<p>Hmmm. What was that quote? Oh yes, I said "...the atrocious attrition rate...AT SOME ELITE COLLEGES." But then, one Learned Hand in this thread rejects the proposition but in the same breath states "...there is no atrocious attrition rate...save for Middlebury, Carleton and the U of Michigan."</p>
<p>Oh, the agony of inconsistency!</p>
<p>[Madville, has your son already considered Bowdoin, and rejected it? I would suggest he look seriously at Bowdoin, too, as they are also looking to increase their minority representation. Colby also.
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<p>No he hasn't but it won't hurt to look seeing that several have stated it might be a school for S to consider. Sept 28th and he's tiring of the process already. I could understand the weariness better if he had a "bird" already in hand! lol!</p>
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Apparently the most important factor in students' graduating is generosity of need-based financial aid, something that is most likely to exist at the top colleges.
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<p>Definitely, part of my rationale in examining matriculation and grad rates of AA at the top 60 Uni's and colleges. It was in part, the correlation that I was referring to in post #34. High matriculation rates signaled either all the bright & affluent AA were going to the same schools and needed little FA or that there is a correlation between generous FA and hefty graduation rates. Less concerns about affordability may translate into more energy focusing on academics, etc. I certainly hope so in my S case.</p>
<p>LW...Instead of generalities, I'd be curious to know which top private schools have atrocious rates of retention for black students.</p>
<p>madville--congrats to your son! That will be an ego booster!</p>
<p>Madville:</p>
<p>Congrats to your son. Middlebury and Bates are great schools. And Bowdoin, too. Poetsheart is right that Bowdoin is trying to increase its URM intake. We visited with S1 in 1999 and liked it a lot. Its location is better than Bates.</p>
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LW...Instead of generalities, I'd be curious to know which top private schools have atrocious rates of retention for black students.
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<p>While I wouldn't use the term atrocious, but here is a link listing AA grad rates at top schools. Some of the listings are in comparison to white students at the same institutions. I have used information like this to try to gauge what the general probability of success for my S would be. </p>
<p>link;<a href="http://www.jbhe.com/preview/winter07preview.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jbhe.com/preview/winter07preview.html</a></p>
<p>I try to use info like this as well as the information presented on this forum to try to help my S make an informed decision on where he might be happiest and most likely to thrive. Although he would prefer to be warmer maybe, he really is looking forward to immersing himself into learning about these foreign cultures and languages. That's why the great reps of the more "culturally" isolated schools in the northern regions hasn't deterred him. Thanks for all the positive and constructive feedback thus far.</p>
<p>When looking at the graduation rates in the top schools listed on the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education site that you linked to, I think it's important consider that there's a good chance that the students who didn't graduate transferred. I suspect that's not the case with schools that are much lower ranked, where students of all races may be more likely to permanently drop out of college.</p>
<p>I know when I went to Harvard, not only did very few students of any race fail to graduate within 6 years (the same is true now), but the few that I know who didn't either eventually finished Harvard or transferred elsewhere (often for reasons that seemed unwise such as a student who transferred to, I think, University of Hawaii to be with her fiancee).</p>
<p>We also had some students who had transferred to Harvard. The ones whom I met came from top ranked schools, so if one were only looking at those schools' graduation stats, one might have assumed that the students had dropped out when meanwhile they had transferred to a higher ranked college.</p>
<p>"Several of the schools under consideration are Middlebury, Bates, Macalester, Amherst, and Wisconsin. I will say that his scores/GPA would put him in at the very least, the 50th percentile for all incoming students at these schools as well."</p>
<p>It's a non-issue. He can go anywhere he wants, and the schools will drool to have him. Consider that of the top 100-200 AA males in the country, not anywhere near half of them even apply to "top" colleges and universities. </p>
<p>I will pay you a dollar for every Ivy, every top 25 uni, and every top 25 LAC he doesn't get into. </p>
<p>As for the departments, make sure they are large enough. Some of the LACs, even the most prestigious ones, are very, very limited in electives and upper level classes.</p>
<p>Thanks, Mini, you know a lot about statistics and admission priorities. I think someone had to just dole out some hearty encouragement here for AA males to apply. </p>
<p>Just asking, in your experience (I know you know Williams very well), do you think it's especially helpful to have the warmth of LAC's in the first two years for the adjustment, even if it means giving up some range in course selection in the final two years? You know I'm a big fan of the LAC experience because a student can just walk up to an administrator (in housing, finance, whatever) and have a conversation. So many problems are solved this way. My kids never got lost in the cracks, ignored, or felt like a stranger at their LAC's. When I read about the culture shock issues for minority students from poverty backgrounds, to me it seems like the LAC might be better than the university, at least at the beginning.... what think you?</p>
<p>Thanks for that link, mad. Such interesting information. Clearly some schools (WUSTL) are putting major effort into retention. My older son has seen his AfAm mates drop out. </p>
<p>Anyone know the history of JHBE? What a great resource. I wonder who started it.</p>
<p>Thanks to mini for stopping in with his stats--and another assurance boost for mad's son. MadSon's is going to be a fun app process to watch!</p>
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As for the departments, make sure they are large enough. Some of the LACs, even the most prestigious ones, are very, very limited in electives and upper level classes.
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<p>Here's another area where my lack of a college background hurts in helping my son find an optimum situation. Could you be more specific in addressing the significance in having broader elective choices and upper level classes and what should he be looking for when looking at a particular schools academic offerings?
Thanks.</p>
<p>I'd love to know the history of the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, the best resource for statistics on the subject of blacks and higher education. Incidentally, the editor, Theodore Cross is white.</p>
<p>Your son should be able to help you research these departments. Every university lists every class online--on their website.</p>
<p>Pull up a couple of those courselists by 'major', print them out and compare them. Your son should see many 300, 400, 500 level courses that he can't wait to take. You'll be surprised at the difference in offerings. </p>
<p>One often-offered CC tip is to keep in mind that your son is not chosing a university for freshman year--as much as he is choosing a univeristy to engage him in junior and senior year, when he is ready to inhale the opportunities at hand. Freshman year experiences are quite similar--the rush of independent living, learning and socializing. It's the following years that really determine the 'fit'--says me anyway ;).</p>
<p>Are you also following concerenedclaude's thread? He is a AfAm father (?) who graduated from a HBC and has a star student applying this year. You might find his journey interesting--and it might be fun to share queries.</p>
<p>"I'd love to know the history of the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, the best resource for statistics on the subject of blacks and higher education. Incidentally, the editor, Theodore Cross is white."</p>
<p>I've always wondered about that too, Northstar...</p>
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One often-offered CC tip is to keep in mind that your son is not chosing a university for freshman year--as much as he is choosing a univeristy to engage him in junior and senior year, when he is ready to inhale the opportunities at hand. Freshman year experiences are quite similar--the rush of independent living, learning and socializing. It's the following years that really determine the 'fit'--says me anyway .
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<p>Hi, Cheers, I completely get your point above, but want to offer the opposite one:</p>
<p>When a student goes to college at age 17 or 18, some will thrive only with some close attention, mentoring, and personal interest. Some learn better when in a classroom of 25 students, not 250, for their foundation courses.</p>
<p>I had to ask my S, trying to figure out whether he wanted an LAC or large university environment, "Which way do you imagine you'd thrive and learn best? Continuous question-answer with the professor, Socratic method start-to-finish? Or would you welcome being in a large hall with a brilliant professor at the front of the room; take notes (little time for questions), save the questions for your break-out seminar with a graduate student leader a few days later?
I even upped the stakes, asking, suppose the prof at the front of the big room is Alan Dershowitz (his favorite guy, the Harvard professor and lawyer often on TV as a news analyst)?
He said he felt most engaged if every class could be small and seminar style, right from the beginning. He also wanted to be able to know people as he walked around the campus, longing for a "family feel."
So for him, LAC was the "right fit."
When he got to junior and senior year, he did find enough delicious courses, but also arranged many private readings based upon the academic relationships developed around sophomore and junior year with professors.
So that's my case for the LAC, although Cheers' case for an undergraduate experience at a big university is compelling. </p>
<p>Different kids. You need to know yours. He might have a glimmer from high school which kind of learning environment excites him, and project that forward. </p>
<p>There are other issues than academic; my kids all wanted to grow in certain emotional and humane ways. They speak about "building community" in their lives, and wanted to have a smaller group of friends to choose among and maintain. They didn't want to tangle with a big bureaucracy over such issues as housing, and be a number (their term, I'm not sure it's fair). We have a tight family here at home, and a close tribe of extended relatives, and house of worship...all are part of who they are. So maybe that was a big part of it for them, wanting to replicate that "family feel" at an LAC, as emotional support so they'd feel free to soar and learn, which they surely did.</p>
<p>They didn't get the big menu of majors or courses, that is true.</p>
<p>Sorry...used the word 'university' and could have easily used the term 'LAC'. Selling uni over LAC wasn't my point.</p>
<p>I still believe that, irregardless of class size or uni/LAC size, the heart of the residential freshman experience is similar across the board. It isn't difficult to find a good fit for freshman year. It's harder to find good fits for junior and senior year--esp if a student didn't verify the offerings ahead of time.</p>
<p>Even in an LAC, students should look at the upper level course offerings in their fields of interest. Those offerings should set their hearts fluttering. </p>
<p>*Personal aside: my father was an official Big 10 BMOC, president of his fraternity and the fraternity council. Our perspective on finding family in large settings in probably skewed, LOL.</p>
<p>Hey, now cheers, that was an illuminating exchange! Hope it helps the OP a bit.</p>
<p>"Coincidentally, he is considering several schools that happen to offer both, his projected major(s) East Asian studies, Japanese, Arabic and an emphasis in recruiting minorities."</p>
<p>"Could you be more specific in addressing the significance in having broader elective choices and upper level classes and what should he be looking for when looking at a particular schools academic offerings?"</p>
<p>I attended a LAC, and my older d. is at one. We received great educations there. My younger one is looking at schools with international business, accounting, and Arabic. There isn't a LAC in the country that meets her needs. You need to focus on what your own kid's needs are. </p>
<p>LACs are wonderful. But if you look at the Arabic programs at virtually ANY of them (and it most cases, the Japanese and East Asian offerings as well), they pale in comparison to those at a first rate state university with a history in those areas.</p>
<p>I have known folks teaching in the East Asian and South Asian Studies departments at Wisconsin for almost 30 years. Quite frankly, in comparison, Williams looks like high school, and not many of the LACs are much better. The honors program (if there is one) at Wisconsin, would be a far superior choice, providing the academic support and community and welcome mat, with a series of course offerings and options to die for. </p>
<p>What about Harvard? I'm usually not a big fan unless one is looking into one of their smaller departments, but that's precisely what he's looking at. East Asian studies at Harvard has to be among the top 5 in the country, and of course they have Arabic as well. (And virtually no one ever drops out.) Or Cornell? Or Georgetown or George Washington? </p>
<p>Your son's situation is rather special. He might get less support or mentoring at a place like this, as opposed to a good LAC, if he was looking to major in political science or economics. But he might find the best of all worlds in these areas. Marite's son is an example of how that works. She had one son at Wesleyan, where he got an excellent education, but the other one really needed advanced and deep offerings in mathematics, and Harvard has more than been able to provide them. I suspect she'd say that Wisconsin would have been able to as well. But not Wesleyan, or Bates, or Williams or wherever.</p>
<p>A welcoming place is fine, but if academic interests are strong, more important, in my opinion, is a place that you can grow into, rather than outgrow.</p>
<p>Great advice all! As well as he has done, he has yet to really tap into, I believe, his potential. He is so laid back. Too laid back if you ask me! He is looking at Wisky's and OSU honors programs due to the depth of course offerings. After reading your posts, he's setting his sights higher. I'm hoping whichever school he decides to attend, he would find the combination of inspirational faculty, great friendships, endearing experiences and a curriculum that will stoke his passion for foreign peoples and cultures.</p>
<p>Not too much to expect, eh?</p>
<p>Madville:</p>
<p>I would not say that he needs to set his sights "higher" than Wisc (I know less about OSU). It is a great school. Mini gave a good summary of the choices my two sons faced. They are very very different personalities and have different interests. Both preferred smaller schools, but S2 found that he needed access to graduate classes. Wisc could have easily fitted his bill in that regard (it has a great math department), but it was too big a setting. It was not a question of quality. The same applied to Berkeley and the University of Michigan. </p>
<p>Regarding East Asian Studies, Harvard has the most extensive program, including faculty across several departments, the best collection of works in Chinese and Japanese (it has one of the world's four Meiji collections which contain verything published in Japan) at the Harvard-Yenching Library, and an excellent collection of East Asian art (and don't forget the Boston Museum of Fine Arts). But other universities also have excellent programs in East Asian studies. Prof. Carol Gluck at Columbia is a truly inspiring speaker. Columbia also has great faculty in Middle Eastern studies. Princeton, too, is very strong in both East Asian and Middle Eastern studies. Middlebury, which I know you are interested in, has an excellent program in East Asian studies and offers Arabic also.
I don't think he'd run out of courses to take at any of these schools!</p>