<p>Should I go apply to a school that has excellent academic prestige, or a school that is less pretigious but I would think is a better fit for me?</p>
<p>I'm pretty set on applying to Bowdoin, Bates, Wesleyan, etc, where I think I'll be pretty happy and fit in(DIII sports, close to home, small classes, tight knit campus, etc)</p>
<p>But my dad wants me to look at like Brown and Cornell and Georgetown because they are supposedly better schools. He thinks I'm "aiming too low", whatever. </p>
<p>Honestly there are a few highly LACs with as much or more "prestige" than the schools your Dad wants you to look at. Dartmouth, Amherst, and Williams all come immediately to mind. If your Dad has issues with these tell him that they have some of the best grad placement of any schools out there and are also top feeders into jobs.</p>
<p>I transferred from Columbia to Dartmouth for the "community" and it was the best decision I made. I chose it over Brown, Duke, and Harvard for the "community" and even after graduation those aspects you describle (community, small classes, tight knit, etc) are what I love the most about my experience. I think those are very real reasons to choose a LAC.</p>
<p>Bowdoin and Wesleyan are as prestigious as Brown or Georgetown. Maybe not to the average joe, but certainly to people who know universities. I actually love Bowdoin and Wesleyan is awesome too. Check out other awesome LACs too, like Middlebury, Amherst, Grinnell, Carleton, Pomona etc...</p>
<p>Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore are among the three best colleges ever, make sure that your dad takes a look at college grad placement rankings and such</p>
<p>
[quote]
Bowdoin and Wesleyan are as prestigious as Brown or Georgetown. Maybe not to the average joe, but certainly to people who know universities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, if the world was filled with people who sat down everyday and logged onto CC and looked at all of the numbers and rankings and reports and etc. etc. then I could agree that the statement above could negate existing "prestige".</p>
<p>But we don't live in that world.</p>
<p>Besides, even for those "people who know universities" which I consider myself to be, I'd say that Brown is head and shoulders above Bowdoin and certainly more prestigious than Wesleyan - with the difference between Georgetown and Wesleyan being more marginal.</p>
<p>Maybe the opinion of the original poster's father has SOME merit, and Alexandre you might consider that it may.</p>
<p>Instead, you, again, use any and every opportunity to try and negate the prestige of certain schools. You are a valiant fighter, but you might look up once in a while to take a closer look at the windmills instead of charging blindly ahead.</p>
<p>In other words, saying "ah your pops is just dead wrong" is less helpful to a person trying to reconcile the aspirations, advice and guidance from one's parents - because that person lives in the "real world" (or as you so gently put it "the average joe" world) NOT the Alexandre "college by Alexandre numbers" world.</p>
<p>So, yeah, in the "average joe" world that 99.99% of us live in, Brown and Cornell are not only more prestigious, they ARE BETTER than the colleges mentioned above. When you can't get 9 out of 10 people to come around to your own way of thinking, perhaps the 9 may possibly have some merit.</p>
<p>wraider, if prestige for your dad equals a large research university, then he needs to better understand what LACs can offer. </p>
<p>If on the other hand he could widen his definition of prestige to mean a highly respected college with wonderful academics and excellent grad school placement, then it seems that Amherst or Williams could satisfy both your and your dad's requirements. Dartmouth, being the Ivy that is most like an LAC, could be a good compromise. </p>
<p>All of these schools are highly selective and difficult to get into. Maybe you should just "export the conflict to the future" and see which ones you get accepted to. </p>
<p>Good luck. If your dad has any questions about the value of LACs, just direct him to the parents board. He'll find many converts there.</p>
<p>Ivy_Grad, I think grad school placement and academic reputation scores speaks for themselves. I never said that wraider should not listen to his father. I never said his father was wrong. I never even said that Bowdoin and Wesleyan were exactly as prestigious and respect as Brown. But the truth of the mater is, Bowdoin and Wesleyan are on par with the likes of Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth and Penn in terms of prestige. They are top 10 LACs, and they deserve the respect of any top 20 or so research university. They certainly earn it from top recruiters and graduate school adcoms. </p>
<p>I can see how you would question my belief that Michigan or Cal are good universities, but I do not see how you can question my defending LACs. I have openly criticized LACs and will continue to do so. But the fact is, Graduate School Adcoms at Harvard and Stanford, corporate recruiters at Goldman Sachs and McKinsey, intellectuals who shape our world etc... respect top 10 LACs as much as they respect top research universities.</p>
<p>Well, I spent a number of years at a top Wall Street "bulge bracket" firm, and during that time, I could recall a sparse number of grads from say the "Top 3" LACs (AWS) (not that these are the colleges we were talking about anyway) but (and here is the point) not a single Bowdoin, Wesleyan or Bates graduate. On the other hand, I can name a bunch of people from Brown, Cornell and Dartmouth ....</p>
<p>I also had a similar experience at my time at Wharton B-School as well (I'm not saying that there weren't ANY grads from Bates, Bowdoin or Wesleyan in my class - there very well may have been) but (and here again is the point) if there were, they were certainly outnumbered by the Brown / Cornell / Dartmouth grads - by a significant margin.</p>
<p>So, in my experience, the proof is in the pudding.</p>
<p>That's where the "prestige" really matters in my book - in the real world.</p>
<p>I worked both at Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs for 4 years...in Europe and in the US and I can tell you that top LACs were held in equal esteem to most elite research universities. And how can you compare schools that graduate 300-400 students each year to schools that graduate 1,000-3,000 students each year? Obviously, you are going to have more students from Ivies than LACs working at IBanks or enrolled in top MBA programs. The Ivies graduate 15,000 undergraduate students annually, including Wharton, the IB factory!!! They also graduate like 3,000 MBA students!!! Do you know how many to the top 10 LACs graduate? About 3,500 students...none of which are MBAs. Clearly, Ivies will outnumber LAC grads 5 to 1, if not more. But that does not mean that LACs aren't respected immensely and that they aren't as prestigious.</p>
<p>Next, I NEVER said that LACs weren't respected. When did I ever say that?</p>
<p>The Top 3 certainly are "elite". But the rest? That is my point of contention.</p>
<p>I just don't share your opinion that they are AS prestigious as the specific colleges WE are talking about (specifically, Brown / Cornell / Dartmouth).</p>
<p>That's my opinion.</p>
<p>Just expressing my view which happens to counter yours (surprise, surprise).</p>
<p>Yes, absolutely shocking! LOL I guess we see things differently! In truth, you are very exclusive...I am more inclusive. I think there are 30 or so amazing universities, mostly equal in quality and reputation...you believe there is more like 15.</p>
<p>and I'm sorry man, but I've just never overheard a conversation where someone said something to the effect of "yeah, not only that BUT he/she also graduated from BATES!"</p>
<p>or </p>
<p>"wow! watch out we got a BOWDOIN grad here! guess we know who the smart one is in our group is!"</p>
<p>now interchange that with any combination of Ivies and, yeah, I have overheard (or heard) such exchanges.</p>
<p>frankly, I think you're more likely to hear,</p>
<p>"Bates? Where is that?"</p>
<p>so what does that prove? nothing really.</p>
<p>BUT, it does comment on "prestige" - which is what we are talking about.</p>
<p>Like I said Ivy_Grad, I am not about impressing those with typical educations. It is about being recognized by those in a position to actually change your live. At the top lvels, there is not difference between the top LACs and the top research universities.</p>
<p>As to your last point, if you and I agree (at a minimum) that those who are "educated" give the top LACs and top research U's the same level of recognition,</p>
<p>than given the fact that the elite research U's ALSO enjoy recognition from the "average joe" AS WELL .... well then...</p>
<p>net / net, all things being equal,</p>
<p>why wouldn't you pick the set of institutions that receives recognition from BOTH "the educated" AND "the average joe"?</p>
<p>in other words, at a minimum, the broader recognition/prestige than, by your own definition, defaults to the set of institutions that receives "broader" recognition?</p>
<p>am i missing something? i mean, we are discussing (as per the thread's original post and title) academic "PRESTIGE" right?</p>
<p>Ivy Grad, I am a food lover. I have had the priviledge of eating at more than 25 of the World's top 100 or so restaurants. Given my passion for restaurants, I will not discuss restaurants with most people because most people have no clue about fine food. I am not being presumptuous or snobby, I am just stating a fact. If I were to say L'Arpege or Maison Troisgros or Louix XV, or Pres D'Eugenie, or Alain Ducasse, or Tru or Inn at Little Washington or Jean Georges, or Gary Danko etc... to most people, they wouldn't know what I am talking about. </p>
<p>Same with universities. The average guy on the street has almost no understanding of universities. Sure, everybody's heard of Harvard, and most have heard of Berkeley, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale. But the average joe probably knows nothing about Brown, Chicago, Dartmouth or Johns Hopkins. Some people may have done a very superficial search or heard a little from others, and from that, established a somewhat faulty opinion of universities. But to me, the opinion of the average person really means nothing. I have respect for their opinions of life and other issues, but on something as obscure as universities (or fine restaurants), I will only care for the opinion of those who really know.</p>
<p>Wraider, sometimes we need to keep peace in our families, and sometimes we need to broaden our horizons.</p>
<p>You can take a number of steps</p>
<p>1) Ignore Dad, but be ready to pay the consequences
2) Try to educate Dad about LACs
3) Take a look at Brown and Dartmouth, the 2 Ivies that share some characteristics with the other schools on your list, see if one or the other is for you, and, if so, apply - you'll make Dad happy and you might even find a better fit for you.</p>
<p>My daughter began her college search with stars in her eyes about Yale (I call it the Harry Potter phenomenon). After a visit to Duke and Davidson, she realized that she liked Duke, but loved Davidson because of size and LACness (except we live in the South, and she really wanted to go out of region to school). Then a few months further along in the process, she visited Dartmouth, and after some reflection decided it was for her.</p>
<p>My point to you is now is the time to start honing your list, and as you do, you will begin to prioritze the things you like about schools - preppiness is more important than size, location is most important to me, I need open curriculum because I want to triple major in nanotechnology, Russian, and medieval literature, I like a very liberal political atmosphere, yada, yada, and you may find that going up or down a little in size or giving a little in location may lead to a better fit. You change and grow during this long, long year, and while you want to figure out what type of school is for you, it is also good to keep a little diversity in the list to accomodate changes in you over the year (and to keep Dad happy ;)).</p>