<p>AP classes don’t count in your AMCAS GPA, but any co-enrollment CC classes taken during high school do.</p>
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Not even the 100 units of mech-e courses I’ll be taking? :p</p>
<p>DS can take a lit and fine arts course this summer at our local cc (university core requirements) to free up a few spots for other classes he may be interested during the next 4 years. Good idea? Bad idea? WOWMom, is your “OK” in the above post a “sure, go ahead, it won’t cause a future problems?” He will be working and doing a bit more shadowing or volunteering. But looking at his course schedule, a cc class or two might help.</p>
<p>Correct me if I’m wrong, but AP credit does not count towards your GPA.</p>
<p>Some colleges do give you credit on your college transcript for the AP exams based on the score if you submitted your scores for credit.</p>
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<p>If he has nothing better to do, then sure, why not. Not trying to be snarky, but summer are better spent pursuing research, volunteering, ECs, shadowing, working for real money – even retail, etc., than taking more classes.</p>
<p>bluebayou, thanks for your response. And no, I didn’t take it as snarky. DS is just considering options. He will be working for money this summer and is working on lining up some more shadowing/volunteering. As he is not certain of major yet, it would be nice to have some wiggle room for exploration. He has a research class that will take a 3-4 hour credit spot each semester and wants to continue his Spanish. Those two classes along with the pre-med requirements eat up a lot of course schedule real estate. He/We are new to this game and are trying to avoid rookie mistakes. I do appreciate the wealth of information found here. Thank you.</p>
<p>while perhaps too late for this summer, you might look to see if your college has a summer study abroad where he can continue his Spanish.</p>
<p>St. Louis University has an excellent program in Madrid, for example. (A friend’s kid at Stanford attended SLU-Madrid because it was the only program in which she could obtain approval for the Spanish classes. I can’t remember if she was a double major, or Span minor.)</p>
<p>I agree with bluebayou that summers can (and in my opinion should) be used for things other than classes. He has 9 months out of the year to take classes–I think it’s wise to do other things during the summer.</p>
<p>Study abroad. Get a job. Spend the summer in your college town. Relax. Shadow. Volunteer. Do research. There are plenty of things that will nicely complement his med school app other than school (not saying he just wants to take classes to boost his app). </p>
<p>If he’s looking for a major, you might keep in mind that the premed stuff meets major requirements for many majors (at least at my school!). You might not be able to “use” premed preqs for like, business school credit, but they almost always go toward a major in the college of arts and science. That may be a good place for him to start the major search!</p>
<p>And if I were in his shoes, wanting to explore my academic options or whatever, I think I’d rather add an intro (to whatever) class to my fall courseload than spend my summer in school. But, maybe that’s just me.</p>
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<p>Actually, I doubt that the adcoms would know that summer prereq classes may not have the same grading scale & competition as their regular-term counterparts, or even if the adcoms did know, whether they would care. After all, as has been discussed numerous times on this board, med-school adcoms care little for the overall difficulty of your major. If you’re an engineering student who undertakes a harsh course load and your GPA therefore suffers, med-school adcoms won’t care. All they’ll see is that you have a low GPA. </p>
<p>You would think that practically everybody in the world would know that engineering (along with other STEM majors such as physics) is usually the among most difficult majors at any school. But med-school adcoms deliberately choose not to know or care. From a strategic admissions standpoint, it is therefore better not to even take a difficult course at all, then to take it and receive a mediocre grade. Sad but true. </p>
<p>Given that adcoms deliberately refuse to care about the difficulty amongst various majors, which would seem to be a no-brainer, why would they then choose to care about the differences of grading scales of the same course that just happens to be taught over the summer? </p>
<p>Indeed, I would actually argue that the opposite strategy might be optimal - it is precisely during the summer when you should take as many premed prereqs as possible, precisely in order to avoid the standard level of competition during the regular term.</p>
<p>@sakky,
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<p>I think the argument against summer classes that you addressed was the weakest. The strongest argument against summer classes is that there are so many better things to be doing over the summer than attending class. And there are so many things a pre-med should be doing.</p>
<p>I agree with you Plumazul.</p>
<p>And Sakky, I think part of the flaw in your reasoning is that you’re assuming all the premed prereq classes are just hoops to jump through and GPA points to be won. I think you’re forgetting that the end goal–med school–is going to be much harder than anything you did in undergrad, and a big part of convincing adcoms that you’re fit for their med school is to prove to them that you’re academically capable of not only running with the big dogs and acing your classes, but also that you’re familiar with intense competition and able to manage a rigorous courseload. (You’ll find all of these in med school.) Avoiding competition by taking critical prereqs during the summer is not going to help you accomplish this important task, and may even harm you. </p>
<p>Something you also may not realize is that challenging classes are not only good preparation for med school, but also a fantastic way to get to know professors who can write great recommendation letters for you–another important aspect of your application. If you can win over a notoriously challenging professor who will be able to confidently say that you can compete with the best of them (and that he’s seen the best of them), you’re certainly on the right track. </p>
<p>I hope you’re not this cynical about your (or your kid’s) education in general–if med school’s realistically in your (or your kid’s) future, you’re in for quite a rude awakening if one of your major drivers for education is to take the easiest route (as evidenced by your attitudes toward STEM majors and prereqs). My advice to you would be to try to look at your (or your child’s) education as a great experience in and of itself rather than “just” a means to an ends (med school). I bet you’ll enjoy it a lot more with a new outlook.</p>
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If my memory serves me well, I think sakky is too old to be motivated to take the med school route himself, but is too young to have any kid who is old enough to think about med schools :)</p>
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<p>Not sure which posts you have been reading sakky but there are numerous ones that do indicate that major is a factor (but perhaps not in the way that you think). Vocational majors are generally frowned upon, while traditional liberal arts majors are favored. Within liberal arts, there is no difference. (Engineering maybe disfavored, not for rigor/gpa, but for other reasons – just speculating.)</p>
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<p>Any many others might argue the same thing, but Med School advisors, who are responsible for the Committee recs, discourage taking summer prereqs. This is akin to high school rigor, when one needs to obtain the “most rigorous” check box for undergrad applications; if one wants the highest Committee recommendation for professional school, one should follow the Committee’s course recommendations. A couple of extra A’s instead of B’s is not going to move the overall gpa by much, but rigor (aka summer courses) may come into play when comparing similar gpa’s.</p>
<p>Lizzie, an adcom says it does come into play. Take the anonymous posts for what they are worth.</p>
<p>Med admissions is unlike law school, which is 95% numbers (gpa+lsat). For med, the numbers just get one an interview.</p>
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<p>Actually, I don’t know about that. Regarding the things you and others have argued that a premed should be doing over the summer, I might argue that those activities might well actually be better accomplished during a regular fall/spring by simply withdrawing from college during that term and instead shifting courses towards the summer. After all, the problem with pursuing activities that might bolster your premed credentials during the summer - whether it be working, shadowing, volunteering, or whatnot is that there are far too many other college students doing the same exact thing, thereby lessening your chances of deriving a meaningful experience. For example, every summer, armies of premeds decide that the summer is a terrific time to volunteer at a local clinic, the result often times being that not everybody obtains a slot, or has a solid experience if they do get a lot. But being an ‘off-cycle’ volunteer during the fall or winter means that there is far less competition. </p>
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<p>I’m afraid that I must diametrically disagree: far and away, the hardest hurdle of med-school is simply getting in. Once you’re in, while the lifestyle is certainly not easy, you’re not going to flunk out. You might drop out, you might not obtain strong grades or evals, but practically nobody actually flunks out of med school. But undergrad is entirely different, particularly when talking about a difficult major such as engineering. Flunking out is a serious danger suffered by a not insignificant percentage of your classmates. </p>
<p>But if you still disagree, then ask yourself - why don’t med-schools admit more engineering students? After all, who knows more about, as you say, ‘running with the big dogs’ than the engineering students who survived 4 years of endless workloads under savagely rigorous conditions, particularly in their weeders? Yet as far as I can tell, med-school adcoms provide little compensation for the difficulty of the engineering curricula. If you’re a premed engineer with subpar grades (relative to the other premeds), adcoms won’t care why. They’ll just see that you have subpar grades. </p>
<p>Or consider another datapoint. I think nobody would dispute the rigor and intensity of the coursework at MIT. Nobody would dispute that attending MIT means that you’re “running with the big dogs”. Yet the data indicates MIT premeds basically need the same GPA as do the premeds of other schools. Med-school adcoms seem to provide no GPA-compensation for the fact that you studied at arguably the most famous technical school in the world. If you have a relatively low GPA from MIT, adcoms don’t care why. All they’ll see is that you have a low GPA. </p>
<p><a href=“http://gecd.mit.edu/sites/default/files/premeddata.pdf[/url]”>http://gecd.mit.edu/sites/default/files/premeddata.pdf</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://gecd.mit.edu/sites/default/files/'08-'11acceptancesbyschool.pdf[/url]”>http://gecd.mit.edu/sites/default/files/'08-'11acceptancesbyschool.pdf</a></p>
<p>Lest you think MIT is an outlier, then let’s consider another school: UC Berkeley, one of the highest ranked and rigorous schools in the world. I would similarly argue that Berkeley is a ‘big dog’ school with indisputably intense competition. Yet again, I see no evidence that med-school adcoms provide any sort of GPA-compensation for the rigor of Berkeley. </p>
<p><a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/medstats/2010seniors.stm[/url]”>https://career.berkeley.edu/medstats/2010seniors.stm</a>
<a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/medstats/2010oneyearout.stm[/url]”>https://career.berkeley.edu/medstats/2010oneyearout.stm</a>
<a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/medstats/top20.stm[/url]”>https://career.berkeley.edu/medstats/top20.stm</a></p>
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<p>I actually realize that fact quite well. I also readily agree that if you can garner top grades in difficult courses, you should obviously do that.</p>
<p>But not everybody is going to be able to do that, and that’s precisely the problem. Sure, if you can win over that notoriously challenging professor who will then write you a strong rec, than I don’t dispute that your application will be enhanced. But what if you can’t? Indeed, what if you receive a terrible grade and a terrible rec from that prof? Frankly, you would have been far better off not having taken that class at all. </p>
<p>The sad truth is that the med-school admissions process is a GPA risk-avoidance strategy. A terrible grade - read: C or worse - will gravely mar your application. And there are plenty of students at MIT and Berkeley - especially the engineering students - who receive C’s or worse. </p>
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<p>Frankly, if anything is cynical, it’s the adcoms that are cynical by simply refusing to properly compensate premeds who complete difficult majors at rigorous schools. And while I too want to be optimistic that students should enjoy their college years as a positive experience, the premed experience sadly demonstrates otherwise. After all, the national statistics show that over half of all premeds who apply to med-school are rejected from every single med-school that they apply to. Yes, every single one. And that’s counting solely those premeds who actually apply to med-school. Many don’t even make it that far. {Let’s face it, if you have low premed grades and a terrible MCAT, you’re probably not even going to apply.} Yet the fact that of those students who did complete the entire premed process: completing the prereqs, taking the MCAT, obtaining rec letters, filling out the AMCAS process, even after all that, most of them nevertheless will not be admitted anywhere points to a monumental deadweight loss to society. Of course the med-schools don’t care because they bear none of that cost. The rejected students must bear that cost. </p>
<p>{Now, granted some of those rejected students might be admitted by reapplying in later years after strengthening their applications. But that only serves to reduce, not eliminate the societal deadweight loss.} </p>
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<p>Sure, the adcoms may indeed ‘discourage’ taking summer courses or any courses that may be less rigorous. But what they really discourage above all are bad grades. Again, it is far far better to get a top grade in a creampuff course than to get a terrible grade in a rigorous course. Sad but true. </p>
<p>But don’t take my word for it. Carefully consider [Myths</a> #10 & #11](<a href=“http://www.questscholars.org/oldstuff/activities/professional/pre-med_letter/premed-letter-2001-2-pdf.pdf]Myths”>http://www.questscholars.org/oldstuff/activities/professional/pre-med_letter/premed-letter-2001-2-pdf.pdf) from Michael McCollough, former premed advisor at Stanford, Rhodes Scholar, and founder of the Quest Scholars program.</p>
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Agreed.</p>
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But this? Waaah. Waah.</p>
<p>Whatever course of study you embark on as a pre-med, be sure you can make good grades. That is, if med school is your goal.</p>
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<p>Well duh! So if you knew with certainty that you would work your butt off in organic and receive a C in the fall, then yes, it is better to take it in the summer and earn an A. But then you are competing with students who did take in fall and received an A. If you knew with certainty that you would receive a C at Cal, then you should go to community college or the Univ of Phoenix instead.</p>
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<p>No problem there, since you are not an adcom. (And neither am I.0</p>
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<p>Well sure, for hooked candidates. Most applicants are not hooked.</p>
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<p>Great life stories for Quest Scholars. Adcoms will bend over backwards for such students, including UCSF.</p>
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<p>Then riddle me this: why does the one of the largest premed majors at Cal have Stanford-level gpa’s: MCB has a mean of ~3.4, which is staggeringly high for a STEM major at a public.</p>
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<p>My interpretation of the data is just the opposite. MIT grads need a HIGHER mean gpa than graduates of other colleges. (IMO, med schools don’t like engineering types.)</p>
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I would agree there may be some truth in this, mostly due to the vocational nature of any engineering major.</p>
<p>This reminds me of a post an SDNer made many years ago. He was an engineering student and took many “applied physics/math” style classes, and many “design” classes in his senior years. As such, he took relatively fewer bio or biochem classes. He said when he was interviewed at some research-oriented med school, one of the interviewers (who is a PI of course as most professors are at such a publish-or-bust med school) grilled him about his lack of solid foundation in the molecular biology and biochem and was very suspicious about whether he could really perform at such a research med school.</p>
<p>BTW, it is rumored that, if an interviewer talked most about himself and his research and asked less about the qualification of an interviewee, it might be the case that this interview session also serves as a recruiting event for his research group. Some interviewer may actually do something like this. (This may actually be a good sign as some of these interviewers may have some sense whether an applicant might get in or not. He would not be eagerly selling his research group to an applicant if he thinks this applicant has little chance to get in.)</p>
<p>It is interesting to see three “2004 CCers” posted next to each other 
It makes me feel like going back to the time when DS was still a high schooler. I am definitely not in that league.</p>
<p>Sakky, you make good points. Thanks for taking the time to reply.</p>
<p>I might be reading too far into this, but it seems like you’re frustrated that med school admit rates are so low that <50% of the people who apply get in. What do you think a more acceptable admit rate would be? After all, I’m sure not everyone who applies is cut out to be a med student (read: future physician). As a recent applicant, I can tell you plenty of stories about great kids who were not accepted–but I can tell you even more stories of kids who totally sucked who didn’t get accepted.</p>
<p>I personally think a better gauge for acceptance is the AAMC’s GPA/MCAT table. Sure, the overall results are that <50% are accepted, but if you look at how that breaks down by scores and grades, the results are quite different. I believe my set of credentials (30/3.8) put me at right around 80% chance of acceptance, and I believe exactly 80% of my friends with stats close to mine were accepted somewhere. </p>
<p>Just wondering what you think an acceptable alternative to the 50% notion would be. I know you’re not an adcom and I know no one here is, but nonetheless I think it would be interesting to hear what you have to write on the topic.</p>
<p>There is a huge difference between not granting people slack for taking hard, irrelevant courses and penalizing people for taking the easy way out on required courses. This is why engineering doesn’t get a bump but taking orgo over the summer is bad.</p>