I'm so very confused. Please help.

Colleges and Universities A-Z Smith College
1

<p>May 1 is approaching far too quickly, and I'm facing a conundrum. </p>

<p>For nearly two years, I've been extremely enamored of Smith. It seems like a good fit for me, barring the distance from home (almost 900 miles)--in fact, it seems like the best fit, academically and personally, of any college on my list. I was accepted as a STRIDE and love the additional opportunities my research position would offer. I was also accepted to Wellesley.</p>

<p>The main conflict in my mind at present, unfortunately, is not the typical Smith vs. Wellesley question, but rather the eastern liberal arts college versus the giant state university. I was accepted to the University of Michigan as part of their "residential college" program, which attempts to offer smaller classes sizes and a tighter community through certain academic requirements and by holding some classes in the dorm in which its members live. I don't feel at home at Michigan; it's far too large, not to mention I am definitely not a football fan and the city of Ann Arbor is quite too busy for my taste. I relish the idea of sitting around a seminar table with a smattering of other students in the midst of a riveting discussion of last night's reading, not hunching over with my laptop in the back of a three-hundred-person lecture hall. </p>

<p>However, as you may have guessed, Michigan is far less expensive than my eastern LACs. They gave me a scholarship to cover half the cost of attendance and another $5,500 in loans (for a total debt of $22,000) , meaning that my parents would probably pay about $5,000 a year--the maximum we can really afford. Smith and its seven sister peer would cost us about $20,000 a year, so I'd be maybe $60,000 or even $70,000 in debt by graduation. This is hard to stomach, even for what is essentially my ideal college, especially considering my strong desire to attend graduate school. </p>

<p>I started a similar thread on the Michigan forum and it generated far more discussion than I would have imagined. Understandably, each forum is going to present at least a slightly biased approach to my question, but I would eagerly welcome the opinions of Smith students/alumnae/associates/etc.</p>

<p>Time is running out to make my decision, and I desperately need guidance. What should I do?</p>

2

<p>How much are your parents willing/able to pay? Are they only willing to pay the 5,000 it would cost you to go to Michigan, or are they willing to pay a bit more of the added Smith burden? Will they take out loans for this or will you be responsible for all of the debt? That’s really what you need to figure out. What advice are they giving you? They probably know you the best of all. </p>

<p>Once you know what your situation is, then I guess you have to think about how much it is worth to you. College is important and having a great college experience is important, but sometimes I think too much emphasis is placed on it by boards like these and by ourselves. Michigan might seem foreboding now, but you might be able to make it work. You’d meet people and have chances you can’t even dream of now. And you would have more choices after graduation. </p>

<p>With a heavy debt load, you’ll need to look at getting a job right away, that might constrain some of your major choices (not that a philosophy major can’t find a real world job, but you know, it’s a little tougher). You would probably need to put off grad school for a while (not a bad decision really, you think you want to go to grad school now, but believe me that will probably change) unless you got into a program where you could basically work off your tuition via TA work. </p>

<p>I think you need to have a frank discussion with your parents and then a frank discussion with yourself. You should go online and find one of those debt calculators and figure out how long it would take you to pay off all of the debt you’re incurring. </p>

<p>No one can tell you what to do or what is best for you in this situation. Unfortunately this is one decision you need to make on your own.</p>

3

<p>If your primary concern is money vs class sizes, I would choose the cheaper option. $50,000 is a big price to pay to take calculus with 30 students instead of 300. </p>

<p>For most classes 30 vs 300 students makes no difference at all; you would get a lecture in either case. Most of the huge lecture classes at Michigan are intro classes - especially the sort that students take for general ed requirements. Major-specific classes will be smaller, and upper-level electives can be the size of an upper-level class at Smith. 46% of the classes at Michigan have less than 20 students. At Smith that’s 66%. Sure there’s a difference, but it’s not two different worlds.</p>

<p>When I visited Yale, I sat in on a political science lecture with around 70 students. It did not feel impersonal at all! The lecturer was more engaging than most of my professors at Bryn Mawr, and each student in the class signed up for one of three discussion sections where students had a chance to ask questions and discuss points that were made in class. I imagine that big lectures at Michigan would work much the same way.</p>

<p>Or look at the plus side: Michigan offers a much greater variety of classes! You could choose from 30 upper-level computer science classes instead of 4, or from 70 history classes instead of 15. You could also try classes that are not offered at all at Smith - communications or sign language or criminology or marketing.</p>

<p>I should say at this point that I am not a student at Smith. I am a Bryn Mawr student who immensely enjoyed the small college environment in her first two years, but now wishes that she was attending a larger university. The academic options at a small school can feel very limiting once you start developing narrow interests inside your major.</p>

4

<p>That’s a hard choice. I went to Smith and then to grad school at Michigan. I liked both experiences and think they are fantastic schools, but it would have been a lot harder for me to make friends at UM as an undergrad. With that said, being in the RC at UM or joining something that provides you with a ready-made pool of friends (a religious group, a sorority, etc.) can do that for you, so long as you pick a group that has people with whom you want to be friends. </p>

<p>In addition, while I learned a lot at Smith and liked my professors, there were things I would’ve loved to study in undergrad that weren’t really options at Smith (Journalism. Informatics. Sign Language. Nonprofit management) and there are so many more professors and clubs at Michigan (I wish Smith had a quiz bowl team and a wrestling club, two things I tried out when I got to UM). If you’re a whiz at a certain subject, UM probably has graduate-level classes in it and Smith probably does not. But at UM you’ll have more requirements to fulfill so you might not get to enjoy all the higher-levels classes that are taught. </p>

<p>Academically, I bet I would have done equally well at both schools but socially Smith was a clear winner for me. Your mileage may vary, as will the monetary value you’re willing to place on your social life. But I think if you go into it with an open mind you will make friends and be happy at either school. One of my closest friends and I met during a summer internship in undergrad; she was attending UM at the time. She had a fantastic academic experience there–got to do research, knew many professors well, wrote a thesis, got excellent grades. Most of her classes were under 40 students. She got a good job after graduation and is now at a top law school. She has good friends from college–and she has no debt from undergrad. </p>

<p>Finally, regardless of which school you choose, it may be possible to do a semester or year “abroad” at the other. A Smith classmate of mine took a leave from Smith, enrolled in UM for a few months, and transferred her credits over–she saved a boatload of money just from that semester.</p>

5

<p>Phanatic, I see that you are an in-state student for UMich. I’m guessing that you had wanted to go somewhere else, somewhere new. If you go to UMich, it will seem new and different and definitely a world apart from your current life. You will feel as reborn as you would at Smith, simply because the college experience is all-consuming. I’ve known students who have attended the same university where their parents teach, and they still feel completely separate from home and family. As long as you live in dorms or off-campus with other students, you’ll feel miles away from home.</p>

<p>Finances are indeed a serious consideration in a case like yours. You don’t want your debt to make life choices for you. If you had a choice between Smith and Podunk U, Smith’s higher debt might be worth it, but UMich is a fine school that will offer you many opportunities. As it stands now, unless your parents are able to shoulder some of the debt themselves, I think your decision has been made: UMich. The residential college system may give a small college feel within the larger university. </p>

<p>Although I would love to see you at Smith, I know that you’ll do well wherever you go.</p>

6

<p>My dad is urging me to think strongly of finances, but he and my mom both say that if I really want Smith, they will make it work for me. They liked the college as much as I did and knew that I felt at home there. It’s just the money, and the fact that I won’t know anyone in a place far away, that makes them pause. If I want to go there, though, they’ll pay what they can afford (the $5,000 I mentioned) and then take out loans that we would work together to pay back.</p>

<p>I think the points about the variety of courses at Michigan are somewhat valid, but a lot of the science classes I could take easily at Smith would be in the engineering school at Michigan. I was accepted to the “College of Literature, Science, and the Arts,” which is not so focused on sciences at it might seem. Computer science classes, for example, which were something I wanted to take in college, are offered by the engineering school, about forty minutes from where my dorm would be. As a devoted Quiz Bowler, the greatest thing Michigan has going for it in my mind (other than the cost) is the fact that they do have a thriving Quiz Bowl team, something I would miss at Smith.</p>

<p>I understand that there may not be much of a difference in the content of some of the classes, but I feel more comfortable knowing that, at Smith, I’d be taught by a professor, not a graduate student. I’ve heard less than rave reviews about the graduate student instructors at Michigan, and I’m worried that unless I give 200% effort to stay focused, I’ll become totally disengaged.</p>

<p>A lot of my friends are going to Michigan because that’s just what you do around here: if you’re smart, you go to Michigan. I’d have some friends already built-in, but I’m a bit shy and I think it would be hard for me to make more at Michigan, kind of like how stacy mentioned that it would have been harder for her to make friends as an undergrad there. On the other hand, I know how Smith has been known to be a place where shy girls turn blossom into gregarious women. </p>

<p>I just don’t know, though. I know no one else can make this choice for me, but it’s so hard. :/</p>

7

<p>Um, at Smith, my daughter took two courses taught by graduate students from UMass, one in math and one in neuroscience. So Smith cannot claim that all students are taught by “real” professors. That said, the relationships between students and faculty members are very close. My D had no trouble selecting professors to write her letters of recommendation for graduate school. In a larger university, that may end up being more of an issue.</p>

<p>The style of a liberal arts education is often quite different, however. Except for introductory courses, classes are more discussion-based, and the students tend to do more presentation-style research. That’s not to say that discussion-based courses don’t exist at UMich, just that they may not be as prevalent. </p>

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<p>Yes. This. But that doesn’t mean it won’t happen to you elsewhere.</p>

<p>Don’t get me wrong. I love Smith. My daughter reaped huge rewards from it and will continue to do so as she moves on. But you will be all right if you go to UMich.</p>

8

<p>Tough choice.</p>

<p>I’ll take some issue with B@ re class size…it’s not just the class size, it’s the philosophy behind them. At many universities, certain math and science classes are “weeder” classes, designed to pare down the field. I know that in Math Smith is not like that at all and from what I’ve heard about classes like O Chem, neither are the sciences. </p>

<p>For some students, the “Smith bubble” can start to chafe a little by senior year (others don’t want to leave) but I view that as a good sign that you’re ready to move on.</p>

<p>If the financial burden were on you solely, I’d say you have to take U/M. But if your parents <em>can</em>, and are willing, to take on the load, I’d go with Smith. We took out loans equivalent to that of a high-end luxury SUV car loan and while the payments are a tedious drag, I don’t regret it for a minute. Best money we ever spent, beyond purchasing our home and if we have to be slightly less expansive than we would otherwise be, not a problem.</p>

<p>Fwiw, I was strongly biased towards large universities. Not only my own degree, but TheMom has worked at UCLA for 30 years (and UCLA’s closest “comp” is U/Michigan). We compared the UCLA and Smith experiences and were blown away by Smith’s advantages.</p>

9

<p>“We took out loans equivalent to that of a high-end luxury SUV car loan”</p>

<p>I love this analogy TheDad and I have used it to think of paying for my daughter’s education. She is like you phanatic and offered the STRIDE. In addition, she was offered a very good merit scholarship and honors admission at our fine public, UNC-CH. If she went to Chapel Hill, she will do fine and it is the most affordable (my son goes). However, she has always wanted to go to a small LAC and worked hard (1/500 4.0uw/5.0w plus leadership and sports) to put herself in a position to attend an elite LAC. Therefore, I am willing to take out loans to allow her the opportunity. She has been to visit UNC several times and has spent the night and she just can’t see how she’ll fit in. She did her part, and I am willing to help. </p>

<p>She won’t be attending Smith (see thread “Should she visit?”) but will go to another elite LAC. So, if going to an LAC has always been important to you, I suspect your parents feel similar to me. If my D decided to go to UNC, she would take a gap year to fit in some EC’s that the good LACs have built in (such as language immersion).</p>

10

<p>I don’t know whether to send you a PM but since stacy’s also at UM… I’ll add a little. I’m finishing up my masters at Michigan after attending LACs for undergrad. </p>

<p>It’s a TOUGH choice I would say given your situation. Congrats on getting into the RC program. I am actually finishing up an intensive German course there and I am just blown away by the RC experience. You will get so much attention in your RC courses because the classes aren’t big at all. If I had known about this little gem at Michigan, I would’ve applied!</p>

<p>I agree with you that coming to Michigan is what you do if you’re smart (if you’re a jock, you go to MSU). It is a privilege to have that sort of public University in your own state. It does seem to me that there are a number of in-state Michigan students who seem to be “homebodies”, going home on weekends more often than they “should.” There aren’t as many Michigan students studying abroad as I had thought but I’m sure there are various reasons, including graduation requirements. One of the things you do need to look at, though, is how do graduation requirements at Michigan compare to those at Smith for Latin Honors (usually used to guide first years in selecting courses if not quite what to do). There is absolutely no way out of 4 semesters of a foreign language (unless you qualify and only have to do 2 semesters). You’re in LSA- that’s not really a bad thing at all. It is reputated to be the school for the “undecided” just because there are undergraduates who are in the music school, Ross, and engineering. You CAN still transfer over to any of those school for your sophomore year if you decide it’s where you want to be.</p>

<p>One thing, you mentioned engineering. Smith has a contract with Michigan for a 3-2 engineering program. So you can do no wrong by going to Smith for 3 years and then going to Michigan to finish up all those advanced engineering classes. You can be spared of all the introductory weeder courses (premeds here are extremely competitive) and be able to come to Michigan when classes are small and people are stressed out in a different way (not “BEAT THE CURVE!” way). But remember, Smith’s engineering program is quite rigorous and leaves very little time for extra electives. So I’m not sure… exactly how much you want to do engineering but just a thought there.</p>

<p>Coming to Michigan dispelled a lot of myths and misconceptions that I had that I realized that one just needs to do more thorough research on a school to see that Michigan just operates on a bigger scale than a LAC. When I found out how engaging a number of professors can be with their 100+ person classes, I was surprised! There are so many terrific opportunities that, even though I’m a grad student, I took advantage of them! I was like, “THIS IS MICHIGAN! When will I have a chance to do X or Y again?!” I’m shy too but you just have to find your niche and Michigan has over 1000 areas of niches that you can try to find.</p>

<p>And, who are you say that Ann Arbor seems too busy? It’s just a tad bigger than Northampton! :slight_smile: Learn to walk across State Street towards Main and you’ll find another side of Ann Arbor that isn’t totally occupied by Michigan students.</p>

<p>Nonetheless, both student bodies at Smith and Michigan are very active, bright, and engaging. What I found different though is the level of competition. Michigan students are very competitive and driven to succeed and they expect that the Michigan name will get them anywhere, including top graduate schools. Smith is also competitive in a different manner. Students look to succeed in breaking gender barriers. The all-women’s environment fosters self-esteem and confidence that a Smithie can do anything that she sets her mind to (whereas at Michigan, you might feel a bit self-conscious with the guys). They also tend to be more collaborative so you will have constant support from your housemates and classmates. Although, I must admit that I’m not seeing enough of “female power” in student organizations at Michigan as I’d like to see.</p>

<p>I’m not advocating for one school or the other now that I have had the Michigan experience. I think that it is only once you get past your first year, things fall in place a bit more. Think about what is it that you need to have in order to succeed in your first year and explain them to your parents. At the end, it’s not going to matter AS much because both are excellent schools that provide superior academics and opportunities on their own scales. It’s just so happens that Michigan’s name is a bit of a given.</p>

11

<p>Phanatic, you and your parents will make the right decision about the money. We have twins; our daughter is a STRIDE at Smith and her brother is at another LAC with comparable aid/merit money. They both were accepted at UMass Amherst (our daughter in the Honors College) which would have been cheaper, but we knew that LACs were the right choice for them and we bit the bullet. We are thrilled they are thriving.</p>

<p>Regarding your being so far from home, very quickly you would be surrounded by a whole house-ful of friends who will look out for you, so your parents wouldn’t need to worry. Also, if you haven’t learned about Skype, you should. It’s a great way to have a relaxing face-to-face, free visit online with your parents; we love chatting with our son (the gadget-lover) with some regularity; it’s really easy. In fact, our son loves the accessibility of Skype so much, he walked my in-laws through the steps so he could Skype with them!</p>

<p>The alum networking at Smith is fabulous, an example of which was recently posted by Jyber209 (“Just need to convince my parents…” thread). I know that UMich has a strong identity as an institution but I don’t know how that translates to alum networking. </p>

<p>Your having a STRIDE would give you a unique experience to do research so early in your college career, but if you had your ear to the ground at UMichigan and were willing to ask for research opportunities, I’m sure you could find them.</p>

<p>I was just about to post, when I noticed ticklemepink’s comments. She has some very good points, but the one thing that stands out to me is that she is now a grad student, not just starting out her college career. My husband, who went to a large Ivy League school, and I both believe that LACs are excellent for undergrad and universities are great for grad school because you’ve had some experience, developed confidence and you’ve learned what you want to focus on and how to advocate for yourself. Clearly ticklemepink is having a ball; she’s using the larger university setting well as a grad student.</p>

<p>I would love for you to go to Smith, but regardless of where you go, I’m sure you’ll make the most of the opportunities given to you.</p>

12

<p>Phanatic, if you and your parents can make Smith work, then go for it. When my daughter applied, we were faced with free tuition at one excellent university (faculty benefits) or nearly full-freight at one of the LACs that accepted her. We gladly paid for Smith because we saw that it was probably the best place for her and because we could swing it. Although it has been a tough four years, we haven’t regretted it. But because of savings and both of our abilities to pick up extra work, we were able to afford a lot more than $5000 a year. You and your parents will have to weigh the benefits of Smith against the debt. Somehow you’re going to have to decide your family’s tipping point. </p>

<p>I’m always an advocate of spending more to attend Smith, but not at the cost of crushing debt.</p>

13

<p>Oh, one more point: if Smith and Wellesley gave you the same FA offers, then both have decided that you and your family can afford the debt. It would be an entirely different matter if the two offers varied wildly.</p>