<p>BTW, re “worth the money”: I don’t have the money, so it’s all rather, er, academic. Inn’t it? :)</p>
<p>Pepper 03 - The small LAC sounds like the right call for your son, particularly given the range of his talents and interests. Let him take different subjects for a couple of years, in an environment where he will have almost daily access to senior faculty, and then decide about a major. If by then he has actually figured out what an engineer does (I love the high % of students who apply to engineering schools because someone told them that’s what you should do if you have good grades and test scores in math and science, despite having no idea whatsoever about what engineers actually do) there will be an appropriate math or science degree for him to select, and many wonderful graduate engineering programs to apply to.</p>
<p>*My husband taught Harvard undergraduates while he was working on his doctorate. For years. He started out as a teaching fellow, then became a non-resident tutor at Leverett House… … *</p>
<p>LOL, how was I supposed to infer any of that from what you wrote?</p>
<p>I mistakenly assumed that you and your husband have had some firsthand experience with Harvard undergrad education at least!</p>
<p>Guess I wasn’t mistaken after all :p.</p>
<p>
My college had a “History of Science” major which I have often thought would have been a great fit for me. It’s a great option for someone who likes science, but doesn’t necessarily want to spend their life doing science.</p>
<p>Just a general note–it seems that the decision to go to a college with big merit money is often treated as a financially wise decision and nothing else, or even a sacrifice. While, yes, the big merit aid I received from my alma marter and the resulting sub-$10k annual cost was a big factor in my decision to attend and is something I (and my parents) are truly grateful for, my school and my experience there is/was so much more than that. I got to spend four years on a campus nationally noted for its beautiful and that could still take my breath away at times even in senior year. I lived in a small city that is the cultural hearth of the state, a vibrant, active, involved, independent, gorgeous place that I still miss from time to time. I made amazing, supportive, hilarious, incredibly intelligent, close-knit friends and joined a wonderful sorority. I had professors, even in larger classes, who knew my name and gave me individualized feedback without being asked. My friends commented on how so many of the faculty at the university kept open doors outside of office hours. I had faculty completely outside of my field who were perfectly to acted as mentors or advise an independent study course. Within my field, I worked with nationally recognized mentors who actively involved me in publishing, conceptualizing, and understanding our research and who still involve me in grant applications, projects, and publications even though I’m now thousands of miles away in grad school and maintain a vested and active interest in my success. I am the only person in my incredibly intelligent, accomplished grad school cohort to come in with journal publications and one of the only to come in with significant teaching experience, things I attribute mostly to the wonderful opportunities at my alma marter. </p>
<p>It wasn’t perfect–there were plenty of bumps in the road, blood boiling moments, and not-so-great days to be sure–but then again, nothing is. The cost of my little-known state u was a draw and a boon, but it was so much more then a cost-effective four year degree–it was truly my home, and as excited to have the opportunity to pursue my PhD as I am, almost a year later, I do miss it, even more than I thought I would. It may have been a few rungs down from where my stats may have placed me, but it certainly wasn’t mediocre or dull, nor would I call it “second best.”</p>
<p>College Our records show that you have never posted to our site before…</p>
<p>Psych–wonderful testimony! What is your alma mater, if you don’t mind my asking? It sounds like a wonderful place. :)</p>
<p>Psych thank you for the very helpful feedback.</p>
<p>My son is leaning towards the financial safety-it’s a good 20K less per year than a school he may like a bit more right now but the gap is closing as he learns more about the school-one he didn’t want to even apply to but we made him “just in case”.</p>
<p>I don’t know where he will end up yet but reading your story reinforces my feelings that he will do well wherever he goes as long as the fit is close-there is no such thing as perfection anyway.</p>
<p>In contrast to LD’s H, my own experience as a teaching fellow and non-resident tutor at one of the Harvard houses left me greatly appreciating what Harvard offers to undergrads, and what the Harvard undergrads offer each other. I would have gotten a lot out of the experience myself and would have been thrilled for my S to go there. H, who also had teaching fellow and asst. prof experience at Harvard and was an undergrad at Yale thinks Yale is even better. </p>
<p>S is also a writer who doesn’t want to major in English. I’m not sure how long this will last, but his current plan is to major in History and Philosophy of Science.</p>
<p>^motherbear, please don’t get me wrong. I’m not knocking Harvard, really I’m not! But, for a prospective undergrad (even assuming he/she can get in), the question is: Is it worth the money? For many, obviously, it is. For us, it really isn’t. (Because we’re near retirement age and therefore have a nest egg, we do not qualify for Harvard’s very generous need-based aid for families earning < $150K [or whatever the threshold is]).</p>
<p>I know this discussion degenerated into a tussle between the advocates of elite colleges and the advocates of less elite colleges. But the OP asked whether bright kids could get a decent education if they attend a school where they are above the 75th percentile for stats. I think the answer is yes. We can maintain and defend that stance, I believe, without knocking Harvard and other elite schools. Speaking for myself, I don’t denigrate Harvard, but I don’t worship it, either. And considering that I grew up in Greater Boston, where Harvard-Worship is all-pervasive, that’s saying something… ;)</p>
<p>There are two questions</p>
<ol>
<li>Can the student get a decent education if they attend a school where they are above the 75th percentile for stats?</li>
</ol>
<p>The answer is clearly yes, provided that the school is otherwise a good fit for the student – and that in any case, looking at “stats” (GPA & SAT scores) is really the wrong question – and here on CC, when people talk of “stats” they usually mean test scores only, since there is no way for us to get data about GPA range at most schools. Test scores are a very loose proxy for ability, and the schools that have gone SAT optional have not suffered in any way. Student attitude and motivation is far more important – and that may be more apparent through factors other than numbers. </p>
<p>I’d add that the larger the school, the less likely it is that the 75th percentile is meaningful on an individual basis. If there 20,000 students, the question becomes something like “how will my kid ever manage if there are only 5000 students with test scores as high as his his?” – so you really have to dig deeper than that.</p>
<ol>
<li> Assuming that the kid has a choice between a school where the other students have higher stats and one where the students have lower stats, with the lower stat school costing significantly less – is the higher stat school worth the cost differential?</li>
</ol>
<p>(This wasn’t stated in the OP, but I think is the most likely reason the question was asked; the other time it comes up for a parent is when the kid <em>wants</em> a school that is less prestigious than the parent <em>wants</em> – and I think pushing a kid into school that they don’t want for any reason other than finances is a recipe for disaster. The finance issue doesn’t make it any less problematical on the kid’s end, but certainly parents have a right to place a limit on how much they will pay to fund the child’s dreams).</p>
<p>Again, the answer to the cost-differential question is that it depends on the particular circumstances – fit factors, size of school, expected major, etc. — and definitely not on reported test score ranges. It also depends a lot on the kid’s personality and goals – is the kid the type who will really take advantage of all that is offered at the higher ranked college? Obviously, if the kid is going to spend the bulk of their college time drinking and partying, they don’t need to attend an elite college to do that. While of course parents don’t want their kids doing that in any case… I do think parents have an overall sense of whether they as parents will get their money’s worth sending a particular kid to a college that stretches their budget. </p>
<p>I’d note that there is no indication whatsoever that the OP’s kid was deciding between an Ivy-level elite college and a bottom of the barrel school, especially given the generous financial policies of Harvard and a handful of other very top ranked elites.</p>
<p>calmom, well put indeed. I think you have framed the questions perfectly.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think this is where there can be significantly different answers depending on the school. For example, there are large state universities where the students may not be Ivy-level brilliant, but are generally solid, hard workers who take their studies seriously – and there are large state universities where the prevailing mindset is that college is a way station to get to the frat parties and the football games, and a serious student would be an outsider. The specific stats of these two universities might be the same, but the serious student who is looking to go to either might have a very different experience.</p>
<p>As with most topics like this, hard to generalize. Some may have done really well in h.s. but that doesn’t always translate to success in college. Then there are those who go off to college and find it hard handling their new found freedom and while they might have been a good student in the past, they will struggle if they don’t apply themselves in college. At whatever college you attend, they will a range of peformance levels among the student body for any number of reasons.</p>
<p>calmom,</p>
<p>Barnard doesn’t have great financial aid? That’s news to me.</p>
<p>I don’t know what post of mine you are responding to, but Barnard’s aid policies are competitive with other similarly situated LAC’s, not with elite Ivies or the top LAC’s, and not with Columbia’s current policies. Keep in mind that Barnard has a particularly small endowment for a college its size – while that doesn’t impact academics negatively because of the shared facilities with Columbia, it does impact the financial aid, which must come out of Barnard’s own budget.</p>
<p>
So hard to predict this though! I would never have guess that my slackerish kid would step up to the plate and become so serious at Tufts. I can’t tell whether he was just ready to grow up (which I saw signs of last spring) or whether there is something in the water there, but I might easily have thought he wasn’t going to take advantage of the institution, but he has.</p>
<p>Meantime my older computer nerd has learned to slack off a bit. Not enough to limit options, but he’s not a straight A student either.</p>
<p>Maybe we can rephrase the title of this thread to “the food vs other factors” as for going out to dinner. The author of “Crazy U” came up with “eat the menu not the dinner” when talking about choosing a college.</p>
<p>I think I have an interesting view on this that is pretty unique… I had this experience but at a boarding school before I got into a college where I am about average(Not sure if I am, but I don’t feel like I’m in the top 10%). </p>
<p>First off, the most dangerous thing about academic settings where you can easily do all the work, you could fall off track because of a room mate or a group of friends or just a general lack of motivation if things do get hard. Second off, you can really kick ass and have a strong persona of excellence that really does a lot to bring in extra help from teachers with projects and gets you a bit more face time with the faculty. It set me up really well to have some great accomplishments when applying to college. Before you step into a class, most teachers will have asked around about a student or heard of you from general conversation at small schools… Being a stand out gives you an edge from the start. You also get a little bit of priority when picking classes I believe. These perks are from a school with less than 700 students, and I’d imagine most liberal arts colleges or specialized colleges inside of universities offer the same benefits.</p>
<p>I went to a college UCSB with higher stats than the student body. The thing is, the challenge comes with what courses you take. I took math econ and probability courses and found everyone else is my class was also above the average stats, and if not, they weren’t doing so well (they got C’s). I also worked hard to get an A, it wasn’t easy. I could easily get a B, but with the current job market, the GPA is counting more, and higher than a 3.0 is essential. I fit in though, I even got a job as a school tutor and teachers assistant, and have joined an academic business fraternity. So it worked out for me.</p>