Admission Factors Outside of Numbers

Applying to College
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<p>Amarkov, you do sound rude, which is why I’ve been having such a problem with you. Disagreeing with me is one thing, but all of your replies seem to seethe with ad hoministic negativity. </p>

<p>Never did I say I deserve to go to an Ivy League. I confess that I have a need for intellectual stimulation, excuse me for wanting, I forgot it was a sin. Another thing you’ve done is implied that everything I’ve said was an attack against people who worked during high school. None of what I said was meant in that fashion, I took the time to point out that it was all completely hypothetical and the only thread that it had to a real situation was that I was the model for the under achieved Student B. I am completely aware that I am capable of being very much like most to all of the other applicants, only with a lower rank numerically. </p>

<p>You seem to indirectly assume that I am arrogant, so allow me to oblige you and put your mind at ease by detailing that fact. </p>

<p>Yes, I do believe I am, for the most part, capable of more than many of my peers. I feel as if I have a perspective that, while possibly not entirely unique to myself, is rare among the varied views. I like to write, so I have subtly exaggerated various points throughout the discussion either in favor of one side, or against the favor of the other side. I don’t like to be questioned when the other person is only asking to try and prove that they have a bigger dick because they are superior to me in some, or presumably, all ways. Yes, you’re right, I would not enjoy serious conversations composing one hundred percent of my time with friends.
No, I will not say I have high grades, I was lazy, negligent and bitter throughout high school because I saw what, to me, was a complete lack of value. No, my perspective, regardless of how particular, may not be right, and never will I address it as completely and totally appropriate for all situations at all times. No, I don’t hate people who have high grades out of envy; though I do envy them, I have an amount of respect for their willingness to put forth the effort required to appear successful. No, I’m not constantly referring to the male genitalia because I’m insecure; I’m commenting on it because it is the best and most recognizable comparison for the situation that seems to be or have been occurring. No, I do not want a conversation to be entirely based on my ability to be right all the time or easily persuade everybody that I am correct in my thoughts at all times, that would be boring and lack any merit for the gain or quality I desire in conversation. No, I’m not unique, I often look at my similarities with other people and continue on with my day holding a subtle disdain for myself that is borne of what is no more than a chance happening. Yes, you’re right about everything you’ve said, and no I don’t belong in any of the Ivies because apparently this is how I respond when questioned. The response I am referring to is of course the belligerent and obviously sarcastic form in which I return your sentiments, which is infused with just enough realism to make people question which parts were honest and which parts were made up just to spite you.</p>

<p>For anyone that is not Amarkov reading this that might be appalled and/or disgusted, I agree, quite frankly (and sincerely) I regret having said all of this, but I really don’t enjoy it when people talk down to me or treat me as an inferior just because my ideas and beliefs or feelings are different. You have my honest apology.</p>

<p>As for you, Amarkov, in the event that you were in fact not intentionally attempting to be condescending, I feel that I should extend an apology to you as well. It’s come to my last semester of high school as well as the point in my life where I start to question my future. Unfortunately the answer was a vision of my dreams of the life I wanted slowly slipping away from me into some abyss where they would never be realized and I would be stuck in this small town forever. It’s at that point, on the edge of my future, where it is very possible for me to either succeed or sink into a mediocre existence. Being here has given me both a sense of foresight and a regrettable sense of hindsight which has made me dreadfully aware of my less than adequate academic past; it has also put me on edge and less positively responsive to certain issues or arguments. </p>

<p>I understand the intent of all of this --even the advice that I am/was willfully attempting to self sugar coat-- was to help. So again, I apologize for my outburst, but I think it is better left said than stewing and fermenting to be passed on to some poor, undeserving bystander. (Not, of course, that anyone on this forum is deserving.)</p>

<p>Apologies for stepping out of line and responding with anger again.
The original intent of this thread was simply to answer-- or theorize about-- the question “Can essays and a good interview, amongst other promising non-numerical factors, help to soften the blow of poor academics?”</p>

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<p>Could this OP be pmvd/innovativeboxx under another new screen name? Hint-- the “condescending” reference.</p>

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<p>I assure you I am not one of those people. Any striking or unfortunate resemblance is purely coincidental.</p>

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<p>@Shadowkitt: My point was that you should look a little harder. There are plenty of schools that are not as selective as Ivies but which still provide an intellectually stimulating experience. Many of them will be more inclined to give you a break for your lower GPA. Prestige is not everything. Not all nonselective schools are arge and impersonal.</p>

<p>Have you considered that a school like Harvard, which so values doing well in the kind of schoolwork you find “worthless,” may not be right for you? I don’t mean this to be insulting–but class rank is probably one of the most important factors in Ivy admissions. That seems to be a priority at odds with yours.</p>

<p>To answer your original question, yes it can–but only so far. And the Ivies attract a wealth of applicants from every sort of background who excel in /every/ way. Do you not see why they would be inclined to choose those students over you?</p>

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The erroneous assumption you are making here is that the “smart people” are also not “innovative.” amarkov made an excellent point: schools like Harvard can find plenty of applicants who are innovative and interesting AND have top stats. At that point, they don’t much care whether Applicant X wants to be Robin Hood or Sailor Moon.</p>

<p>Believe it or not, Harvard gets more Student C’s than it can admit after accounting for predetermined slots like athletic recruitment. I’m sorry that your high school doesn’t seem to have many of them, but nationally and internationally, tons exist.</p>

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The person utilizing the materials for a side project while also maintaining stellar numerical performance in school–thus displaying time management skills as well as achievement.</p>

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Then you had better learn how to think about the choice as something other than settling. Think of Earlham as “like” Harvard, because the intellectual stimulation is not THAT dissimilar.</p>

<p>The short answer to your OP question is, “NO.” The slightly longer answer would be, “NO… unless you’re URM/recruited/can donate millions to the school.” Some unhooked students do get in on soft factors alone, but those are very very very rare. And for good reason.</p>

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So, so quoted for truth.</p>

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<p>OP-- I couldn’t disagree with you more about everything you’re saying. I’ve watched my S1 bust his butt with schoolwork over the past 4 years ultimately landing in the top 2% of his graduating class this year. He is driven, motivated and has a great work ethic. His SAT’s are stellar. He also has very definite interests that are not school-related. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, the chances of him getting into a school like Harvard are extremely little. There are way too many genuinely qualified students vying for a very limited amount of spots. </p>

<p>Do I think for a minute that a proven unmotivated and underachieving student throughout high school (not even just freshman year as is often the case) should be given an opportunity at one of the nation’s best universities over my son (and countless other motivated high achievers)? Absolutely not. </p>

<p>You may be very intelligent and very creative or whatever… but you do not sound worthy of going to Harvard, sorry :(</p>

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<p>I confess that I have read only the first two pages of this thread so far.</p>

<p>My impression is that if your numbers (GPA/Class Rank/Test Scores) are not in Harvard’s (or any other excellent college’s) “wheelhouse” you probably will not receive the kind of consideration that you seem to think you deserve. Hard work and excellence in the classroom in rigorous courses are what most colleges and universities say they are looking for. When you have done “B-ish” work for whatever reason you are simply not likely to overcome your record through an interview, an essay or even stellar test scores. </p>

<p>On the interview not overcoming grades, I speak from experience as a former alumni interviewer for a top university.</p>

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<p>The respect you seem to crave will come more from demonstrated EFFORT than innate ABILITY.</p>

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<p>I just read the entire thread and was disappointed to not see a direct answer to the opening question.

A great essay or alumni interview won’t erase a B average. Holistic review means the adcoms will look beyond the numbers, not that they will ignore them.</p>

<p>When they debate your application, they will be very consciously aware of your relatively weak numbers; nothing subtle about it.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>^Well said, Sherpa. I was typing when I saw Sherpa’s post.</p>

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<p>Unless you can put up an Oscar winning performance, smart and experienced adcoms from the tippy tops will sense this. Why were you lazy? If the school curriculum is boring, did you pick up other activities outside the classroom? Btw, I’ve seen many “lazy” high schoolers who still have stellar stats despite their “laziness” in the classroom.</p>

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<p>Grades and test scores are significant admissions factors in almost all elite colleges. Holistic evaluation simply means they will also weigh in other factors. If you are low on stats you’ll have to make it up somewhere else. Is it fair if they equate a 3.2 with a 4.0 and then just look elsewhere for the deciding factor? Where is the bias?</p>

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<p>Yes, these students do exist and I’ve seen my share of them, BUT there are also great many students who have the stats and do a LOT of other interesting and creative things. You should browse through the admit threads of the top schools on CC. You can’t hide your head in the sand and pretend the high stats kids are all without other stuff.</p>

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<p>Tippy-tops will reject them both. Less selective schools tend choose the higher stats ones. It is hard to convince people of your superior potential if your lack of drive is apparent and you don’t have other significant accomplishments to support your claim.</p>

<p>Harvard may be your best fit, but it may be a better fit for other applicants. The better matched students get in.</p>

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<p>I haven’t read through this whole thread, but most colleges, at least publicly, have said that they’re willing to accept lower SAT scores but not a lower GPA. Basically, stats-wise, they need some indication that you can perform well academically. </p>

<p>I’ve also read that SAT II’s are becoming increasingly more important, as they involve knowledge of subject matter rather than simply how to game the system. </p>

<p>Bottom line: Statistically, you need to be impressive but not perfect. And there are multiple ways to measure your intelligence. Doing badly on one of those measures won’t kill you, as long as your GPA is up to par.</p>

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<p>“If you believe people do not change, should admissions believe you would be capable of doing the work now to succeed in a top tier college, after rejecting high school assignments?”</p>

<p>This is the fundamental hypocrisy of your argument, Shadowkitt. You earlier said that the same people who are intellectually un-stimulating now will be just as bland in college. Yet you believe that you are exempt from this, and that your grades are not indicative of your future performance? If you can’t be motivated in high school to get the grades, places like Harvard will not take you.
And you can say you’re not trying to be self-righteous, but if so you are not that good at communicating for someone who claims to write a lot, because your words drip with the implication that the “innovative” students are more worthy of spots at Harvard than the ones who did the work.
So to answer your original question, yes, the adcoms will be “biased” in their holistic review of you by your low grades. You have given them no indication (or not enough) that you are really serious about education unfortunately.</p>

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<p>I would like to acknowledge again my deep feelings of regret for having been associated with any of my own words throughout this topic. I feel that the people who caused my partially unwarranted outburst could use a serious, simple and relaxed explanation for why and how I reacted. </p>

<p>I really don’t mind the insults and sarcasm, that much I expect from saying anything in a public forum. The reason I worded my statements so strongly as the night went on was because I felt, and still feel, that for someone to judge my character and call me arrogant or assume that I feel like I deserve anything is crossing a line that no civilized or reasonably intelligent group should have to see crossed. Personally, I don’t have a lot to be proud of; so when the things I do value about myself, namely my writing and personality, are besmirched by people who know nothing more about me than what they have read in one forum, lacking any knowledge about my state of contentment or personal life, I am honestly deeply and offended. I understand fully that if I value my character and writing as much as I profess I do, that I would not have responded the way I did in several instances during the conversation. What’s done is done and I made a bad choice, in more ways than one. I started the thread with high hopes, then it started to devolve more into people telling me I was wrong about everything all the time than an actual discussion. So, with a strange sense of reckless contempt I just let it go further and further in that direction when there were plenty of opportunities for me to turn things for the better. As I said, I made a bad choice and chose the lesser road, for that I am sorry. The one thing that I can not honestly be sorry about is the root resentment I have for the people who, instead of opting to offer some sort of roundabout advice or ignore the topic completely, chose to degrade a random stranger online by smothering the few hopes they had with callous words that held no value beyond simply saying no. As much as I’d like to tell everyone I am okay, and I’ll move on, I’m sort of a passively vindictive kind of guy, so the best I can do is say that I hope the negativity shown comes around and bites back. I know it likely won’t, but that’s where I feel justified in wanting it, so meh. Sorry this all turned out the way it did, I need to better myself to prevent these types of things from happening and I think a few people need to look at things less like a direct assault on their person. (Which I may or may not be excluding myself from.)</p>

<p>As a side note, thank you people who didn’t get caught up in the **** that took place, and a greater thanks should be extended to the people who actually offered decent advice in place of “NO!” or “You suck”, like Haavian and M’s Mother, to name a few. I’m sure if someone were willing to sift through the nonsense they might find some excellent places that could easily act as alternatives to Ivies while still offering intellectually satiating environments.</p>

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I’m not trying to be mean, honest. However: multiple people are telling you that you’re wrong because you are wrong. It is not insulting or offensive to tell someone that they are wrong.</p>

<p>Apply to Harvard if you like, but try to understand that the “bias” against you is actually fair in the grand scheme of things. Many kids like you in personality (not YOU, but with the same hopes and dreams and creativity) have also managed to maintain high stats, so the adcoms have no reason to cut you a break.</p>

<p>I recommend that you start another thread with more detailed stat profile information and what you’re looking for in a college besides intellectual stimulation. Small or large? Urban or rural? What major? What geographic region or weather?</p>

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<p>Eh, I can understand Shadow. I’ve put my foot in my mouth in situations like this before too. It’s ok.</p>

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<p>Shadowkitt, no malice intended here. I was just sharing my perspectives and some facts with you. It is not my wish to kill your dream. You should hold on to your dream, but armed with facts that are uncluttered by emotion. You may find helpful ideas from the following thread.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/767118-under-3-6-gpa-applying-top-20-parents-thread.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/767118-under-3-6-gpa-applying-top-20-parents-thread.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Shadowkitt - I would just suggest that you open your eyes a bit more to the many great schools that aren’t Harvard. There are quite a few very intellectually rigorous schools that just aren’t as well-known in popular culture. Reed and St. John’s come immediately to mind. I would look for schools that tend toward the intellectual, but have a lower number of applications and a higher acceptance rate. That gives you a much higher chance of getting a good look. Harvard, and the other elite schools, have a tremendous number of applications to deal with, and although they (as do other schools) look for ‘hidden gems’ and unusual cases, but it is foolish not to cast your net as widely as you can.</p>

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<p>@Keilexandra
I’m willing to continue a conversation here if we can keep it at this reasonable and perceived tone of comfort. I think my issue with people telling me I was wrong, is that it wasn’t really a conversation for right or wrong, I had intended for it to be more of a Pros and Cons of either side conversation. It’s terribly frustrating to see something you built or had plans for employed for a purpose that is not what you had hoped. Imagine creating a beautiful painting and later finding out it was the spark of some atrocious war. To a lesser scale, that is how I saw this thread. </p>

<p>Anyways, I’d like to abandon Harvard as a common term in any following posts, we should just refer to the top schools as top schools. Honestly, there is no particular connection that I wished to draw from that specific school, it just happened to be an easily accessible example that everybody could connect with. Unfortunately it seems as if people got caught up in separating Ivies from wonderful high class schools and that added to negative energy swirling around these ideas. </p>

<p>As for starting another thread with more detailed stats, I’d rather not, I feel enough people have seen my inadequacies here, they don’t need more physical proof. I can tell you that I would happily continue on with a civilized discussion about anything related to the original idea of the forum. Maybe not even so much “Can good essays +etc. overcome lesser numbers?”, perhaps something more like, “What can excellent essays and other promising soft factors do for you in terms of admissions to schools that offer some form of stimulation and focus less on the rigors of academic a student’s past?”</p>

<p>To help people understand where some of my discomfort with grades and other numerically detrimental facets of my record I can certainly clear that up so I don’t seem like some ambiguous unknown that nobody is able to theorize on because they have zero information. (All of which is outside of the previous explanations, which were more superficially satisfying.) To be completely candid, I started high school with no idea where I was going or what I was doing. I had no interest in a college of academic loftiness. I was the kid that never had to study, and could still pass everything with at least a low A. Sadly, that became some sort of fixation in my mind that led to my thinking I didn’t even need to pay attention in class, which as you know led to where I am now. In the summer of my Junior year, I changed priorities dramatically, I went from wanting some sort of medical career, to wanting to do something I had always been sort of good at but never had any interest in, which is writing. So, basically, here I am, waiting to hear back from colleges, feeling as if I completely wasted my high school years on bitterness for my self inflicted failure, realizing it’s too late now. Even knowing one or two years of a smaller school, before a transfer, is completely reasonable, it just lacks the same feeling, and I would feel like a joke. Hope this sheds some light on why I am the way I am and clears up any cloudiness about my stature in terms of grades.</p>

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<p>@PaperChaserPop
Thank you, I might read further into these forums later.</p>

<p>@nemom
I’m kicking myself atm, because I have the application and all kinds of wonderful literature from St.John’s (Assuming Maryland/New Mexico and not the Christian one, right?) just sitting here with me. I was having trouble getting the teacher recommendations because I felt horrible having to ask certain teachers to write as many letters as I needed-- coming from the fact that only like, two of the schools I applied to didn’t ask for them. I really like what they say about their college and courses, but they are a bit heavily priced with a less than hopeful (from the looks of it) financial aid program.</p>

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<p>

Considering the fact that you started this thread and referenced your own achievements thus far as a discussion point, I find it slightly ironic that you are offended when people give you negative feedback. </p>

<p>I’m not sure what the “original purpose” you intended this thread to have, but plenty of posters have contributed meaningful advice and experience to your dilemma. Numerous posts have held the same message; at top tier schools they do not need to “take a risk” with an under performing high school student who shows possible “potential”. They have an abundance of applicants who both have stellar numbers and show great potential, and not even every single applicant in this category is accepted. When the admissions officers consider your application holistically, the numbers (Standardized test scores, GPA/Class rank and Transcript) still remain one of the most, if not the most, significant factor in your ultimate decision.</p>