment that’s both well paying and hopefully substantively relevant to her.</p>
<p>IMHO, this Dad says, first relax (if you can). Your D worked very hard (as no doubt you did in supporting her) to get to the point where two of the finest institutions (regardless of women’s vs. Coed) have accepted her. Moreover, your family has been given well deserved support for her to go to either of these transformational places. While your burden over the next 4-5 days is tough, there are many with far more difficult choices, or no choices.</p>
<p>That being said, my D did not apply to Wellesley, no doubt due to someone in her social network indicating fit would not be right (where do they get this data?) However, she DID get a STRIDE and had to decide that vs. MOHO who gave more merit money. Again, I sort of smile at the ‘difficulty’ we had with that decision, only because once made, both you and D get to concentrate on the future, and the road not taken seems to vanish, so there is hope!</p>
<p>As to advice, to me at this point “fit” is the most important. $20K debt four years from now will not be your issue as much as when the Housing crisis will mend itself…no crystal ball here.</p>
<p>But second, if I can add to the view that STRIDE is indeed impressive. Not sure if you saw the “posters” from current STRIDE scholars, but truly amazing. Also, my sister in law reviewed the program and suggested it is gold. Being able to open grad school/job doors by having done REAL research in First and Second year is a huge benefit, and probably leads to two more years of impressive marketable skills.</p>
<p>So, I can not speak to Wellesley beyond its great reputation, but I can say that we look upon Smith as a wonderful foundation to build a very strong adult life, and STRIDE as the architect that will shape that life even further. </p>
<p>Good luck in your next few days. PM if it helps.</p>
<p>Have you asked Smith to review your aid offer, and told them of Wellesley’s? Sometimes, more “need” can be found, if they want to. </p>
<p>Having said that the difference between 6k and 2k would be a $16k. In loans, that is doable. (I happen to think it is a good idea for the student to have some “skin in the game”, but that’s another issue.) I can tell you that, as a result of serious illnesses - both my wife’s and mine - Smith reviewed our financial assistance TWICE- mid-semester! - and upped it each time. And my d? She parlayed her STRIDE work into a 5-6 year graduate fellowship at Princeton. </p>
<p>When all is said and done, she’ll get a great education at either school. Congratulations!</p>
<p>Tomboat, your daughter’s experience directly mirrors my daughter’s from two years ago. She, too, was valedictorian at her high school, and the choice also really came down to Smith (with a STRIDE) and Wellesley. When visiting the schools, she had the same overnight experiences, which was eye-opening for her because she was in love with Wellesley at the time. The amount of financial help for us from the two schools was significantly different, however, as Wellelsey offered about half of of Smith’s STRIDE. So for us it was a less complicated equation. How could our daughter turn down doing one-on-one research with a professor for two years AND more money? The STRIDE experience has been truly invaluable to our daughter, opened up a whole world to her and impacted her major/minor choices. She’s not afraid of doing significant research and she loves it! I think it was a strong reason why Oxford accepted her for study abroad next spring. What an opportunity! </p>
<p>It’s becoming tight for time, but have you called the Smith Financial Aid office and explained the situation to them? They may be able to come closer to meeting Wellesley’s offer. You will have to FAX Wellelsey’s offer to Smith for them to evaluate it. Go for it! You have nothing to lose.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, your daughter has two wonderful choices! Congratulations! Let us know how it turns out.</p>
<p>Tomboat, First of all, congratulations to your daughter! We are in the same quandry–Smith v. Wellesley–and so I’m much more objective than the other posters on this board. I know exactly what you are going through. They are both such exceptional opportunities–with completely different atmospheres. We keep going back and forth. We spent Sunday walking around Wellesley hoping for a sign, either way, and have revisited Smith several times over the winter and at Open Campus. We will have debt, either way. (I know which one I would choose, but it’s not my decision to make.)</p>
<p>Your daughter has a feeling about Smith–and that’s important. I say trust it.</p>
<p>If I were in your shoes, I would turn to my daughter and congratulate her on her wonderful opportunities and tell her that $20,000 worth of loans isn’t that much to enter the working world with, especially since she is already a Smith Star–with a STRIDE! If I were you, I would trust in my daughter’s gut and think of the STRIDE as one of many successes she will have at Smith. Put the chips on her. Trust her gut. The odds are definitely on your side. (I’ll let you know how our spin of the wheel turns out in a few days.)</p>
<p>While at Smith open campus I met with financial aid and showed them the Wellesley financial aid award letter. They did a review and my original post reflects the numbers after the review, an increase in aid of almost 3k so I really can’t complain. I know my D is getting a very good deal at either school so it probably does just boil down to “fit”. The STRIDE program is great and I was very impressed with the breadth of research at the poster presentation.
She also got accepted to MOHO w/21century scholarship but was even more lukewarm after an overnight there although she thought it is a very beautiful campus. She also loved Brandeis and felt it would be a good fit even though it is very different from the others but financial aid nixed that option.</p>
<p>My D liked some other places, too, but money was much more generous as Smith, Wellesley and MHC. She’s a sensible girl, who knew the money might steer the discussion. Your family has been doing the rounds, as we have, complete with FA reviews, and must be as tired of this as we are. My D, this morning pretty much said she can’t take any more!</p>
<p>My daughter too gets to decide among Smith, Wellesley, and a coed school not in New England, so I know what you’re going through. At the Wellesley parent/alum reception last Thursday, I was in a four person conversation with two Wellesley alums and a parent who has almost precisely the same daughter as Tomboat (I don’t think it’s the same situation, however, as the numbers are different). I mentioned how valuable the STRIDE opportunities could be, including the research opportunities, at which point the Wellesley alums both said, almost simultaneously, that every Wellesley student can do research with a professor her first year if she wants to. One of them said, “Everyone here has the STRIDE research opportunity.” I can’t vouch for the representation, but that’s what was said less than a week ago at Wellesley when presented with a very similar situation.
Both alums, however, said that the fit and feel were more important for the prospects faced with the decision. One of the alums had chosen Wellesley over Smith following her back-to-back overnights. Others on this board’s discussion of this question report the reverse experience. That’s probably the best advice to follow, because as many have pointed out, the money, while real, is going to be a fraction of what comes in and goes out over a lifetime.
Whatever my daughter decides once she’s done torturing herself over it, it’s going to be a good decision. I think the same will be true of your daughter’s decision.</p>
<p>I agree with you that the opportunities are great at both fantastic women’s colleges. It’s the place your daughter feels best–when the offers are so close. It seems like a big different today, but over a lifetime, not so much.
ac–I’m curious about how the co-ed school is figuring into the conversation. How do you also factor that variable in?</p>
<p>I would amend the Wellesley quote to “ALMOST everyone here has the STRIDE research opportunity.” My D was in the same Smith vs Wellesley boat, but when she talked to professors in her prospective major at Wellesley, they were very clear that they did not do research with undergrads. Game over, “Hello Smith!” Granted, in my shock I tried to soften the blow by talking to other professors at the event, and one very nice professor did say “[that department] is an outlier in that respect.” It made me laugh, but it didn’t help my daughter. Call up your daughter’s prospective department just to make sure.</p>
<p>Well, I think it’s true at both Smith and Wellesley that any first year who wants to probably CAN do research with a professor starting their first year. But it’s not garaunteed unless you’re in a STRIDE program. </p>
<p>Now, I don’t want to oversell STRIDE too much, because I do know people who were STRIDE scholars who ended up not really putting that much into their projects and/or not doing a project that really had much to do with what they ended up doing in the future. It’s not a golden ticket. But it is a really good opportunity, and for those that are willing to put some effort into it and try to use it to its best advantage it can be a big advantage. Like most things in life, you get out of it what you put into it.</p>
<p>I can’t speak for the sciences. But (and I once taught at Chicago, and know what was available when my d. was searching, and she is now a grad student at Princeton), there are virtually NO paid research-assistantship opportunities in the humanities offered regularly anywhere that I know of outside Smith, and certainly not in the first two years.</p>
<p>I know a little about how difficult, time-consuming, and expensive it has been for Smith to make these opportunities available, and to match students to them (and they haven’t always been successful, it is worth adding.) If an alum in the humanities had said these opportunities were readily available elsewhere, I would have asked them to name them.</p>
<p>ProfDad: What was the Wellesley outlier department that doesn’t do research with undergrads?</p>
<p>mustangmom, I wish I knew how the decision-making process will turn out. My daughter has always been in a coed environment and many of her academic and social peers have Y chromosomes. It’s not a surprise to me that she has kept a coed school in the mix to the end. I will say, however, that the four days out of nine that she spent at Smith and Wellesley’s admitted students events certainly drilled into her the benefits of the all double-X schools. </p>
<p>Question, perhaps for S&P and others familiar with STRIDE, the answer to which I think I already know. My daughter is not a STRIDE offeree. Is there any kind of second-class-citizen thing going on with non-STRIDErs?</p>
<p>No, she’ll still be able to do research, particularly if she is in the sciences, it just won’t be garaunteed as I said, so she’ll need to seek it out. Humanities research projects may be somewhat more difficult to come by, but it depends on what she’s interested in. Profs who need assistants will often register right on the Smith jobs website. If she is interested in a more formalized program of research, she can apply to be a Kahn Institute fellow later on (you can find more info about the Kahn Institute online. It’s basically a research institute run through Smith that amalgamates a variety of different liberal arts research in different disciplines, including science, humanities, the arts, etc.). </p>
<p>Once you’re on campus, no one really knows who is a STRIDE and who isn’t. I guess the main difference is that a first year student on work study has to work in the dining halls or in the tutoring program, whereas a first year STRIDE will get to work as a research assistant. But it usually equals out in the end, as the research assistantship is not for all four years (and having another campus job does not in and of itself disqualify you from working on research projects).</p>
<p>My D came down to Wellesley vs. Smith and decided upon gut feel…she was just more comfortable at Smith. STRIDE certainly didn’t hurt. My D is now heading off to a top PhD program but found the payments on her $20K debt very manageable on a modest “first job” salary.</p>
<p>I think the objective criteria are close enough that going on gut feel, whichever direction she goes between Wellesley and Smith, is valid…however much we might miss her if she chooses Wellesley.</p>
<p>Oh, I guess I wasn’t clear. Lots of students, at all top schools, do research. Many write theses, some are in programs like the Kahn Institute. You certainly don’t have to be a STRIDE to do research at Smith (or anywhere else).</p>
<p>What is unique - and I mean REALLY unique - is a paid research assistantship to a professor doing her/his research in the humanities, especially in the first two years (though when I was at Chicago, there were NONE for upperclasspeople either - that’s what they paid ME, and now my Princeton daughter, for.) The difference is how quickly, and how intensively, one joins a community of scholars.</p>
<p>Now, let’s be clear. While there are great benefits in working (for pay) with a faculty member on research as soon as one arrives, it is not a be-all-and-end-all. A student might prefer to be doing her OWN research (and will get the opportunity). Or no research at all. It is only one in an array of opportunities. So it shouldn’t be oversold. But on the other hand, it is unique, and folks who are at schools claiming the same thing frankly (from what I’ve seen) don’t know what they are talking about.</p>
<p>The difference between a STRIDE and non-STRIDE research at Smith or any other college/university (including Wellesley) is that the student connects with a professor and his/her research from the first day and is paid for it. My daughter, who didn’t have a STRIDE, had to solicit research positions, many of which were already filled by STRIDEs, and did the work for free. Yes, she had the opportunities, and yes, she was accepted by graduate school right out of Smith, but she had to wait until she had established herself as a major. At both colleges, students have access to undergraduate research, but the STRIDE makes a real difference in that the student chooses the research project before she arrives on campus. </p>
<p>So there is a difference between having research opportunities available to all undergraduates (at Smith and at Wellesley) and a STRIDE. That said, her gut feeling about where she wants to go should be a strong factor.</p>
<p>@TheDad, I saw that your D did Econ so I thought that you might be familiar with the Econ dept. I didn’t get a STRIDE but am interested in the possibility of attending graduate school, and hence research. Do you have any idea how the research opportunities are, specifically for Econ? Also, as a first year, possibility of doing research w/o STRIDE is pretty low right?</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for all of the replies and discussion. This has been a long and grueling process but it’s over now. The offer from Wellesley was too good to pass up but
We passed anyway and my D will be a happy Smithie! I’m not going to count my money, I’m going to count my blessings. Starting with: Thank heaven I only have one kid! I don’t know how you people with more than one in college ever got through this.
Thanks again.</p>