EconPop:
small correction: TJ is in Fairfax County, Virginia, a suburb of D.C. Fairfax is rather wealthy: $150k median income, a third over $200k.
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Thanks for sharing the USAMO list. I am stunned by the dominance of Asians, much more than I expected. Why are White students avoiding math? Unlike URMs, I donât think itâs due to economics or resources.
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This is a very good point. Math contests are really just thatâcontests. Time might be better spent learning more advanced math beyond the AP curriculum offered instead of trying to solve problems in as fast a period of time as possible. This could include multivariable/vector calculus, linear algebra, differential equations, number theory, differential geometry, etc⊠And how about channeling this talent into doing research that could lead to a publication? Otherwise, it kind of becomes like Quiz Bowl or Jeopardy. What is really being accomplished?
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I think you raise good questions and I do not know the answers. I would say that there are kids out there that love math as much as playing sports and they thrive and are excited by being around similar kids. In some respects, they do not speak the same language in the math classroom. Many think this is due to a parent âpushingâ them and perhaps that is sometimes true, but from what I have experienced it is incredibly hard to push kids to do math unless they âget itâ. FWIW, I do not get it, DS does.
I think there is significant value for us to provide a few exceptional places where these kids can be together. Will they do something amazing? Some will, many will not as they have their own set of specific issues they deal with. I think there is a lot of harm to them by not providing accelerated opportunities. Perhaps the issue is many think they are getting something extra and it is not fair? I am not sure why there is such strong resistance to trying to get them challenged.
In a world where the US is falling behind in STEM, I hope we continue to provide resources for those at the top and do not care if they come from wealth or not. I also hope we provide opportunities for all, not just those whose parents can afford it.
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Well, weâre talking about TJ here which is in Fairfax with 180,000 students. A school like TJ couldnât exist either in a smaller area because there wouldnât be enough teachers or students to fill it
I find it deeply odd that you believe kids who are very good at tests wonât do better on tests than kids who are less good at tests, if offered the same education. If you donât see much difference on the ACT (and Iâm sure there would be some difference), then that is mostly due to the test not being sufficiently long tail to distinguish the most talented students.
More importantly, while top colleges may arguably be looking for a class with a variety of talents and therefore might consider more than just test scores, this is a high school of âScience and Technologyâ. It should select the best students in science, just like a high school of âPerforming Artsâ should select those who have the greatest artistic talent.
Iâve not seen arguments that a performing arts school should select by a lottery rather than an audition, even though some students will be less well prepared or have a bad day (and those with wealthy parents who pay for training are certainly at an enormous advantage). So why the objections to a specialist science school selecting on the basis of a math and science test?
And it would be even more bizarre to say that there shouldnât be provision for these students in public schools. All that does is prevent those students whose parents arenât wealthy from accessing specialist education.
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There are many kids doing just that. Theyâll try Math Olympiads and then realize itâs a narrow path with a fixed end goal. Some kids WILL try some of the things you mentioned. Some will take college level classes and some will actually self study or apply skills to other areas.
@lost
White students arenât avoiding math at all. Itâs just that some nationalities value the contest aspect of math and some donât. If you grow up in a culture where there is a really hard test that only a handful of kids score well in vs. millions who donât meet the bar, then you might value that. There are lots of students of all nationalities doing mathy things outside of this venue.
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I donât think it is the duty of a public school to ignore enriching one set of students at the benefit of another set of students based on a âtestâ. A public school districtâs role should be to provide opportunities for all its students - not just a subset of students who can perform in the top 5% (or whatever the percentage is) on a 7th or 8th grade test.
If the Fairfax (thanks for the correction to those who provided it) county board thinks TJ should only be for students who can win national math competitions, Iâd like to see the studies that prove that is the best use of such a valuable resource.
My point is, a public school should provide equal opportunity for admission to a larger percentage of its students. Clearly, Iâm not focused on the same thing as some of the other respondents in this thread. I want the best opportunity to be available for all children. I do not want the best opportunity restricted to a chosen few based on broken decision making that is not going to produce a fairer opportunity for a greater percentage of students.
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The lottery in this case not for all students in the system. Itâs only for those that meet the minimum criteria 3.5 GPA. So you need to be a straight A student to even be considered in the lottery. Most straight A students with an interest to attend a STEM school like TJ could do well there.
There are way more qualified, straight A kids in Fairfax county than there are spots at TJ. Weâre just talking about how to select among the qualified not drop the standards about who gets in.
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I have not seen the TJ test but I suspect there is very little correlation between having straight As in middle school and doing well on the admissions exam. I would be more interested in finding the kids that do not have great grades as they completely switch off as the courses are mind numbingly easy.
I think many with top math talent do well on math competitions but certainly not all and hopefully there are ways to identify those kids too.
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My observation is that math education in K-12 in the US is problematic. It starts in elementary school where the majority of elementary school teachers donât have a background in math or science and are not great at teaching math, regardless of the math curriculum in place. A few of my kidsâ teachers were actually math phobic and shared this with the students. It then continues in the middle and high school levels where tracking separates not only the students based on knowledge or ability, but also separates the teachers based on effectiveness in math instruction. Iâll let you guess in which track the great math teachers end up.
Weâve experienced this with our kids, both of which tested into our school districtâs accelerated math program going into middle school (neither of my kids attended after school tutoring or enrichment programs but had the good fortune of having two parents at home with a facility in math that could answer questions when they popped up). My daughter followed the accelerated path and my son did not, for a variety of reasons, and the difference in quality of math instruction is pretty disheartening. The accelerated kids not only got more math instruction, they also got better math instruction. This is problematic in my opinion.
In the countries I was educated in, we were all doing algebra in elementary school and had basic analytic geometry, and differential and integral calculus by the end of high school. We all also had to take philosophy which was a help in mathematical thinking. We were not all good at it but it was expected of us. My 4th and 5th grade teachers had studied math at university and were crucial in establishing a rock solid foundation in algebra for many of their students that continued into STEM fields later on.
I hope all of these mathematical superstars on the list someone shared above decide to go into teaching one day, and not just at the high school level, but in elementary and middle too. I donât know enough about magnet schools to comment on how they should choose their students, but in our pretty high achieving district, the âmagnetâ school exists within our regular high school making the disparities in educational opportunities between the regular and the fast-track students even more glaring. I donât think reducing the amount of opportunities for students that have worked hard for them is the answer (what underlying message are we sending these kids?) but I would like to see the overall quality of math education improve and at least here in California the signs are not pointing in that direction.
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So your position is that there should be no specialist public high schools for performing arts either? If the argument is that resources are limited and must be spread equally, then the logical conclusion is that public schools should not provide enrichment and special support for disabled students either, since that is based on the âtestâ they must âpassâ to qualify for an IEP.
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I donât understand the attention that math is getting here. Why does it matter how advanced an incoming student is? TJ requires one year of calculus to graduate, and the website emphasizes collaboration, communication skills, and other aspects of learning more so than math.
With engineering, rarely is anything beyond basic calculus necessary. Many great engineers are terrible at math. But they are great with creativity, observing, dealing with uncertainty, collaboration, etc. I have never understood the connection that people make between good test-taking ability and career success / happiness. TJ has been around awhile. Iâm sure their grads are doing good things, but are they ruling the world yet?
There is nothing unique about TJ. There are mini-TJâs everywhere. But the publicity around this lawsuit seems to be bringing some deep issues to the table, including statements from former black and Hispanic students about the discomfort they felt while at TJ. I fear the lawsuit is only going to make that worse.
I can say with great confidence that TJ has missed out on some great talent by saluting the test. I am glad to see that they are trying to fix it.
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The raw talent has to be there, and coaching can help develop it.
In a way, itâs no different than a sport. No amount of coaching is going to make an uncoordinated 5â6" male into a basketball star, and no amount of coaching is going to take an average math kid and get them to reach anywhere close to USAMO.
I agree with both of you that a test-only method is tilted towards those that as mtmind wrote are âeconomically, educationally, and culturally situated to become more âadvancedâ in mathâ. And that approach by itself is not fair.
Where we seem to differ is the remedy.
My approach is based on the belief that innate STEM talent is widely dispersed across both race and SES. But that it is often not developed due to lack of high quality instruction. Therefore my proposed remedy is to make that high quality instruction available to everyone, starting from the sixth grade so that the innate but languishing talent can be identified and then given the opportunity to study at a school like TJ.
Donât lower the bar. Give more kids the opportunity to clear the bar.
Some kids specialize just on the contests. Others do multiple things, including advanced instruction and publications.
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Apparently, one that is too small to serve all students who are likely to be able to make use of and benefit from its academic offerings beyond what regular high schools offer. This is indicated by the competitive nature of its admission process â if it were large enough to serve all students who could benefit from it, then it can set baseline academic qualifications and admit all who meet them non-competitively.
That it is too small to do that promotes the scarcity / competitive / cutthroat / zero-sum mindset among parents and students. Combine that with the politics of race / ethnicity, and things are bound to get ugly.
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Perhaps that is true, but not necessarily. Although in general I would agree that there should be many more opportunities for kids as the general level in schools is lower than it should be for many.
Many parents see that there is an advanced program and push their kids to test to get into it. When these kids do gain admission many cannot keep up and all sorts of problems arise.
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There have been several posts that imply TJ admission was primarily based on test scores prior to the changes claimed to increase URM enrollment. This was not the case. Prior to COVID, TJ had a basic stats screen that half of applicants passed, so this stats/score screen was not the primary factor in admission. Instead getting from this semi-finalist stat screen to admission was a holistic process that considered personal qualities, LORs, essays, and other non-stat factors, in addition to math/science performance (both as measured by math/science GPA and math score, ⊠non math/science does not seem to be a focus beyond semi-finalist). The process seems to share a lot of similarities to the admission system commonly used at highly selective private colleges.
They switched to a new system that allocates TJ admission to 1.5% of students from each middle school. Students no longer needed to be among the top of all applicants â only the top 1.5% of students from their middle school. Top 1.5% was determined by GPA, problem solving essay, portrait sheet (personal qualities), experience, and other factors. Under the old system, TJ admits were concentrated in a few particular middle schools, often in wealthy areas with few URMs. And TJ admits were almost unheard of in certain other middle schools. The change to spots allocated to each middle school was a attempt to directly increase geographic diversity and indirectly increase racial diversity, which was extremely poor under the original system. They also changed the admission criteria, including not requiring scores. However, not requiring scores has been fairly standard during COVID. This doesnât strike me as the unique part.
Separately, there was also a proposal for a lottery system among students who very basic minimal requirements, which as I understand it was not implemented.
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Considering the companies that I have worked at, I have noticed a great overrepresentation of the following kinds of people in technical roles:
- Immigrants, probably originally on PhD student or skilled worker visas (in more math-heavy fields).
- First generation American kids of such immigrants.
I saw this for White people as well as Asian people in the workplaces, although since European immigrants are a relatively small portion of White people in the US, they and their kids are still a minority among White people in the workplaces, unlike Asian immigrants and their kids with respect to Asian people.
In addition, the number of European immigrants is small compared to the number of Asian immigrants. So it should be no surprise that, after importing high achievers in math-heavy fields heavily from Asia, the kids of those immigrants are commonly found excelling in math and related tasks. Meanwhile, most people look at their race / ethnicity first and assume that race / ethnicity is the basis for that.
However, if the advanced program is a scarce one subject to competitive admission, that may draw more parents to push their kids to try for it, since it becomes more of a status good as well as an academic good.
It does seem that the scarcity / competitive mindset is much more prevalent today than it was a few decades ago. Today, a parent of a kid in the highest honors course may worry if the kid is near the bottom of the class (B grade), even though merely being in the highest honors course indicates high achievement in both an absolute sense and a relative sense.
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This is a very good question. My S24 is very, very good in math (he is white). He participated in Math Olympiad in elementary school and scored in the top 5% with no prep, no âenrichmentâ or acceleration. He easily outperformed his peers who were enrolled in Russian math and other math programs. He stopped after 5th grade and has shown no interest in returning to any math contests. In school he excels in math with little effort â never studies, âjust understandsâ when he looks at problems . . . but has no interest. Says math is âboringâ. I donât understand it at all.
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Middle school and high school math might just not be interesting for him which is obviously fine. If there is a math circle nearby that meets sometimes, perhaps he would like that. You could also look into Math Kangaroo or the AMCs and see if they pique his interest.
DS blew everyone away in math when he was in elementary school and was not challenged so we found a math circle nearby and he quickly learned others knew much more; luckily there were great teachers/professors too. The combination of interesting (to him) lectures, like-minded kids, and his competitive spirit really got him into learning more about math. Definitely not for everyone though.
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