<p>I'm not getting many responses on the Search and Selection forum, so I'll try here.</p>
<p>I'm curious to hear from/about students who attended a college where they were well above the median or even the 75th percentile of the other students, stats-wise. I'd like to know whether these students felt challenged and satisfied with their college experiences, or whether they regretted not going to a school that was a better match in terms of test scores and GPA. Colleges can be appealing for many reasons--location, school spirit, financial aid, etc.--as well as academic fit. Should a prospective student favor academic fit over these other things in order to have a fulfilling and beneficial college career?</p>
<p>[Please don't flame me--this is a sincere question and will help us weigh my son's various choices fairly. Thank you!]</p>
<p>This can depend on the size of the school. For example, at a big state school, a student may be well above the median, but there may well be a sufficient population of similar kids. This was most definitely the case for a large group of my friends (greybeards now, admittedly). They all went to a big state school, in the honors program, found each other and were well served.</p>
<p>At our state flagship and at many other schools, the honors college offers challenge, special housing, unique opportunities, preferential registration, and other advantages I can’t think of right now.</p>
<p>Thanks, mafool and nemom. DS has already sent in all his apps, all to private schools ranging from 1700-13,000 undergrads. He likes different things about all the schools and can see himself at any of them. It will probably come down to FA in the end; however, I didn’t want this to become a “do I go for the money or the most challenging academics” thread. I’m really interested in hearing about whether students who chose, for whatever reason, a school for which they were significantly above the median, wound up satisfied or disappointed with their choice.</p>
<p>Different kids will give different weights to the characteristics that are important to them, just as adults do when they use a company or business to work for or a job that they are content with or a desire to rise through the ranks. My second is at a college where he went in as the upper quartile and I doubt he ever gives his high school statistics a thought. But I know this about both S1 and S2 neither would be happy at a stretchy school where they ended up in the bottom half.</p>
<p>D3 attends a liberal arts school where the students at the conservatory (where she’s enrolled) have considerably more impressive stats than their colleages in the Arts & Sciences college. She decided to attend because of merit aid plus a great fit with the music professor there.</p>
<p>She’s a second semester freshman now. Each semester, she’s been enrolled mostly in music classes but also in two “university” classes, freshman writing 1&2 and a distribution requirement (social science, science). In both cases, she found herself at or near the top of the class and her contributions to class discussion were (in her humble opinion!) very strong. She earned A’s first semester, which was nice. In her case, the relative ease of her academic classes allows her to focus more on her music.</p>
<p>Socially, she started strong, but this semester, she’s beginning to notice that the nonmusic majors simply don’t understand why she’s always going off to the practice rooms and missing things like movie night. Although she’s got a circle of friends among the honors students, she’s also expressed her dissatisfaction with the party culture prevalent on campus. Lately, she’s hanging out more with the music kids.</p>
<p>So, the story is unfolding. If the OP’s child is part of a special program that meets his/her academic needs (a research position? internship possibilities? etc), with good financial aid and a group of students with similar interests and abilities, it could work. For D, the concept of graduating without any debt really swayed her decision - it means she’ll be able to pursue whatever career path she decides to take without having to compromise in order to pay back student loans.</p>
<p>momdoc: my D is well above the 75th percentile at the university she chose (she is a freshman.) As mafool states, her school has a well regarded honors college & she is taking part in two honors programs. I asked her point blank during Fall break if she felt like she had shortchanged herself by not going someplace with a more rigorous reputation. She said absolutely not; her honors classes were 10-15 kids & she felt that her peers were at the same level that she would have encountered at higher ranked schools. </p>
<p>This is not to say that she hasn’t been annoyed by one or two classes. However, they were classes that were large survey classes that she needed to take to fulfill a core requirement, so she wasn’t going to love them anyway. </p>
<p>She loved the campus from the moment she stepped foot on it. I felt a couple of the smaller LACs that she applied to might have been better for her academically but she disagreed and told us that she wanted the “big college” experience. So far it seems as if she’s chosen well.</p>
<p>Going back to my earlier post, momdoc, do the schools for which your son will be above the median have separate honors programs? If so, that may be the factor that bridges/equalizes the academic options.</p>
<p>“Colleges can be appealing for many reasons–location, school spirit, financial aid, etc.–as well as academic fit. Should a prospective student favor academic fit over these other things in order to have a fulfilling and beneficial college career?”
No, academic “fit” should not be the ONLY factor that determines where a student decides to go, imho.
My son is graduating in May from his “safety” U- the one I thought he would never go to. He was accepted at 13 other higher ranked schools and $$ was a factor, though not the only factor, in his final decision of where to matriculate[ he was awarded a full tuition scholarship at big U] I asked him this week if he had any regrets about choosing to go to big U., and although he had real concerns his freshman year about finding students with similar abilities, and did end up transferring [for 1 qtr ] to a much more academically “higher ranked” college, which ironically turned out to be a bad “fit” as there were no professors doing research in his particular field if interest[ that’s another story. lol!], and he decided to return for his Sophomore year after realizing that he had found plenty of really smart students at big U. Since then he has had many opportunities to excel and to do outside research with the full support of the college, and it has paid off in spades- he has just been accepted at both Stanford and Cal Tech for his PHD studies. So going to a college that was initially not a great academic “fit” for him, has not ended up hurting him one little bit.</p>
<p>Both DDs have been above the 75%ile for their schools. DD1 has been very challenged, probably largely due to time requirements for her major/minor (English and Studio Art). DD2 has been challenged due to her major/minor as well (Math/Econ) but more from the intellectual challenge. Both have loved their schools.</p>
<p>I think it depends. My 1st choice school was an intense LAC that I had been told from an alumn “was as intense as my grad school program was” and I was in the bottom median range for it, and got in ED. The school I ended up going to, I would say I’m in the upper range for it, and while they don’t report (that I can find) ACTs/SATs (which aren’t required anyways) word of mouth tells me my score was a bit higher than most. </p>
<p>I made Dean’s list first term, which was nice, but I was recently called out for not putting any real effort into it. I was going to self-design my major but I’m starting to believe transferring to my real safety would be more prudent financially, and unlike this college, has an Honors program. I may still be bored, but for my field, it’s going to be experience that matters, and then a MA. Might as well save some cash, right? I’m not challenged, and I do feel like it would have happened elsewhere, but it’s all about the money, in some cases.</p>
<p>edit: I’m honestly worried my abilities have dulled a little over this year… I went from writing papers weekly to perhaps once or twice a term. That may be just me, though. Haha.</p>
<p>Od1’s short list consists of 3 schools where she is at or above the 75%ile for admitted students. All three are too small to have separate “honors” colleges, and even if they did, I wouldn’t encourage her to leave the general population - but that’s me. I’m pretty anti-elitist. Anyway, I am not worried about challenge because a fair number of kids mature in college. That high school screw-up can suddenly come alive and give Tommy Top-of-the-class a run for his money, and that’s a pretty commonplace occurrance (as is the case of Tommy becoming a major slacker). Besides, even at the 75%ile, a quarter of the kids are at or above where my kid is, enough to provide her with a challenge.</p>
<p>I don’t think Honors Colleges are Elitism, necessarily. I think they’re there for talented, studious, or gifted students who want the extra resources and work. If an Honors college exists in a State U, the kids who can’t afford the more selective LACs and U’s can get the same type of rigor for less money. If an undergrad wants to do an Honors Project/Thesis, who’s to say that’s elitist? </p>
<p>But I find this attitude is very common at my school, and I was told many times over that people initially assumed I was elitist because I wanted to know if I could overpoint on class credits (without incurring fees) during orientation week, and how I might go about taking an extra class. I was also told by other students that Honors programs “ruined schools” (I’d participated in them since 2nd grade and owe my education to those programs) and made other kids look bad. </p>
<p>It has been an awkward and delicate experience thus far - my first term out I was told my very voice (not the tone, just my voice) was condescending. I’ve had to bite my tongue several times over because I fear being misconstrued because I want to find out about extra credit or some such thing.</p>
<p>I did come in with the expectation that everyone was going to be my intellectual peer, and somehow in doing so, people assumed I was talking down to them, when my intention was more to talk on an equal level. </p>
<p>I would consider the reactions/atmosphere towards high stats students if you’re in the top of the incoming class.</p>
<p>My daughter is at a small, private engineering school. Not sure where exactly she “fits” academically, but she is above average. For her, the challenge is to get "A"s. She gets all concerned if she is below an “A”. Not to say it doesn’t happen, she is just happier near the top of her class. </p>
<p>So, does it hurt to be in the top 75%. I’d say it depends on the student. For some, that is the best “fit”. Others will want more of a challenge.</p>
<p>Like prior posters, I think “it depends.” In general, Professors teach to the level of the students. Where you have a class of motivated students, you’ll have few regrets. Where (as my D had for one semester) students with widely varying abilities, things can unwind in a hurry.</p>
<p>That aside, I think the attitude of the student is a more important factor. I have one really smart friend who actively searched out classes with average students. “Easy A” he explained. Conversely I’ve had friends who did really well in tough classes due to their attitude that hard work would overcome. YMMV.</p>
<p>This has actually been weighting heavily on my mind lately and I got a lot out of reading the responses to your post. I have wondered whether Honors programs at X, Y, or Z schools are going to be enough if my S doesn’t get in to any of his reaches. He also wants to go on to graduate work right away after undergrad and I wonder how difficult it may be to get into grad programs at top schools from Honors college vs. a top tier LAC or Ivy. Of course we are just waiting…it will all be clear come May :). But yes, I share your concerns and just want him to feel fully engaged in his education where ever he goes.</p>
<p>“safety” U- the one I thought he would never go to" could have taken these words out of my mouth. DD chose a state U with full scholarship in honors program over a more competitive top ranked school. I was concerned but felt she needed to make the choice. She is well above the 75th%. She has done well, is challenged but not killing herself and has found a good social fit. It seems she knew best as I now believe had she gone to the very highly competitive school it would not have been easy to find the happy balance she now has. College is about many things and depending on the individual finding the proper mix and balance is important. It’s not easy as there are so many variables but a motivated student can find opportunities to enhance their education in any setting.</p>
<p>Several classmates from my highly rigorous urban public magnet high school who were well above 75 percentile in SAT scores at their first colleges…regardless of high school GPAs felt extremely unchallenged at our local state/city colleges…even those in honors programs. </p>
<p>They mentioned feeling they were wasting their time sitting in classrooms feeling frustratingly bored as Profs/instructors taught to the slowest students in the class and yet, frustrated by a bureaucracy that won’t allow them to skip to more advanced courses. What’s more interesting was that several of them were in the bottom 30%(C+ or lower average) of our graduating class if we’re solely counting HS GPAs. Nearly all ended up transferring up to an elite university/LAC…including some Ivies and LACs like Reed and ended up being much happier for it. </p>
<p>This wasn’t limited solely to public university students, either. Knew several kids who transferred up from “lower-level” private universities for similar reasons to elite colleges. </p>
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<p>Why is it elitist for a high academic achiever in college to desire an educational environment where most/all students are at or exceed their own academic levels? You see nothing wrong with such students being stuck in classes where the vast majority operate on a far lower academic level that he/she will be bored to tears as was the case of several high school classmates who ended up at schools far below their actual level because of financial reasons and/or low high school GPA because of our high school’s high academic rigor?</p>
<p>My son is at a reach college and there are days when I wonder if he wouldn’t be better off at his safety. Don’t get me wrong - we are thrilled with the opportunities he’s had, but worry a little that his grades will put him at a disadvantage. I think he’d have had better grades at his safety. A lot will depend on how things play out this semester and whether a summer with Arabic immersion can make up for pretty mediocre Arabic grades now. </p>
<p>For him the biggest issue with the safety was what he perceived as the first class citizen status of being in the honors college and the fact that while his safety was strong in his major if he changed his mind its considerably less stellar.</p>
<p>momdoc, as a general rule, I believe that students do better when surrounded by their academic peers.
However, there are some very self-motivated students who will excel no matter what. What is your son’s current situation? Is he surrounded by academic peers now? If so, is he more motivated and intellectually stimulated because they are surrounding him? If not, does he go above and beyond the curriculum to stimulate himself?</p>