About GPA's

Parents Forum
21

<p>
[quote]
I wonder if the Vanderbilt ADCOM actually meant: "since everyone has a 4.0 of one kind or another, it's not helpful."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You can see what Vanderbilt reports about the students who actually enrolled in the most recent reported year in its Common Data Set filing. </p>

<p><a href="https://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2007%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2007&lt;/a> </p>

<p>There are definitely students with grade averages below 3.75 who are admitted to Vanderbilt. Some other colleges don't give this level of detail in a document that can be found on the Web, but Harvard explicitly says in its on-campus information sessions that it has NO minimum required G.P.A. for admission.</p>

22

<p>jakief....if you get a personal interview. We have been told that with the HUGE amount of applicants, many schools do not offer an interview. </p>

<p>You can ask to meet with someone at the school to ask general questions, but as far as an interview to really explain yourself or your particular situation, ie. low gpa, not enough ec's, poor SAT/ACT scores, they leave that to the application itself. Sometimes it has to be explained in the form of an essay, ie. "why my Sophomore grades were so low compared to Jr and Sr year.</p>

<p>The 9 schools that I visited with my son this year all recalculated gpa's and did not offer personal interviews as a part of the acceptance process.</p>

23

<p>I agree that GPA's are of questionable value given the issue of "fluff" courses I originally raised, the variations among thousands of high schools (even among teachers within each high school), etc. This was supposed to be the purpose of "standardized" testing, SAT's and ACT's, but now all we hear is about how they are being de-emphasized and how some schools don't require them at all! None of it makes sense to me. When I read about a 4.0 student getting mediocre test scores, it tells me the grading at the school is very suspect.</p>

<p>I don't think anyone citing a personal GPA on CC is using a "core" calculation, which makes the discussions of what GPA works for what school pretty useless.</p>

24

<p>Our high school (as do many others) provides a school profile as part of the application package.</p>

<p>Such a profile includes GPA distribution for the last graduating class, percentage of students taking APs and the results, mean SAT scores and the like. It also indicates that our high school only uses core classes in calculating GPAs, does not weigh the GPA and does not rank students.</p>

<p>Such a profile gives adcomms a sense of the caliber of the school so that an applicant can be seen in context.</p>

<p>My sense also is this is why ad reps are assigned geographical areas. They come to know the schools and how students from these schools do at their college. In some cases, they may also be familiar with the courses offered at a school, so they know why the top students at one school took 8 APS whereas at other schools the best students only took one or two.</p>

<p>So admissions do not see student GPAs in a vacuum.</p>

<p>This is also why Naviance is an invaluable tool, because it provides hard data on how a student with your kid's stats has fared at a specific school.</p>

25

<p>The more selective the school, the more likely that the GPA is unweighted because there is already an expectation that students should be taking the most rigerous classes their school offers.</p>

<p>NACAC's 2006 Annual State of College Admission Report provides analysis of the combined results from the Admission Trends Survey and the Counseling Trends Survey. Based on surveys of school counselors and colleges and universities nationwide, NACAC provides this report to highlight issues of concern to college-bound students, their parents, and the educators who serve them. </p>

<p>Even if you don't read the whole report, you should definitely read Chapter 4 Factors in the Admissions Process</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nacacnet.org/NR/rdonlyres/7CA6BEAA-90C5-4357-A498-FB0566564D71/0/06SOCA_Chapter4.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nacacnet.org/NR/rdonlyres/7CA6BEAA-90C5-4357-A498-FB0566564D71/0/06SOCA_Chapter4.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Colleges and universities receive transcripts and GPA calculations from thousands of high schools, each of which may calculate GPAs differently.</p>

<p>Many high schools use a traditional 4-point scale to measure grade averages, others use weighted 4.5- or 5-point scales, while still others use grade scales that reach as high as 8 or 10.</p>

<p>To provide a standard comparison of grade point averages among applicants, some colleges recalculate grade point averages. Colleges
are virtually evenly split on the practice of recalculating GPAs—49 percent do and 51 percent do not. </p>

<p>High yield institutions are more likely than low yield institutions to recalculate GPA. </p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>(Basically more selective schools where if admitted the student is more likely to enroll will recalculate your GPA to a 4 point scale)</p>

<p>Schools will look at major courses : English, Math, Social studies, Sciences, Foreign language, etc. They will back out of the GPA: Band, Gym, Peer Leadership, Yeaarbook, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
This is also why Naviance is an invaluable tool, because it provides hard data on how a student with your kid's stats has fared at a specific school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't agree with this as admissions is much more than hard data especially at elite schools whose goal is to build a well rounded class that is aligned with the institutional mission. There are many "soft factors" that will move an application to the admit pile once they reach committee.</p>

<p>I think that robyrm and coureur gave really good examples with the kind of cake you bring to the table and the art and science of admissions (gotta post in the best of CC):</p>

<p>
[quote]
</p>

<p>quoted by coureur:</p>

<p>Are ECs really important?</p>

<p>Sure they are important. Your grades, coursework, and test scores are the cake, and the ECs are the frosting. But so often these days many of the cakes are excellent. So it comes down to who did the best job with the frosting.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]

quoted by robyrm:</p>

<p>Forget random, forget unpredictable...</p>

<p>There is the SCIENCE of college admissions.
There is the ART of college admissions.</p>

<p>Art is not random. Art is not unpredictable. Art is interpretable and intangible, art is in the eye of the beholder, art is compelling, art is novel, art is honest.</p>

<p>The creation of the art doesn't start in the last year of high school, the creation of the art starts years before...the application is a proxy, albeit a key one, for a long and loving process

[/quote]
</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
There are many "soft factors" that will move an application to the admit pile once they reach committee.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Naviance will prove or disprove if this is the case for your student.</p>

<p>When I look at Naviance data for our high school, in virtually all cases GPA and SAT scores are sufficient to indicate likelihood of acceptance for a given college or university.</p>

27

<p>That's generally true, with three caveats. First, at the most selective colleges, the GPA/SAT matrix may indicate almost certain rejection, but they can't indicate likely acceptance, because there will be very mixed results for the high-stat candidates. Essentially, for the 10-15 most selective schools, GPA/SAT does not give a good read of admission likelihood. Second, at many colleges there will be a band of GPA/SAT where admission is virtually assured, but then a wide band where admission is possible, but not a sure thing. GPA/SAT can tell you if you are in that band, but can't tell you if you have whatever other factors make a difference there. Finally, looking at Naviance you don't know what special factors (athletics, donations) might have influenced a particular decision at the margins.</p>

28

<p>I found Naviance to be a useful tool, that told you a lot about admissions. Three examples from our school:</p>

<p>Example 1
RPI
Above a certain GPA and SAT score 100% admittance. My conclusion, since our son was above those minimums - this was a sure safety. (Little did I know that the school would be listed as a "New Ivy" and admissions would go from 75% to 45% in one year, but my son was admitted by Thanksgiving thanks to a priority application.)</p>

<p>Example 2
Stanford
Less than a dozen applicant, only two accepted in six years. Those two were from the middle - 1250 SATs, 3.7 or so GPA. Asked around - one was URM and politically connected, the other was a legacy and sports recruit. I figured my son's chances were slim to none though his scores and grades were higher than both admittees by a lot. He was indeed rejected.</p>

<p>Example 3
Harvard
Lots of people applied. A very clear line where above a certain GPA and SAT score about 50% were admitted. (One or two outliers below the line.) Now I know our top students have been Davidson Scholars, Intel winners etc. So it was hard to know just how my son's accomplishments would measure up. But he was on the high end of the admitted stats and he was a legacy. I figured he had a somewhat better than 50/50 chance of being admitted. And he was.</p>

<p>Looking at Naviance may show some surprising results (I don't think every school has the same Stanford pattern we do). I also find Naviance helpful because our school grades on a 100 point scale, and it saves me the bother of trying to translate it into some standard 4.0 GPA.</p>

29

<p>Can someone enlighten me on exactly what Naviance is/does. Do all high schools use it?</p>

30

<p>Naviance is a program that enables schools to plot the application results of previous years' students based on their GPA and SAT scores.</p>

<p>So, for example, you could look up Vassar College and see whether a student with a 3.7 GPA and 1400 SAT had been accepted from your school or denied.</p>

<p>It is based on historical data, so the program will provide lots of data points on colleges with many applicants from your high school, and few or none for those schools which generally do not get applicants from your high school.</p>

<p>Not all schools use it, but you can sometimes gain access to Naviance systems at other schools if yours does not have it (not as good of data for you personally, of course, but if the school district shares many characteristics with yours, it may still be helpful).</p>

<p>P.S. re "soft factors" -- I agree with JHS' caveats -- the remark about "soft factors" could suggest to some hopefuls that soft factors can make up for low GPA or scores, whereas it is more likely that the soft factors come into play only in those cases where all applicants have the necessary high GPA and high scores. An undisputable hook, as shown by mathmom's example 2, would show up on Naviance as an accept deeply in the pool of the denied, and doesn't play into my understanding of "soft factor" considerations, which would be more like geographical distribution, needing an oboe player and the like.</p>

31

<p>I called my D's counselor on Monday to find out her GPA. She said she has an 85.74 average on a 4.0 scale which gives her a 3.2 GPA. I thought that was rather low. Yesterday when D visited the guidance office she asked another counselor what the GPA is for an 85.74 and he said 3.5.</p>

<p>Does anyone know how to calculate a 85.75?</p>

32

<p>Here's one conversion chart:</p>

<p>GPA</a> Conversion Chart</p>

33

<p>Princeton Review offers this chart: GPA</a> Conversion Chart</p>

<p>(crossposted!)</p>

34

<p>If you compare those two charts you'll see they are quite different. On one a 90 is a 3.125 on the other it's a 3.5.</p>

35

<p>Sorry, I should've checked -- much better to go by the Princeton Review chart.</p>

36

<p>Our sons' school uses its own version of Naviance that provides more info on all kids who applied to colleges. It also codes sex, legacy, ED/EA, athletic admit, special circumstances, URM, performing arts. </p>

<p>It's usefulness was limited in that the high school is small and there are not that many students. Things have changed so much in admissions that even data from 5 years ago is pretty much outdated. Also most of the schools where S applied did not have much info with only a few kids having applied from his school. It would be much more helpful if they pooled the info with like schools in the area so that there would be more data as I think with sufficient info that is the best predictor you can have.</p>

37

<p>JSM,</p>

<p>You are trying to answer the unanswerable. It does not matter what chart you find on the web. What matters are two charts: the one used by the HS IF they convert GPA from a percentile, and the one used by a college to which your kid applies. You will never know the latter.</p>

<p>In truth, the situation is much more complex, and depends on the profile provided by the HS to the college, depends on the experience that college has with students from a particular HS, depends on the schedule difficulty of the student and so forth.</p>

<p>This is why colleges want to know class rank in addition to GPA. And even though some HS, like the one my D went to, have a policy of not ranking, they can (and do) provide enough information to colleges that the college can figure out the rank with decent accuracy. And for those at the top of the class, the recs will take care of adding more precision.</p>

<p>So, again, do not lose sleep over comparative GPA versus other schools. The comparison that matters is internal: Class rank.</p>

38

<p>Ask to see the college version of your student's transcript and the school attachment. It is something every student and parent should examine, as mistakes have been frequently found. There may be info on the transcript that should be expunged and the school description may be outdated. You should know exactly what the colleges are seeing. How each college interprets the data is out of your sight but not what the high school provides in terms of transcript.</p>

39

<p>Here is another issue to be considered. Some colleges do factor in the class rating for the calculation.</p>

<p>In my son's case, there are 240 students in his Sr. class. He is #13 in his class, but still considered only in the top 10% of the class. If a school is looking for top 5%, you either have to be the absolute top (meaning not 1 B on your entire transcript)or just behind. My s has a 4.5 weighted GPA with 8 AP's, but from 1 B in a class Sophomore year, his unweighted GPA is a 3.9.</p>

<p>Some say the competition can't be that tough?</p>

40

<p>The class rank which most schools like to use, can be a problem if your school is not considered a top level one by the college and the rank is accordingly adjusted. Is ranking done with weighted GPAs, Britbrat, at your S's school? With 8 APs and I would guess honors courses, if you son is not in the top 5%, your school has to have a lot of kids taking a lot of advanced courses and doing very well int them. If that is the case, it is probably a school known to top colleges.</p>