A warning to students planning on attending law school for the $$

<p>Law Firms are creating 2-Tiers Pay structures for associates-which pay 1/2 of what partner track associates are paid!!</p>

<p>"At Well-Paying Law Firms, a Low-Paid
Corner The nation’s biggest law firms are creating a second tier of workers, stripping pay and prestige from one of the most coveted jobs in the business world.</p>

<p>Make no mistake: These are full-fledged lawyers, not paralegals, and they do the same work traditional legal associates do. But they earn less than half the pay of their counterparts — usually around $60,000 — and they know from the outset they will never make partner."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/business/24lawyers.html?hp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/business/24lawyers.html?hp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>S1 has already seen this happening in his explorations of career moves and he is not looking at the Big Law firms. He has already talked to regional law firm(s?) planning to hire in this no-partner track. He is going into his last year and the landscape has changed drastically since he made the decision to go to law school and started the application process.</p>

<p>From what I am told, there is a glut of lawyers right now–lots finishing law school with no job offers.
I know of a young lady who went back to school to get a third degree after her JD (some specialty)…and she has many connections
yet still no job due to budget issues in the NY metro area…they keep telling her they will hire her…the question is when…</p>

<p>There were these jobs at some big name law firms back when I started 25 years ago. Not at the firm I worked at, but at another big time law firm in the same city that my friend worked at. Lawyers would work at these jobs for a couple of years, get good training and be able to put “Big Name Law Firm” on their resume–then would move on to their career job.</p>

<p>Looks like firms may be doing a lot more of this now.</p>

<p>That is an interesting article. At the Big Name Law Firm where I practiced twenty years ago, the same split happened, although not formally. Attorneys who chose to be on the B track and not bill 2,000 hours or more received only their base salary. Attorneys who billed well above 2,000 hours (and were presumably on partner track for the long term and more lucrative for the firm in the short term) got significant bonuses.</p>

<p>

If it’s any consolation, a lot of those traditional associates won’t make partner, either. This whole field has been changing in this direction for a long time. There weren’t enough partner slots for good associates to move up into them, and good associates were being forced out.</p>

<p>I would run away from the law school idea as fast as you can!</p>

<p>My niece got her law degree from a top school a few years ago. She sat for the bar and passed in Wisconsin and could not find a job. So she moved to Chicago, sat for the Illlinois bar, passed and could not find a job. Moved back home to Michigan, sat for the bar, passed and still can not find a job. She is in debt over $100,000. A very scary story. Run away!!!</p>

<p>I don’t think this is entirely a bad thing where it’s elected by the associate. There ought to be a place in law firm practice for people who want to do excellent work, but don’t have the skills/inclination to bring in business.</p>

<p>I’ll offer a different perspective. DD was interested in either Medical School or protecting the environment. Med School was out of the question due to both political and economic considerations. But scientific input to environmental policy is essentially zero … so forget the Ph.D. (I forget … who was it that said “I don’t trust the science?”) In the end she chose Law School, with the expectation of going into Environmental Law. She’ll have $100K in student debt when she finishes. Is that good? Obviously not. But it’s a lot better than the $400,000 in debt she’d have had exiting Medical School into an uncertain environment.</p>

<p>I agree that finding a “Big Law” career is going to be a challenge for new graduates. But as a regular consumer of law services, I’ve got to say that finding a lawyer to handle family and small business issues is definitely a struggle … even at $275/hour.</p>

<p>This was once called the “mommy track” for those women who wanted a home life and time with the kids. I have a friend who did make partner, was featured in the WSJ some years ago as the woman who had it all, husband, kids, partnership, and she was burning out even as the article was published. She worked out an arrangement where she did not have to put in the time, have the revenues, etc, but still works there. Much of her work is at home these days, and she is very happy with the arrangement. She gave up a prestigious and potentially very lucrative partnership for this. Now that her youngest is going to high school and in a few years she’ll have 2 in college, she is thinking about going back full time, but she will never be a partner there unless things really change. </p>

<p>Another woman I know at a top law firm is pregnant and is on the partnership track making huge bucks and is seriously considering this route. Problem is that even with her $200K pay, with student loans and the cost of a baby, a place to live not far from work–with her hours an important priority, taking that kind of pay cut is going to be problematic. But at least she has the choice. Many are not.</p>

<p>My neighbor cut loose from his law firm some years ago when he did not make partner and gave it another try at another firm where he succeeded. He said the monetary difference is astronomical and in his case he did this when they had twins, and his wife wanted to stay home with them.</p>

<p>Actually, I think law is just arriving where other intellectual professions have been for several years. In 2000 I recall reading that the country was short a million and a half computing professionals … chip design, software engineers, etc. Three years later we had a 500K surplus … with much of the work outsourced to places like Russia and India. And there have been several CC threads discussing the demise of tenure-track positions in colleges and universities.</p>

<p>I often wonder if the easy-to-get grad school loans (courtesy of the feds) has created a JD bubble, which is now showing signs of bursting?</p>

<p>Be very wary of embarking on a law career at this time. My husband and I are both lawyers (although I work in a different field at this time) and the climate has definitely changed since we went to law school 20 years ago. You might want to look at this NYT article from January <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html&lt;/a&gt;. Our daughter started at a second tier law school when her pre-graduation job offer was rescinded after the bottom fell out of the market in 2009. After a semester she dropped out for a variety of reasons and soon found a job in NYC like she originally planned. Her classmates who are now finishing their 2L year are scurrying around for jobs. Most private law firms have drastically reduced their internship spots for 2Ls to less than a quarter of the number of interns pre-2008. A friend’s daughter who works at a large firm in Minneapolis said the spots for interns last summer were 14 versus the 45 that they hired in her 2L summer. These internships were normally the path to a future job offer. If your son or daughter plans to attend any of the 2-3 tier law schools, they will need to be top 10% of the class to get offers from private firms, or plan to work for the DAs office in a rural district of the state.</p>

<p>I tell this to my friends whose kids are considering law school and they all assume the economy will get better in a few years. That may be true, but like the reference to the new tiered law firm structure that started this thread, I think that the way law is practiced currently and into the future is undergoing a drastic change and instead of a temporary condition, this will become the new normal.</p>

<p>Many of these non-partner track associate positions are in huge wealthy firms. They pay poorly (relatively speaking) and offer no benefits. They hire them as contractors. Thats slimy, IMO.</p>

<p>The reality is that the economics of law practice have changed (although not as dramatically as the economics of medical practice). It never made much sense to pay first year associates those dramatically high salaries (even the smartest of them don’t know very much) but it worked as long as there were clients willing to pay high hourly rates for kids with very little knowledge or experience (but lots of potential). Those days are largely gone.</p>

<p>Agree that it is hard to justify those ridiculously high starting salaries. But to bring them on essentially fulltime with no benefits? Are they considered independent contractors? If so, doesn’t this violate the tax rules about it? Can someone clarify how the are paid?</p>

<p>I don’t know, I think this is just an overdue market correction, and perhaps a tacit admission that the Big Law business model is broken and needs to be reinvented. For years the biggest law firms made money hand over fist by billing their clients outrageous sums, charging them for the hours put into the project rather than for the product itself. The partners in those firms also made fabulous money, in part because their own billable rate was so high, but mainly because although they paid their associates handsome sums, they charged their clients even more than they paid for the associates’ time. To keep the firm’s profits and the partners’ income up required a highly “leveraged” structure: few partners, lots of associates, meaning relatively few associates could ever make partner, and the rest were up or out after 7 years or so, replaced by each year’s newly minted crop of fresh associate recruits out of the nation’s top law schools. Associate salaries kept rising, though, because the firms were competing for the top talent coming out of the top law schools each year. And so did the amount the Big Law firms billed their clients.</p>

<p>In the current economy, clients have become far more resistant to the high cost of legal services. The price spiral of associate salaries has ended, though as the article explains, no firm wants to be the first to actually cut associate salaries for fear of losing top talent or being perceived as a second-tier firm. But hiring of “partner-track” associates has slowed, some more senior associates have been laid off, even some partners have been dumped, while others broke off to form their own firms and took their business with them rather than share it with less lucrative partners at their old firms. Clients are bargaining for lower rates, or for product pricing rather than paying billable hours; others are doing more legal work in-house, or taking some of their business to perfectly competent but less prestigious and less costly mid-market firms. So Big Law needs to do something to get back in the game. For some firms creating a second tier of low-cost, back-office, non-partner-track associates in low-cost locations is simply a cost-cutting move that will allow them to offer their clients a lower total price (while still, they hope, maintaining the firm’s profits and the partners’ incomes). There are plenty of eager young lawyers coming out of the law schools—even very good law schools–to snap up those jobs, and some may even prefer not to be under the pressure to rack up extreme billable hours that partner-track associates face. But if it works, it will mean more work going to these back-office operations, and less need for high-priced partner-track associates in the future.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, at the bottom end of the market there are thousands of newly minted J.D.s pouring out of second, third, and fourth-tier law schools for whom there simply are no jobs. But then, these schools never got many of their grads into Big Law jobs anyway. What’s dried up here is entry-level prosecutor jobs, other public sector jobs, legal aid work, and the like.</p>

<p>My impression, though, is that at some of the mid-level law firms things may not be so bad. They were never as pricey as the Big Law firms, and their partners never expected as big profits; nor were they as highly leveraged, nor did they pay as high associate salaries, nor did they push their associates so hard for billable hours. Consequently they haven’t priced themselves out of the market, and some cost-conscious clients may be more willing to consider them now, questioning whether the premium charged by Big Law firms is justified by any incremental difference in quality.</p>

<p>The profession is undergoing a massive market correction where customers, namely businesses, are re-evaluating the true value of legal services. That, combined with a massive oversupply of lawyers in the US, has sent the legal industry into a tailspin. </p>

<p>Initially things were blamed on the downturn, but it’s now clear it’s much more fundamental than that… the downturn was just the trigger that caused people to say “wait a minute, why are we paying so much for this stuff?”</p>

<p>It’s taken another 20 years for this latest market correction. As others noted, non-partner track positions at big firms made news in the early 1990s. I’m not surprised because as everyone knows, the clients are ever more cost concious. In New York, the starting salaries have always been ridiculous and the lifestyle horrible for newly minted associates. And I’ve known lawyers from highly capable Pacific Northwest firms whose expertise and expenses were attractive to businesses whom were open to abandoning Los Angeles law firms. NY law firms still have the advantage in the world of finance, but the legal world continues to shrink.</p>

<p>The problem is that there are far too many lawyers in the U.S. and far too many law schools. With no controls on how many new lawyers are produced each year, the situation isn’t likely to change anytime soon. All you need to do is have a look at the law school forum here on CC to realize that there will be thousands and thousands of applicants each and every year, many if not most of whom should be looking at other options.</p>