<p>But keep in mind the the number of newly LISCENSED attorneys is dictated by the State Boards of Law Examiners, the folks whom determine the pass rate of their respective state bar exams.</p>
<p>Okay so what do the lawyers on this thread suggest? DS has an undergrad degree in criminal justice. Currently working in client intake for a very large PI attorney in a large city with his thoughts towards law school down the road. Would he be better off in your opinion to be a paralegL and skip the additional schooling? He has no debt from undergrad. If he does the law school route it will likely be a regional school not a top tier. His undergrad has. Good reputation in it’s city and a decent alumni network.</p>
<p>To listen to the posters on this and similar threads, many of whom are lawyers, no one should become a lawyer nowadays - the field is glutted, there are no jobs to be had, and if one manages to get a job it’ll likely be low paying and insecure and require a lot of work in drudgery to even achieve that. It’s an awful lot of gloom and doom.</p>
<p>I hope the picture isn’t quite that bleak. I understand it may not be the heyday but I also think some students, certainly not all or perhaps most, will manage to find some jobs in law doing something they find of interest and that can be reasonably financially rewarding. I understand that simply having a law degree isn’t a ticket to a fantastic position and sure employment with a windfall of a salary but certainly there’ll still be ‘some’ new lawyers entering the business to reasonable positions and careers in the next few years.</p>
<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad, the problem is that unless one has a (rare) major scholarship or family wealth, law school requires six-figure loan debt. Even someone who comes in with zero undergraduate debt is still going to face big loan payments - now couple that with the folks who have borrowed $50-100,000 for their bachelor’s degree and you have a recipe for financial disaster.</p>
<p>Nobody is saying that nobody should go to law school. But anyone thinking about borrowing big bucks for a JD needs to know the facts.</p>
<p>I think I read somewhere that the number of law grads is 2x that of the number of New Associates hired every year. If correct, that is a staggering differential, which only compounds year after year. (And doesn’t even count the new law schools that continue to be opened.)</p>
<p>Add-in the fact that JD salaries are bimodal – huge curves at $160k and at $60k. Not too many in the $90-120k range. Obviously, it will be mighty difficult to pay off $200k in loans on a $60k salary.</p>
<p>ebeeee –</p>
<p>What does DS want to do with his career? Does he need a law degree to advance in whatever field he chooses? For some people, they can actually get their employer to help them out with their law school. Depending on the career track, however, law school might not be necessary. You don’t need a J.D. for even some high-level administrative positions in a law firm.</p>
<p>That is the 64 dollar question. I don’t know and he may not either. I am going to visit this summer and at least ask him but he is a self sufficient adult at this point and may not even take any advice I offer. I just wanted and idea of what others think the answer is to this glut of lawyers I keep hearing about.</p>
<p>My take on this is that students should only consider studying law if it is their passion… and they should go into it aware of all of the issues described above. It would be a bad idea pick law school based on high salary expectations.</p>
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<p>Whoa! Time out! $200K in debt? Where does that come from?</p>
<p>Latest figures I’ve seen say the average student at a public law school takes on about $71K in debt, and the average student at a private law school takes on $91K in debt. That’s a lot of debt, but it’s not $200K. For the average Yale Law School or Harvard Law School grad $91K in debt is probably a good bet. For the average Michigan Law School or Berkeley Law School or UCLA Law School or Texas Law School grad $71K is probably a good bet. For someone going to Western New England Law School or Toledo Law School, it’s probably not such a good bet.</p>
<p>My own D1, a rising sophomore at a top LAC, sometimes thinks about law school. My advice would be that whether it makes sense depends a whole lot on the law school you can get into, and where you can expect to be in the class there. If you can expect to be in the top half or top third of the class in a top 15, or maybe even top 25 or top 30 law school, and do so without taking on exorbitant debt, then it’s probably a good bet. If not, then it becomes dicier. How much dicier depends on the school, the local market, and where you stand in the class. But let’s be honest: that’s about the same advice I’d give regarding an undergrad institution. There seem to be a lot of posters here eager to bash all law schools and the entire idea of a legal education, but to my mind that’s just as short-sighted as blind faith that any law degree will put you on the path to riches. Both views are blind to the complicated realities of the field.</p>
<p>COA (tuition, living expenses, books, etc.) for Stanford and UC Berkeley’s law schools are $75K and $66K respectively ($74K for Boalt if you aren’t a CA resident). Times that by 3 years and you could get near $200K, even if you are in state.</p>
<p>Of course, with luck you can get some money working in the summers and perhaps some financial aid. But coming out of law school with a mountain of debt needs to really be examined carefully.</p>
<p>bclintonk, you’re forgetting that these loans are on top of what students have already borrowed for their bachelor’s degree.</p>
<p>Even if we take that average of $91,000 in debt and add it to $25,000 in debt, which is what you get from max Staffords throughout one’s undergraduate career, you’re already well into six-figure student debt. Not to mention all those Staffords have been sitting in deferment for three years, accruing interest.</p>
<p>Add $50,000 or more (even $100,000+!) in undergraduate debt, which many students unfortunately have, and… as I said, you have a recipe for financial disaster.</p>
<p>Sure, if you’ve gotten a full ride for undergrad and get a great scholarship for law school, you can make it without much debt. But don’t kid yourself into thinking that more than a tiny minority of college students fall into that box.</p>
<p>Agree with everyone who says it’s awful out there for law students. My kid’s law school is the top ranked school in a mid-sized city. The editor of my kid’s law review 2L class hasn’t found a summer job yet. My kid is working at an unpaid clerkship that he found by networking through contacts from his undergraduate internships. He’s very glad to have the clerkship, since so many of his fellow students are either unemployed or working as waiters/waitresses or in stores for the summer. </p>
<p>A 3-man firm posted a summer internship in the placement office at the end of April. My kid received a letter that said they received over 60 resumes for the position from law students. </p>
<p>I think every law student or recent graduate has these stories. </p>
<p>Anyone with a legal job? Please PM me. My kid will apply, with no expectations of anything close to six figures.</p>
<p>What about kids at top 5 law schools? What about people that don’t want to be lawyers? Isn’t a law degree pretty useful for lots of things?</p>
<p>What “lots of things” would it be useful for? A JD is a very specific professional degree designed to train future lawyers. If you wanted to go into legal journalism, politics, etc. it could be useful, but beyond that, it really is no more or less impressive on a resume than a master’s degree - and those can be earned far more cheaply, or sometimes entirely free.</p>
<p>I’ve posted over the years on the Law School forum. It’s been really interesting to my that so many people (both students and parents) are resistant to the reality that becoming a lawyer does not guarantee employability, a decent wage, or prestige. It doesn’t matter how many times the answers are posted, by numerous posters. Everyone wants to believe that either they or their kid will be the exception. Prospective law students or their parents say:</p>
<p>(1) if you go to a T14, you’re guaranteed a biglaw job or at least a well-paying job before you graduate (not true anymore - trust me, I get resumes from unemployed T14 grads); </p>
<p>(2) the economy is improving, and there will be jobs when I/my kid graduates (and in the meantime, there will be thousands more unemployed students hoping for those jobs); </p>
<p>(3) I have family members, neighbors or other connections that will guarantee a job, so I don’t have to worry about employability (hiring freezes, glut of applicants, glut of networking calls on behalf of friends or relatives, nepotism policies, etc. may come into play here - few sure things anymore); </p>
<p>(4) I will be at the top of my class in whatever school I go to, so I will be one of the few that will find a job (this is my personal favorite, since 90% of the people who think this is true end up in the bottom 90% of their class); </p>
<p>(5) I don’t care about money, so I’ll be perfectly happy with a public interest or government position (as if those positions were more readily available…not true anymore). An alternative is: I don’t want to be in a big market, and there are jobs in the heartland of America or small towns (also not true, since lawyers in those markets are typically small firms or sole practioners who don’t hire many associates); </p>
<p>(6) I’m a liberal arts major. I can’t find a job in my field anyway so becoming a lawyer at least gives me a chance of a good career (I acknowledge it gives you a chance of being unemployed in a different field along with crushing debt); </p>
<p>(7) My family wants me to be a professional, and I can’t get into med school (Any prestige associated with being a legal professional is diminishing as the glut expands. Everyone knows a lawyer or law student, has one in the family, or knows someone who has one in their family. It’s simple economics that fees and salaries are being driven down as the glut increases. And all you have to do is see the legal billboards, yellow pages, ads on tv, etc. to know that this is becoming a job, not a prestigious career.) </p>
<p>(8) I like to debate, and everyone tells me I should be a lawyer. Alternative, I’ve wanted to be a lawyer since I was a little kid. (I call this the Perry Mason Syndrome. Being a lawyer involves long hours of mind numbing work before you can get to moments of adrenaline filled negotiations, trials etc. It can take years to get a case to trial, if you’re a trial lawyer, or weeks to help a client close a deal - not the hour of prime time tv.)</p>
<p>(9) I want to be a corporate lawyer and make deals. (Ummm, lawyers are the folks who help the people who actually make the deals.) Or I’m going to use the law degree in another field (not usually a degree that is sought by employers for nonlegal positions, unless you’re willing to settle for work in a contracts or similar support field instead being in a legal department).</p>
<p>(10) Your own kid is in law school, so it can’t be that bad. (I tried talking him out of it. What can I say?)</p>
<p>We have two friends with their son/daughter in law school…one of them works for us in the summer as well as his parents ( who both lost their jobs in the past 3 yrs ) I don’t know how they do it after putting their kids thru pricey undergrad educations. I think if it were me , I’d put that plan on hold for now or dedirect the path rather than take on enormous student loan debt that will likely be difficult to pay back</p>
<p><a href=“9”>quote</a> I want to be a corporate lawyer and make deals. (Ummm, lawyers are the folks who help the people who actually make the deals.)
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<p>I’ve heard this one a lot in the past and your assessment is spot on–yet many prospective law students still think they’ll be wheeling and dealing. </p>
<p>The lawyers generally have nothing to do with ‘making deals.’ The lawyers fill out and proof the paperwork to close the deal after others have done the wheeling and dealing–frequently delaying the process and annoying both sides while they fight over single words in contracts.</p>
<p>It’s important work, but most corporate lawyers typically sit in a dark office pushing paper all day. Many still do it because it’s often well paid and usually a 9-5 job. Few would tell you they’re really passionate about the work though.</p>
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<p>No way. A law degree enables you to practice law. Period.</p>
<p>^ Post 37 - That’s so true (except for the dark office bit). A company I know employed a general counsel who was smart, effective, and all-around terrific to work with. But in a chat with the CEO, the CEO said, in a very dismissive voice, “oh, Fred? yeah, he’s the guy who tells me what I can’t do”.</p>
<p>We had a single entry level legal opening in the Office of the Attorney General this year. Paid $43k (plus state benefits). There were more than 250 applicants (includng some from each of the top 15). Job went to a BYU law student, I think.</p>