<p>Which of these college majors has higher washout rate four years later (graduation). Just a rough guess based on experiance or observation will do.
I'm curious as I hear 64% of undergrads change majors.</p>
<p>Premed
Actuarial Science (Math majors..right)
Engineering (Mech. Elec. Chem. Civ. Biomed.)</p>
<p>To expound- In what undergrad year are these majors most frequently abandoned? What are the early hurrdles in these programs? I think I heard "organic chemistry" for predmeds</p>
<p>Pre-med is not a major at many colleges. And even where a specific pre-med major is offered, it is not necessary for premedical students to choose it. Premedical students can major in ANYTHING, as long as they complete the specific premedical requirements. The major and the pre-med requirements can be completely separate.</p>
<p>Many students do abandon their plans to try for medical school after finding some of the premedical courses too difficult. But this does not necessarily mean that they have to change their majors.</p>
<p>The 64% figure is misleading. Some students switch majors because they find the program too tough (engineering, premed, and so forth) but others discover a new passion upon entering college. A lot of students discover whole fields that they had never encountered in high school or are fired up by a particular prof. They are not so much abandoning a major as picking up a new one. My favorite story is still the one told me by a former member of the Manhattan Project. He'd gone to Columbia thinking he would major in English as he had a passion for poetry. He was advised to take a course on the lines of Physics for Poets. He good hooked on physics. He later became involved in the nuclear industry. </p>
<p>Some however, do abandon majors after finding out that college courses are quite different from high school ones. I suspect that proof-based courses present a major hurdle to students who thought they were good at math. </p>
<p>Prospective economics majors often switch out upon finding out how much math is required in economics. Larry Summers once claimed that he had originally wanted to be a math major but decided he could not compete against the brilliant math students he encountered at MIT so he switched to economics (it did not hurt that two uncles were Nobel Prize economists and both parents were economists). There is no doubt that he would have excelled as a math major; but he wanted to be the top math student--and did not think he would be.</p>
<p>Engineering majors have a fairly high switch-out rate. I think they make the decision fairly early - right after they see how difficult it is and how much work it takes - especially compared to their colleagues taking much less rigorous majors. If they stick with it for more than a year, I'm sure the switch-out rate goes way down.</p>
<p>One school, one story...my daughter reports that a lot of her friends are considering switching their music majors. There's not a lot of flexibility in the coursework for music majors (whether music ed, BA or BM) which appears to be one factor; another is that music theory is a killer course for those with a limited theory background and seems to weed out those who "just like music." It appears that the music ed kids are the ones most inclined to switch, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the course of the year.</p>
<p>Belive it or not that in some schools, accounting has a 50%+ wash out rate.</p>
<p>At least here, music ed seems to be a big one that people switch out of, once they realize what the requirements are. The program is set up in a way that if you get lower than a B in your music ed classes, you don't pass the class (so a B- means you have to retake the course). The factulty is very demanding on music majors, and many end up switching into music thereapy or composition (some go into performance, but it's mostly music ed to music therapy). A lot of Physician Assistant students also end up switching out of their program by their third year, because the required 3.0 is very difficult, and many are forced out of the program anyway. Most of the time they switch into nursing.</p>
<p>Only 64% of college students change majors? Wow! EVERYONE I know started in something different. Some of the changes were subtle--one area of engineering for another--some not so subtle, like engineering to history.</p>
<p>I'm hearing this about music majors too. Everyone I know of has switched or is thinking of it. I'm wondering whether they deliberastely make the programs tough to weed out those who "just like music" because it's a field where it's tough to make a living.</p>
<p>And back when I was in college everyone seemed to switch out of English. One good friend switched to anthropology the other to Music. It was a reflection of the unpleasantness of a number of the professors at the time.</p>
<p>I know a lot of kids view engineering as a reliable pathway to very decent money within a relatively short time (4 years) as compared to some other majors. Maybe the high placement rate bodes well with parents because I have known several sets of parents who encouraged the S's (not so much D's) to major in engineering. The success rate amongst the kids I've known is only around 50%. I was curious as to whether that is the norm. In recently viewing a "Quality of Life" index (in a well known college "review" book) I noted it tends to be lower at engineering schools. I'm guessing this may be because the kids, from which the data is derived, are studying extremely hard to keep pace. I'm thinking being "undeclared" may be the way to go rather than be pushed or feel obligated to declare a major as a freshman. As Marian pointed out, as regards medicine, as long as you satisfy a core curriculum over the course of four years you can be a candidate for med. school. Any parents out there who feel thier S or D was to hasty in pursuing a major, particularly a difficult one.</p>
<p>I am curious about what difference it makes. Lots of kids change majors, or wind up majoring in something different than they thought they would. Maybe sometimes it's a "washout" (my sister abandoned geology because she couldn't pass a required Physics course), but as often as not it's just a shift in interest that comes with more information and sophistication. I would think that the net change rates for majors would be affected somewhat by movement from things high school kids know about (e.g., engineering, biology, chemistry, math, English, history, economics) to things they might not encounter until some time into their college careers (e.g., anthropology, sociology, operations research).</p>
<p>As with mathmom, at least half the people I knew changed majors at some point, and it generally didn't mean anything bad had happened at all. And especially when something bad had happened, the change tended to be a good move that worked out well. I know only two people who suffered any adverse consequences from changing their majors: </p>
<p>My aforementioned sister -- She hung on too long, trying three times to get over the hurdle, and wound up having to take an extra semester to complete the requirements for her new major. But the part-time job she took during that extra semester turned into a life-long, and extreeeeeeemely lucrative, career, so she came out way ahead.</p>
<p>One of my nieces, who managed to attend four different colleges as a major in three different things over six years before finally sticking somewhere for more than one academic year. She will wind up paying for about 5-1/2 years of college (luckily, most of them at in-state state university tuition rates). This had nothing to do with how hard any of the majors were, and everything to do with her not really wanting to go to college when she started.</p>
<p>Ditto about Organic Chemistry being the "weed-out" class for aspiring pre-medicine students.</p>
<p>I am curious about the statement that the Physics class was the end of a possible Geology major. I understand that at the large universities at least, the Physics classes (and Calculus as well) are two tiered. One track for physics majors and another set of introductory physics for other science majors. For example, I have come across year-long courses entitled
Intro to Physics I, II and University Physics I, II at the same school.</p>
<p>Nightingale, large public universities often have different required math and science sequences for engineering majors, starting with freshman year. Calculus, chemistry and physics courses "for engineers", for instance, are often more rigorous than similar course offerings for non-engineers. If a student starts college as "undeclared major" and is placed in general track math and science, switching to engineering could easily add several semesters to the u.g. program.</p>
<p>However, there can be a serious down-side to declaring a specialty major like engineering from day one, especially if the decision is not student-driven or high school preparation is not appropriate. When I was a graduate teaching assistant in an intro chemistry-for-engineers class, we had quite a few students who were unprepared for the level of work required of prospective engineers, and some who were actually not at all interested in being engineers. The latter were only in the class because their parents, or parent, insisted that they be engineers. Usually this situation resolved itself when the student got a lousy grade and had no choice but to switch majors, but I had one memorable student who was so panicked by his inability to pass the lab portion of the class that I thought he might be suicidal. (He told me his father absolutely would not hear of majoring in anything else.) I mentioned my worries to the professor in charge. A couple of weeks later she thanked me for telling her about the student; when she took him aside and spoke with him, she discovered his mind-set was indeed dangerous and the department had to intervene with the family. </p>
<p>So, yes, I think engineering is a major that many leave after the first year, some because their high school course work was inadequate, some because they discover the field is not right for them after all, and some because they finally get far enough away from over-bearing parents that they start to make important decisions for themselves.</p>
<p>My friend's son ultimately selected the U he attends as he thought he wanted to major in Paper Engineering. When I heard this originally it struck me as a wee bit peculiar...it wasn't as if he was a Crane or anything...</p>
<p>Suffice it to say, Paper Engineering is tough, engineering is tough. Luckily, the school he selected 'has it all' and he will no doubt land in something that suits his technical interests well, maybe even something in engineering.</p>
<p>Neither of mine have changed their majors, both have added to them however...Why in the world should we expect that 17 or 18 year olds know what they will want to do ultimately?? One of my sons specifically selected his college in part because the tour guide described the school as such a great place to 'try things out.' If not in college, then when?</p>
<p>Marite, I liked your citing proof based courses as a reason for opting out of a major. A friend's daughter was intending to be a math major and I mentioned that after three or for semesters she would rarely encounter a number, a bit of an exaggeration by largely true. She look at me like I had two heads and thought I was joking. I assured her that I didnt and was not.</p>
<p>Regarding engineering, my experience is that most students scrub out of the program early on when they are meeting their math, chem, physics and elem analysis requirements which can be a headache in an of themselves but can also lead to schedule overloads without many hss breathers.</p>
<p>"I am curious about what difference it makes. Lots of kids change majors, or wind up majoring in something different than they thought they would."</p>
<p>JHS, in general, I agree that it doesn't really make a difference. I also agree with the sentiment that college should be a time of exploration. However, many kids (mine included) attend college on major-specific scholarships. Changing majors can be a difficult or delayed choice for some students, because of the concern over the loss of $$$. In my daughter's case, she wasn't 100% certain she wanted to be a music major, but the scholarship is exceptional. We discussed it as a family, and she decided to try it for a year; if music ends up not to her liking, she can always switch out her sophomore year...which also gives us breathing room to save the extra funds (or have her search for other scholarships).</p>
<p>Bethievt, I think some of the reason for switching out of music is that very few HS programs approach music from an academic perspective. It's often performance-based, and the focus tends to be on getting ready for the next concert, rather than on the nuts and bolts of theory. Conversely, college programs are very heavy on theory, ear training, etc. In addition, vocalists who are prepared for standard (classical) repertoire aren't all that common, which is where the focus of most college programs lies. And unless a vocalist also plays an instrument, they're generally at a disadvantage in theory, ear training and sight singing; I'm astounded at the number of vocalists I know who learn songs by hearing it over and over...but can't read music.</p>
<p>mezzomom, that was a very helpful post. D is a first-year undeclared at a small LAC. She will probably choose math or physics for practical reasons, two disciplines I know little about but which apparently wind her clock. But this year she's also indulging her love of music, singing and studying theory. She played an instrument throughout middle and high school, so reading comes easily to her, but she looks forward to a better understanding of harmony/counterpoint. We're not sure how this will play out later on, when quals and senior thesis demand more concentration on the major, but at this point everything is new and good and intriguing. Music and science do seem synergistic.</p>
<p>If I might I would like to contribute an opinion as an engineer and physician. Engineering is more difficult at the undergraduate level. If a school has a low attrition rate, it is because of the screening process for the best mathematicians, good teaching and good mentoring. Some engineering schools are incredibly supportive, while others lets undergraduates sink or swim.</p>
<p>Premed is another story entirely. Since most, if not all medical schools do not care what you major in as long as you have the prerequisites, sociology majors compete with math majors. In fact, how well one performs in college is more important to the admissions committee than the major. The engineer with a B- average who has worked three times as hard as the sociology major
is usually rejected MCATS being the same. It is not fair, but so be it.</p>
<p>For those students mature enough to know they want to be a physician or engineer and have the requisite desire, both can be navigated successfully.
The choice of undergraduate college and program is critical, and will often be the determining factor in graduating as an engineer or getting into medical school.</p>