<p>When your child starts to “hone in” on the final choices of schools, many of us read all of the reputation claims and believe our child will take full advantage of those offerings. IF well above-top-75th percentile, does the school promise real research opportunities working side-by-side with professors at an undergraduate level? Will they have the opportunity to be published in such a capacity? What is their reputation for real placement of top students in highly desireable internships? How well do the alumni provide such offerings for top students? What is or is not available may make a huge difference in whether the (lets say) top 5% student will have more to avail him or her self to than simply an “honors college”. </p>
<p>STILL, despite all of the window dressing [which hopefully is more deserved than folklore], its really got to come down to your child. WILL YOUR CHILD DEMAND ALL OF THE BENEFITS OF THE SCHOOL YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR PRESCIOUS DOLLARS ON THE LINE FOR??? Will your child be willing to walk in and ask for help from all of the various “centers” that provide free tutoring, free career planning, free guidance for this and for that? Most LAC’s offer so much more [per capita] than you’d find at Big State University to address such needs. Those are primarily focused on academics, but there can be significantly more opportunities also to just maximize the maturization process.</p>
<p>The reputation my wife and I were sold on at D1’s top 20 LAC was that:
They will really challenge the student; but
They’ll hold their hand in the process.
They’ll also leave the school being a very effective writer; regardless of their major.
Now into the last semester of her senior year, we as parents believe #1 and #3 were very true. Number #2 - not so much; as D1 frequently was not willing to reach her hand out to be “held” by those promised in all the brochures. For D1, the hand was only held out for the expertise of her same-age peer classmates. That was very frustrating to us parents; but as an adult, these are the types of adult decisions your child will make. About junior year, that all changed. She finally started to appreciate this wasn’t an academic “friends always first playground”. This was her moment and if she didn’t grasp for the opportunities, she would really regret not having done so… </p>
<p>My wife remembers the orientation at the college where they had all the students stand up who were in the top 10% of their H.S. class. It was about 93%. My daughter was in top 15% of her H.S. class which was one of the top 5 publics in our state. It has been hard on her ego that she has been in the bottom 33% of her class at top 20 LAC. She’s finishing slightly over a 3.0 in a tough major. Still, her GRE scores place her in a significantly higher national percentile of students seeking graduate school than did her SAT scores 4 years previously. So while she’s not an academic “star” at her LAC, she’s done well enough to hold her own in a very competitive environment and raise the bar significantly in her overall knowledge and learning skills. Never has she not busted her butt for even for a “C”. She’s also been able to create an independent study which is focused on her future pursuits. She had significant guidance and involvement throughout that semester with her professor and the department chair. </p>
<p>But in the end, the proof is in the pudding whether or not the choice to attend an easier school at presumably less money is worth it. Not taking as much stock in the test score percentile as her parents, D1 is trying to look at things as if she received the course-work that will help her be in management sooner in her chosen field. If she had attended a skills-only Big State University, the experiences in leadership she’s had the past year and a half would never have been realized. She would have been lost in the crowd; just another number. Big State may have such offerings, but I didn’t see them at mine some 30 years ago. I also wouldn’t have seen her stepping up at such a huge forum where she was brave enough to do so at her LAC and what she’s taken away from that is probably the best education she has received. </p>
<p>So I guess its like so many places where you hear from students that “the experience in attending college X will reflect how much you put in to it…”. Just be certain the student has a wide array of “great fit for them” options and not simply one. D1 will be finishing her degree 180 degrees in the opposite direction for the top reputation why this was on the list to start with. She’s now applied to Big State University [amongst others] to get the skill sets for her chosen field. Some might say that reflects she wasted time and money. Had she had the foresight at age 16 to know what she now does at 22, we would have done it with a totally different focus to have included schools that had her career interest. </p>
<p>Still, if you asked her; would she trade in these four years to attend elsewhere? Not a chance. She’s loved this school even though she went through countless all nighters to not cram, but to stay current with the demanding work load. She’s leaving with a tremendous group of friends and peers and connections I imagine she’ll have the rest of her life.</p>
<p>Menloparkmom, the tradeoff is in the housing market and COL. </p>
<p>Wudman is correct in that the one of the big questions to consider is whether your student will take advantage of the opportunities available. Some kids may want the resources of a larger school to find research projects that are closer to their specific interests. Other kids want the one-on-one available at a smaller school. Is he/she the kind who will go out and turn over stones looking for something great? Or would he/she do better with an advisor/mentor to point the way? Not that the alternatives are binary, but it helps to realistically understand what your kid will or will not do on his/her own initiative. </p>
<p>It helps even more if your child has that kind of self-awareness.</p>
<p>Agree with Calmom that accommodations can often be made, even if it’s not in the official guidelines. This was something S1 spent a lot of time discussing with departmental advisors and profs before deciding on a school. Lower-level prerequisites can be waived and replaced with upper-div courses. Some schools will require testing; S1 had one prof who invited him to his office and they spent three hours talking shop. The general academic advisor is not going to be the one who makes or encourages this to happen; it is up to the student. S found departmental advisors at the flagship and at his school to be extremely knowledgeable and helpful in this regard.</p>
<p>I’m going to a small christian college where I’d definitely be in the top 5% of students in terms of tests scores and GPA, but I’m used to it: I go to a small christian high school where I am also in the top 5%. I’d have to say that I’m glad I go to my school rather than a rigorous prep academy because I have experience working with all types of people. I am to go-to homework help person, and I think I’ve grown academically tutoring as much as actually doing the assignments. There’s also a lot less pressure to compete–I am considered as a whole person (an athlete, musician, a friend, and a student) and not just by my test scores. I could never stand going to a place like Stanford or Caltech, or even just an Honors college at a State U, because I would hate being around so many people who thought like me. I need the less “academic” people to balance my personality out, and to remind me that there’s more to life than school.</p>
<p>“But the “better” prep school experience isn’t just about size of peer group. It’s also about tiny LAC-style roundtable classes, for instance, and the Socratic method. I don’t know of any public school that can afford to put 8-12 students in a typical classroom.”</p>
<p>–>For your reference, I went to a 2000 person public high school (completely “average” - not considered prestigious or competitive at all), and I was in the “Seminar School” program similar to a school-within-a-school atmosphere, where there were about 20 kids in each of my classes for language arts/english and social science. We constantly were divided up into 3-4 groups of 4-6 students and talked in seminar style using the Socratic method (and then would gather together in a larger all-class setting as well). There are absolutely programs out there in public high schools that could be even better than the prep school experience. Same argument goes for the prestigious ivy leagues compared to the large state schools. There is no reason to generalize all state schools as subpar to the ivy league experience.</p>
<p>^Great, I’m glad your high school experience was so intimate! I went to the acknowledged “best academic” public high school in my state, and it wasn’t unusual to have larger classes pushing 30.</p>
<p>While generalizing public vs. private HS is as problematic as generalizing state U vs. Ivy, there’s plenty of “reason” to do so–because in general, the comparisons are true. But of course some public high schools have well-funded special programs, just as UVA and UNC-Chapel Hill are among the very few public state universities that guarantee to meet full financial need (for everyone, not just in-state students).</p>
<p>That’s not the case with several high school classmates who felt the academic rigor at our State/City universities…even those in honors paled greatly in comparison to that of our urban public magnet high school. </p>
<p>Most of them were STEM majors* and included in this group were many kids whose high school GPAs were in the C range. It was one key reason why they opted to transfer up to schools like Reed, Columbia, CMU, and Cornell after a year or two. Not only did they enjoy the more interesting academic environment and greater rigor, their grades didn’t take much of a dive at all as they all graduated with honors level grades(3.5+). </p>
<ul>
<li>1 pre-med and a slew of CS/CE majors with some other STEM and a few econ majors thrown in.</li>
</ul>
<p>I had a thread on this last spring, but I found academic fit and happiness at a midsized (10000 UG, 4000 grad) state u where I was easily in the top 5%. I was in psychology, too, and my research work in undergrad has netted me 4 peer reviewed publications so far, with hopefully more to come, and I worked with some rather well regarded people in my area, whose names and excellent mentorship has already opened doors for me.</p>
<p>As for grad school being easier than undergrad, definitely NOT in psych PhD programs, esp</p>
<p>I had a thread on this last spring, but I found academic fit and happiness at a midsized (10000 UG, 4000 grad) state u where I was easily in the top 5%. I was in psychology, too, and my research work in undergrad has netted me 4 peer reviewed publications so far, with hopefully more to come, and I worked with some rather well regarded people in my area, whose names and excellent mentorship has already opened doors for me.</p>
<p>As for grad school being easier than undergrad, definitely NOT in psych PhD programs, especially applied programs where you have to learn a huge clinical skill set on top of learning and doing research. I was ultra busy and involved in undergrad (two majors, minor, clinical volunteering, sorority, ton of research), but it was cake compared to this year. I seriously, seriously doubt any undergrad could replicate this, if only because they can’t ethically touch the clinical component much at all.</p>
<p>Thanks Calmom. I enjoyed that. I think the general tone of this thread has convinced me that it may a good thing that my son didn’t choose one of the elite schools that accepted him.</p>
<p>I think this actually supports the academic rigor at elite schools compare to the State Universities.</p>
<p>Stanford has to come up with special easy classes to satisfy the need of their athletes (I don’t agree with this ethically and that might be the only reason why out of all elite schools only MIT/Caltech don’t have good sports team).</p>
<p>On the other hand at state universities any course would have satisfied the need of the athletes.</p>
<p>POIH, surprised you didn’t quite the Geico commercial – “So easy, even a caveman can do it.” Your comment is an insult to students, athletes, and those who do both.</p>
<p>Before I went to professional school I was all set to go to a local school–it had given me a big scholarship & it had a night program that I thought I wanted. Before making a final decision I went and sat in a class there; the prof spent most of the class period trying to adequately answer some ditz girl’s stupid question, something she simply could not understand. I was about to tear my hair out. I thought, “I could not sit through several years of this!” So I went to prestigious school… much much happier. But for undergrad, if you are talking about a fairly well-respected big state U, the fact is there will be such a RANGE of people there and a RANGE of clubs, activities, etc., that (with a little work) an above-average student can find groups of like-minded students. Going to small prestigious school will just make it that much easier, though, and campus is much more interesting when the bottom of the bell curve is not quite so far to the left. On the other hand, if you are talking about sort-of not-quite-the-best big state u in your state, I would spend LOTS of time walking around and sitting in class before I committed, to be sure it feels right and won’t drive your child crazy. I have found that going to school with people who were smarter than me is like playing against a better team–it really does improve your game, since you kind of rise to what is necessary.</p>
<p>And, our big state school ALSO had “easy” classes for the athletes, and everyone knew what they were. On the other hand, these athletes devote SO much time to their sport (which few people realize or appreciate) that one can hardly blame them. By and large they really don’t have the time to take harder classes that they might like to take. Believe me, there were LOTS (if not most) of classes at our big state U that a good % of the athletes couldn’t handle because of their other commitments. But that’s another issue…</p>
<p>"On the other hand at state universities any course would have satisfied the need of the athletes. "
that insulting comment shows how little you do know about most public Universities in this country, and the students attending them, and reveals how much of a narrow minded elitist snob you truly are.</p>
Oh, please. The only type of discussion that would be considered “non-elitist” is patting everyone on the back and reassuring them that no matter what school their darling child attends, they will learn as much as possible and be intellectually challenged, so don’t lose any sleep over trading academics for $$. Which might be true for a few cases, but in general, there’s a real tradeoff–in many more cases, though, the tradeoff can be minimized enough to be worthwhile. It’s a pity that concrete discussion of how to navigate these tradeoffs has been lacking in this thread.</p>
<p>[Note: The above paragraph does NOT apply to any poster on this thread who could possibly be construed to disagree with me. Nor is it a blanket refutation covering any poster who could possibly be construed to agree with me. There are plenty of people who have pointed out the benefits of initially questionable “academic fit” schools, and I fully respect–even agree with!–their opinions; also some whose generalizations I’ve tried to distance myself from, though they are ostensibly on my “elitist” side of the debate.]</p>
<p>Psych - Applied psychology is closer to science than to social science, IMO, and clinical closer to health professions than liberal arts. But you would know better than me.</p>
<p>“On the other hand at state universities ANY [your choice of word, not mine] course would have satisfied the need of the athletes.” </p>
<p>ANY COURSE? SO YOU THINK THAT AN ATHLETE AT UCB, OR MICHIGAN, OR TEXAS , OR UVA, COULD EASILY HANDLE ANY ADVANCED QUANTUM PHYSICS COURSE BECAUSE THAT CLASS IS SO DUMBED DOWN AND SO MUCH LESS CHALLENGING THAN IT WOULD BE AT ANY IVY?
AND YOU DON’T GET WHAT AN INSULT THIS IS TO STUDENTS WHO ATTEND A STATE U?
Your understanding of the English language is very weak. I suggest you devote your time to reading US newspapers extensively for the next few years, and then come back when you understand the language, and all its nuances better. Because you sure don’t understand it now .You do insult people with your flawed reasoning, tendency to jump to narrow, illogical conclusions that justify your own biases, and lack of linguistic skill in English… Better yet, ask your smart D at MIT how she would interpret this sentence. </p>
<p>"On the other hand at state universities any course would have satisfied the need of the athletes. "</p>
<p>Hopefully she can open your eyes, but I doubt it…</p>
<p>^^There’s no evidence whatsoever of state universities’ practices wrt athletes. In any case, what does the Stanford list’s existence actually say? That some courses at Stanford are easier than others–true at ANY college or university in the world, much less the United States.</p>
<p>“That some courses at Stanford are easier than others–true at ANY college or university in the world”</p>
<p>Exactly, but that is not what POIH said, is it? He chose to use the word “any”, instead of “some”, which, as you know, makes all the difference in the world to the meaning of that sentence.
Hence my suggestion that he do a lot of outside reading to get a much better grip on the use of the English language. Because too many of his posts have shown a clear lack of understanding of English.</p>
<p>And I “shouted” in the hope that he will better understand his poor choice of words, and how insulting the resulting sentence was, 'cause he doesn’t seem to understand that up until this point.</p>
</p>