Academic levels between schools

Prep School Admissions Prep School Parents
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So husband and I are having a discussion about academic levels between schools. I don’t know if anyone can answer this unless you’ve had the same kid at multiple schools - which obviously can’t happen. I don’t even know if I’m asking the right question, but it’s a niggle of concern for me so I’d appreciate any insight.

Daughter is a good student and at the top of her current private middle school. But the bar isn’t particularly high. Going to a top tier BS will be a bit of a shock (but a welcome one, she wants to be surrounded by more like-minded peers). It won’t crush her soul when she’s not the smartest kid in the room.

However, I’m concerned that she’ll get a little lost in the shuffle at a big school like Andover and she’ll be closer to the middle of the academic pile as far as GPA goes. I thought that she’d do better at a smaller, more sporty school, like Deerfield. Husband is convinced that if she’s in the middle (or bottom) academically at Andover, then she will also be in the academic middle (or bottom) at somewhere like Deerfield.

Is he right? Is the academic level at these schools roughly similar?

Daughter is ranking her top choice of school with a thousand different things that are important to her including no Saturday classes, dorm set up, electives, class size, uniform requirements, cell phone reception, location, (which is exactly the right thing for her to do) etc but for academic rigour and how she’d rank amongst her peers (that criterion isn’t on her radar), do I assume that it’s similar amongst the acronym schools?

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Yes, despite the hair-splitting you read here, the academic level at most of the schools discussed on this forum is about the same. You need to go much further down the list before academics would be a relevant distinguishing feature.

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I have not had kids at either school, but I don’t think there’s a huge difference between those two schools. So I’m with your husband on this one.

I have had kids at different levels of prep schools, but that was a real difference in level, reflected in the student body. With Andover and Deerfield you are comparing two schools ranked in the top 10 of most selective boarding schools. And among those schools there isn’t a huge difference.

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I will restate what I said on another thread.

Asking whether Deerfield is less academically rigorous than Andover is akin to asking which Kardashian sister is the least wealthy.

Regardless, the decision about which fine BS to attend is one best asked after M10, as the schools have a habit of making the decision for you.

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OK. Well, that was a very clear response from three parents.

I’ll take that data set off my reasons to differentiate between the schools then. Clearly it’s a moot point until M10 anyway. She may well not get a choice of school. Hopefully she gets at least once school!

Thank you

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2 parents. I’m a fairly recent alum.

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Our favorite alum. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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Oops. Sorry.

Husband is also alum so I appreciate his insight but that was a loooooong time ago.

Thank you

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And yes. We are fully aware of this. Which is why we, as parents, are carefully pointing out the benefits of ANY of the schools she might attend. Including being positive about her current school, should she need to stay there next year.

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Perhaps one way to tease out the fine distinctions between these two schools is to look at the academic offerings across different subjects. My D22 applied to Andover a couple of years ago and we were blown away by the number/levels of math courses offered.

Another way is to find out whether there are differences in pace for same/similar courses. For example, among “top” UK secondary schools, a few schools go through the material (in math and science) much faster than their peers.

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To my earlier point, a distinction with no difference. Both offer courses beyond MVC. In fact most schools most often mentioned on this site will have options of independent study if the curriculum is exhausted, and will often have instructors with PhDs in the field to lead the individualized plan.

Now there are some real difference that will apply to only a handful of students. E.g. if you have a burning desire to learn Arabic, go to Deerfield; Russian or Japanese, go to Andover. Otherwise, academically at least, you’re splitting hairs.

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That’s not a concern that I have at any of these schools in any subject.

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No personal experience with either school, but I do have one friend who has had kids at both and his take is very much that it is easier to stand out at Deerfield. His take was that Andover is basically a college and unless your kid is extremely advanced it is not a great place academically, unless you are fine accepting being ‘average’ (which his kid was not). And there was very little to no handholding for the students so you have to be extremely mature as they expect kids to handle pretty much everything on their own. And the campus is big with kids coming and going so you may not even know half of the people on campus. The kid had scheduling issue that was a school screw up and impossible to fix, etc. Sports not great and no help to balance with academics. So younger kid went to Deerfield. While classes are not any easier, they do a better job placing you at the right level, and coaches even get involved to make sure your academic load is manageable when you are also playing varsity sport. And it is not a sign of failure if you are not in highest level classes, in fact the opposite, many kids are happy taking easier load and throw their time into other things. A lot more oversight and hand holding over the students in general, and guiding their path. And a lot more fun along the way, if you can navigate the social scene that can get intense and a bit cliquish in some grades. That is one family’s take, and it may well be unique to them, but for them, the kid at Deerfield has had much better BS experience than the Andover kid, and they were/are quite similar.

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Speaking from personal experience, DS is a current Senior at Andover, and a recruited swimmer at Ivies. While academic was top priority when choosing BS, the caliber of the varsity swimming is the extra fit DS was looking for. Luckily he did find the perfect balance between academic and sport at Andover. My advice for the parents is to do a thorough research regarding which aspects of a particular BS will play into your child’s strength academic, extra curriculum and environment wise then weighing all the pros and cons before choosing BS to attend. As we know that all the top BS are great, it is the tailored made difference to your child that will made the great fit you are looking for.

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Really interesting conversation – thanks to everyone for sharing thoughts!

As a mom with one kid in BS now who looked at all “top tier” schools last year, and one kid applying to BS now (all “non-top-tier” schools), and two other kids getting educated elsewhere, I’m not an expert, but have given this much thought. Happy to share, knowing that some will disagree with our experience.

There are a few axes that come to my mind when comparing academics.

    1. The rigor: how rich is the content and how deeply are the students encouraged to think and learn for themselves.
    1. The homework load: How many hours a day outside of class do students spend studying. Note this is NOT the same thing as rigor. In fact, I am of the belief that there is a law of diminishing marginal utility (and at a certain point, total utility) once you get too high in the daily hours of homework. (Setting aside even softer issues like “happiness” and “joy,” from a purely rigor perspective, spending 5 hours a day on homework can often mean less depth and space to think and process.). (Related: how many hours are in-class hours versus homework hours – not all schools have the philosophy on how much you learn where – in class versus on your own.)
    1. The faculty: how good are they?
    1. The students: how smart are they? Are there kids who will challenge your kid to be their best self? If Harkness is used, then it would make sense that parents would care a lot about the academic level of the kids sitting around that table, right?
    1. Curriculum: What classes are available, and will actually be taken by your kid? (related: what about extra-curricular learning opportunities?)
    1. Culture: What is the academic culture? Are (all) kids super engaged in classes? Or certain types, and if so, is your kid that type? Is there any negative stereotype associated with engagement? (I would love to think that these BS kiddos are all super supportive and engaged, but I don’t believe that’s the case.) Are kids collaborate or competitive? Are kids free to fail (meaning give wrong answers? open their mouths when they aren’t 100% sure?)
    1. Support systems: Do kids fall through the cracks and if so, how/why? (academically, socially, emotionally, etc etc…). Different schools have very different philosophies of support. The 2 main approaches – two ends of a spectrum I suppose – could be described as “help is there but you have to seek it” and the other is “we surround your kids so they don’t fall through the cracks.” Some schools are openly one end of that scale and some are the other, and some schools start freshman out at one and then they progress through to the other.

So the question about whether a kid would be in the “middle of the pack” at Andover and Deerfield alike is hard to answer. (I will try to set aside the debate about whether one is in the “middle of the pack” or “top of their class” is something that really matters.)

PA and DA are similar in admissions stats, so theoretically, the kids will be “equally smart.” On points 1-4, one could argue they are similar (with maybe some variance in point 2). Points 5-7, though, there are differences, and they may well be quite meaningful and might impact where a kid will land in the pecking order. But more important than the pecking order, I would argue, would be the impact these points would have on the human being. And how well a person is doing as a human being will often drive someone’s success. In other words, solve for the person and you solve for the student.

I’ll go a step further in this conversation and add in perhaps a more relevant question: what about the difference between a “top tier” school and a “second tier” school?

I think the prevailing assumption is that points 1-4 would be vastly different in this case, completely changing the equation. Without going point by point, I would suggest that points 1-4 are NOT the big differentiators that people might think (point 2 again being perhaps an exception worth calling out). You would be amazed at the number of faculty who have crossed over and taught at a number of these BS – both “top” and “non-top” tier schools. And you’d be surprised by the amazing, insightful, smart students that fill many boarding schools.

(I’ll take this moment to call out a caveat here on the “smart students are everywhere” idea. It is our experience that there exists a small subset of students who are very unusually gifted; the type who are headed for unusual levels of achievement in a specific path, like a kid on their way to a nobel prize in physics who has been identified as a truly unusual specimen of brilliance. I don’t mean the run-of-the-mill kiddo who has all A’s and is a few years ahead in math. Those truly unusually gifted students, I think, might actually really benefit from being in a place with other students like them, if only for social development reasons, and to get a critical mass of kids like that you might need to be at a place like a PA or PEA. But most of us have “normal-smart” kids who are just high achievers and looking to be in room of other really smart kids – and that can be found at a LOT of BS.)

And then curriculum – while it does vary, it does not necessarily have a positive correlation with “tier-dom.” (In fact, we’ve found sometimes quite the opposite. Which is why “fit” matters way more than prestige.). Points 5-7 I think we all agree vary by school and are important to investigate to find fit.

So if you are asking if your kid will be in a pool of the “same level of smartness” at DA as she would be at PA, the answer is “probably yes.”

If you are asking if she will perform as well at both, the answer is “I don’t know” because it depends on how your daughter performs best.

If you are asking if it matters where she is in the pecking order, I would say “not to me unless she is low on the totem pole because her soul isn’t right” but also: “probably it does to other people who don’t share my values on that issue.”

If you are asking where your daughter would be happiest and would therefore thrive as a person and thus as a student, I would steer you away from any debate in your mind about points 1,3,4 and have you focus on the other points.

You didn’t ask, but I would suggest as a free bonus for your time: all of this largely applies to the top 25-50-ish (just approximate) schools.

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I would also add that every parent and many kids think they will be in the top 10% when they begin the BS process. 90% of them are incorrect. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t have a great experience.
Larger schools often have deeper curriculums, smaller schools can have tighter communities. The choices are vast. If you really need something specific (like the swimmer who is going to an Ivy) or something else, then vet carefully.
Otherwise, be happy where you land.

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Wow. Thank you. I knew that I wasn’t really asking the right questions in the beginning. @Calliemomofgirls That’s a really helpful categorization and has provided me with some things to noodle over between now and M10.

I absolutely agree with the truly gifted kids needing to find a peer group and culture which allows them to explore their passions. That’s not what we are dealing with in our instance.
And as far as where she falls on the academic totem pole, I’m not interested in her class rank because either we, or she, cares about that. I want to ensure that she doesn’t feel like she’s at the bottom. I want her to be studying and learning because she’s enjoying it and interested (although I’m sure there’ll be a fair share of stuff that she has to learn even though she isn’t interested!) I don’t want her to have the added pressure of feeling like she has to get better grades in order to keep off the ‘wrong’ deans list. I’d like to think that she has enough time to try new things, go write for the school magazine, join a club, volunteer for some events, go bake something with the dorm parent etc. If a core group of kids are going above and beyond with studying and homework, then she’ll feel like she has to do the same.

Now a question about culture and your #6 above. Are kids collaborative or competitive? How would we find something out like that? We’ve tried the direct ask route. Kiddo has zoomed with at least two kids from every school on her list (students were chosen by sports coach and then put in contact with daughter). EVERY SINGLE KID told her that the culture was collaborative and supportive. Now it’s great that they apparently feel that way, but as a newbie, how do we get to see the nuances of the classroom vibe especially since it looks like we won’t be able to visit campus at all?

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@MacJackAttack
We didn’t get revisits last year, and while we did visit in the fall of 2019, it’s a very different experience to be revisiting, admission letter in hand. Also, we visited and interviewed at 12 schools in 6 days, assuming we would have revisits.

So I will say to your fantastic follow up question: I don’t know. Because as you say, “everyone” is “collaborative.” I mean, people aren’t jerks. And there will be some group work at every school. right? So how do we really get our fingers on the pulse of the culture and tone?

One thought: I’ve seen a few schools start to invite applicants to sit into classes (virtually). I think this would be a GREAT way to get some insight. It could show culture, rigor, depth of commentary, social constructs, etc… So, if the school is happening in person in March, that might be a helpful offering. I hope more schools do it.

Also, I have learned to ask flat out about average nightly homework hours because that was important to me for DD3 (this year’s applicant. last year’s applicant DD2 had a bit of a different attitude: the harder the better! Hooray! But I’ll tell you what – it’s easy to have that attitude on the winter side of M10!). This year, any school that was above 3 hours on an average (non-exam) night for a freshman, we eliminated. I figured we needed to believe people when they tell us who they are. 4-5 hours every single night wouldn’t work for DD3 long term. (and I don’t think it’s necessary for a 13 year old, IMHO).

So while I don’t have a good answer for you, I will say that as a mom I have switched from making sure that my daughter will be challenged enough and have enough opportunities and rich offerings to making sure that she will have the space to live a life she loves and be silly and young and make close friends and find her voice and be OK with imperfection. In other words, the rigor is already covered in this new world called boarding school (in the vast majority of schools discussed here). I almost feel silly that I was checking for that during last year’s process. I was protecting all the things that 8 years of having my daughter in a decent public school trained me to protect, and it turned out to be the wrong things in the BS sphere. (And to be clear: there ARE things that need protecting, such as time/space for exploration, laughter, joy, close friendships, etc…)

I would go as far as to say: I almost wish my DD3 could sit and have lunch with students in the dining hall on a typical school day or spend a night in the dorms at all of her schools and then just pick the one where she felt most at home.

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I agree that 4 hours of homework everyday is too much for a 14 year old, but I also know that the same workload takes different time for different kids. Some just finish everything much faster and then have time for other things. Some may take longer than 5 hours without sacrificing quality.

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Yes, be careful when you hear anecdotal stories of homework load. Time management skills are the key to managing the workload, and not all kids have them. I vividly remember a friend talking about Hotchkiss kids having to work till 4 am to get homework done sophomore year. (Untrue! My son had 2 1/2 hours, and was done by 10 pm). The 4 am student was also true, but was a kid who was struggling for several reasons, and who left school at the end of that year. So try to figure out what’s generally true, true for most.