It is fundamentally wrong to think that highly capable students need less resources to succeed, (my definition of success is that we allow students to achieve their full potential). My view is that the students at either extreme of ability need more resources to fully achieve their potential than the ones in the middle.
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That New Yorker article seems to define success at magnet schools as propelling students into higher percentiles. Thatâs generally not even possible. Students in the top percentiles, with very few exceptions, will remain in the top percentiles. The success of a magnet school isnât measured by whether it made its students relatively better than students in regular schools (they already are) but whether theyâre better on the absolute basis than they would be had they attended regular schools.
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First, the idea that kids who arenât at magnet schools arenât interested in or capable of studying ârigorous geometryâ is not only inaccurate, it is insulting. Second, perhaps if magnet schools didnât syphon off the best, most capable, and most qualified teachers, then even more students would find more success. Even in ârigorous geometry.â
But these supposedly âhighly capableâ kids are being given more resources, not less resources. Is it fundamentally wrong to think that highly capable students need more resources to succeed?
A lovely idea and one I would fully embrace if only educational resources were unlimited. But in situations where resources are limited, what is the justification for giving kids in magnet schools more resources than the rest?
IMO it it is a much better use of taxpayer dollars to teach X to read than it to teach Y Multivariable Calculus, Differential Equations, and beyond (especially given that Y will probably end up retaking those courses in college anyway, if they pursue math)
I have no problem with the latter provided that money is no object and the education of rest of the students doesnât suffer, but in the scenario being discussed, the Magnet schools are costing the public relatively more and the money is needed elsewhere.
Like with @roycroftmom above, Iâm wondering whether you are referring to the same article I linked above. Except for the comment I quoted, there no discussion of âpropelling students into higher percentiles.â âHigher percentilesâ of what?
I think if you read the article you will see that at least the teachers and students believe that the students receive a better education than they would had they attended a school other than Lowell.
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You may think itâs insulting but itâs the reality in many schools, unfortunately. I donât know what schools you (or your kids) went to. You seem to be detached from the reality. In order to offer an advanced class in high school, it needs scale. Few regular high schools have enough students interested in and/or capable of taking an advanced geometry class, for example.
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Very true. A lot of advanced classes in our high school are lightly subscribed. For example a number theory class had some 8-9 kids. Half from the junior class and half from the senior class. Some years the class doesnât have critical mass if it falls below 3-4 kids.
Yes, thatâs probably from a very good high school.
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From what I read here, it seems that the stronger-in-math students these days take geometry in 8th grade or earlier, as part of the math acceleration race that is so common. Hence, by the time students reach high school, the strongest-in-math student have already completed geometry.
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Every high school in the country would benefit from having a highly qualified and capable geometry teacher.
If you are referring to college level advanced geometry, topology, or other college level math courses like Differential Geometry, Multivariable Calculus, Number Theory, etc. then you (and @neela1) make my point for me.
Public school systems are spending a lot to accommodate courses for which there are little demand, which are well beyond the high school level, and which will probably have to be repeated anyway. These courses for high school kids are at best a niche extracurricular pursuit, and a luxury offering for many public school districts.
Geometry in 7th or 8th is not unusual for some 10%-15% of the class.
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Yet @1NJParent apparently believes geometry is somehow beyond the capabilities and interests of the students at many public high schools.
There is nothing niche and extracurricular. All the kids who have done number theory in high school (or courses of that kind) have gone on to take much stronger coursework in college, and have seen significant benefit from the exercise.
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If it is trivial I donât see why it is not offered in public high schools.
I purposely used geometry as an example. The geometry curriculum has been diluted so much across the country (with some exceptions, of course). The dilution was advocated by those who used the same argument about access. Whatâs left in âgeometryâ at many places donât really teach what make geometry valuable: a skill needed to study other math subjects rigorously.
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In our state, the schools are funded per student with the state and federal money. The magnet schools (and the charter schools) get the same per student funding as the other schools in the district. They actually get more for special need students and not as many of those go to magnets. The schools can raise their own funds, but Iâm not sure those funds can be used for teacher salaries (but certainly can be used for teacher âextrasâ like tutoring, equipment, field trips, books).
Some districts have a lot more money than others but thatâs because school district funds come from real estate taxes, so of course Aspen is going to have more money than Commerce City. My friendâs son went to a public school (in the best district in the metro area) and if a class wanted to take a field trip, one of the NHL players just paid for the bus for the whole class, or they paid for supplies that were needed, or for an improvement to the playground. The schools everyone wants to go to arenât necessary the magnet schools but the high schools in the best districts and they are the best because the district has a big per student budget (biggest houses=highest real estate taxes). They also have much more successful athletic teams than the magnets.
Our School of the Arts (which is a BOCES school and supported by 5 school districts) cannot offer as many AP classes, languages, specialty classes as some of the students want, so they either take those at their âhomeâ high school or at another school that is close by. And many students take courses like calc or lab sciences at community colleges or one of the many colleges in the area.
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I wasnât talking about topology or differential geometry. Iâm talking about plain old Euclidean geometry.
Since this was discussed upthread I figured Iâd share this here.
In October 2020, the San Francisco school board voted to install a lottery-based admissions system in hopes of diversifying the student body and expanding access as social justice changes gained momentum in California. The board made that policy permanent in early 2021.
But the moves angered many city parents, particularly Asian Americans, who felt it unfairly limited their childrenâs long-sought entry into one of the nationâs top-performing schools.
So on Wednesday evening, the newly constituted school board, with three members appointed by Mayor London Breed, took up the issue. And in a marked shift, it voted 4-3 to reinstate merit-based admissions at Lowell for fall 2023.
You just explained that even at your high quality high school these courses only draw 8 to 9 kids per year, and they some years donât even draw 3 or 4, and these courses arenât even offered at most high schools.
As for whether the students benefit or go on to study higher math, I donât doubt it. My guess is these same kids could have followed a very similar trajectory if they had taken these types of courses outside of the public schools or in college. Regardless, this has nothing to do with whether money should be funneled from other students at other so that a few students can have the taxpayers foot the for them to study these courses in high school.
I was focusing on the notion that the supposed âhighly capableâ kids at magnet schools should and/or do get more money per student than other schools within the same district.
Then my comments stand.
Class size is a 140. Not a 500 sized class.
Some policy maker is always deciding whether you are too hardworking to deserve extra resources. This is always the problem. Out there in California they want to cut Math standards some more. The good thing then is that Math doesnât need to be funded at all. And we can just pour the education system down the drain :-). All this debate will be moot then.
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Why would they âdeserve extra resourcesâ one way or another?
Exactly. Why would a âhighly capableâ student or a âmagnet schoolâ student deserve any more resources than a neighborhood school student? All students should be valued the same, regardless of what math level they are in or whatever.
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