Admission Factors Outside of Numbers

Applying to College
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<p>Shadowkitt, you are asking the wrong question. Sure, apply to your dream schools–but the decisions that you made in HS will impact your chances at those schools, and it’s important to be realistic about that. Write the best essays that you can–and also apply to several match/safety schools that are tolerable (learn to like or love some of them, even) based on your stats. Maybe the University of North Texas isn’t the right school for you, but maybe it actually has a decent program for X major. Don’t dismiss any schools based on hearsay.</p>

<p>FA is a major factor as well, and you should do “lurker” research on CC for the excellent advice in the archives. St. John’s is known for being intellectual, offbeat, and accepting of “unmotivated” HS students.</p>

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<p>so I there are a couple of reasons people are treating you disrespectfully or just rude in general. first of all you talk in a pretty intellectual and gramatically accurate way. dont bother dude, this is CC. it only makes you look pompous and arrogant which is percisely what people see you as. sure you like writing and stuff, but people reading these boards spend their entire day reading homework and textbooks, they dont want to bother reading more writing like that when they dont need to. also, i think this board is filled with overachievers who have high grades AND high extracurriculars. therefore, they feel insulted when you ask if an essay can make a large difference because they see it as an attack on themselves and makes their OWN hard work meaningless. </p>

<p>overall, i think most people are still right in saying low grades and test scores will NOT make up for an essay. you say that you’re not expecting this to turn into some gangbang on you, but in all honesty, most people are giving their opinion and it seems pretty accurate. your probably a little upset since thats not what you want to hear. you want to do a pro-con kind of discussion to make urself feel better, you know it, i know it, we all know it. just don’t have high hopes, make sure you have safeties and matches, and good luck</p>

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<p>piggybank.
well said. very well said.</p>

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<p>A few thoughts…
One thing to consider is degree. Lesser grades and scores can be overcome by a great essay - at some schools and to a certain degree. But not at all schools and not all ‘lesser grades’. As much as possible, admissions committees are looking for people that they think will succeed and fit at their school. Grades/scores/ECs/essays/interviews all add up together to show them who you are - what your story is. A student who struggled mightly in the first few semesters of high school, but suddenly put it all together, a kid who hit a big barrier when he/she attempted to take on too much, a teen who was blindsided by life - all of these are examples of kids whose scores/grades might be less than a school typically expects but who might battle their way in. Your story , at least as presented here, is not extraordinarily compelling, so I would not be surprised if your ‘soft factors’ carry limited weight at the elite schools. They may well matter more at the ‘good schools’.
Second point - don’t scoff so much at the ‘small schools’. A great many very small, very interesting, very creative kids end up in them for all sorts of reasons. You may be surprised by how much you can learn there and how many people like you are there.
Third point - you haven’t learned to work hard at academics. It’s the curse of many a bright kid in an unexciting environment. You may well need a couple of years in a ‘good but not great’ school to learn how to work at the level that the great schools will demand.<br>
Best of luck to you!</p>

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<p>St. John’s College has rolling admissions - if that brochure is calling to you, get in gear and apply now.</p>

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<p>Shadow, as expected, there are frustrated, angry posters around. Don’t worry about them. You’re anxious, and the admissions process is far from perfect in achieving its own goals, and all you should take from all this is that in general it’s what you’ve got to show rather than what you could have that will determine things in admissions. This is true largely of grad school admissions too, in case you care about this.</p>

<p>There’s no guarantee that you’d make it to the school of your choice even given good grades and test scores, so hope for the best and focus on growing over college. I guarantee you that you’re not going to be unique in your plight, and those who share it with you can band together in each others’ company.</p>

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<p>“It’s a difficult call, and I feel it would be some sort of injustice to admit the person who had to obtain their knowledge over the person who could gain more from being at that school.”</p>

<p>I think you already know this, but in typical CC fashion I am going to say it anyway. There is no justice in the college admissions game. Top schools aren’t altruistic, they have their own self-interest in mind. If they were really self-righteous, they would admit people who they could help the most. However, the people that they do admit are the people who can both be helped by the school and can help the school.</p>

<p>One other thing that I saw that kind of upset me, </p>

<p>“Most of my conversations, even with people I call friends, start and end around “Hey, how was your day?” “Good” “That’s good” (three hours later) “Well, see you later” Note, the three hours was of silence. So if you can bear with me and understand where my somewhat jaded opinions are coming from, I would be greatly appreciative.”</p>

<p>Is there truly no one who you can have an intelligent conversation with? I know you never said this, but you have indicated that you are frustrated with the intelligence of your peers. This leads me to believe that are having a difficult time finding people to have intelligent conversation with. Yes, I know that there is bad logic in there, don’t blast me for it, but this is just a vibe that I am getting from you. High school is almost over for you so it is too late to take this into account, but what ever college you go to it is going to be important for you to find people you can have intelligent conversation with. This should not be that hard, I am sure that there are plenty intelligent people outside of the ivy league. At the same time though, I have a hard time believing that you could be that intellectually lonely. I would be shocked if you were not able to assemble a group of fiends who shared similar intellectual interests with you. I have a hard time believing that in your whole high school, there is no one who you would consider to be on your intellectual level, unless you went to an exceptionally small high school.</p>

<p>Even it you go to a top school you still need to appreciate small talk. I’ll give you an example of a conversation I had yesterday. It started out with someone asking the question, “would you rather have your mom be a ■■■■ or ugly”. We had a pretty lengthy conversation on the topic. It then changed into who we thought was the hottest actress/singer/model (I’m sure you could tell this was all guys). Then at the end of the conversation we got into a lengthy discussion of what exactly beauty is. If you could not appreciate the meaningless small talk at the beginning, you would never get to the intellectual conversation at the end.</p>

<p>Alright, so you can understand where I am coming from I go to Stanford. I would rather not include this fact about myself on this thread but at the same time it contributes to my point of view. Just because some one is at an elite school does not mean that they are not still college students. We still have stupid conversations, do stupid things and goof off a ton. On the flip side, we sometimes have intelligent conversation. For example, one Friday night a group of us decided that we were going to watch a movie that was essentially Nietzsche’s “Beyond Good and Evil” except shorter and in film form. We then stayed up till four discussing it. However, the same group of us spent Saturday night playing beer pong.</p>

<p>You seem to have this unrealistic notion that elite schools are filled with spontaneous intelligent conversation, but quite frankly, an intellectual discourse takes a significant amount of time and most of us to not have the time to have intellectual conversations on a regular bases out side of discussion sections. And even so, one of my small classes is horrific. The professor unknowingly suppresses all desire for students to participate. Another reason that we don’t always have intelligent conversation is that we spend a good chunk of our day in lecture, section, writing papers, doing problem sets, and reading. To sum it we spend a good amount of time being smart, so in our free time if you think we chose to discuss our rhetorical analysis of [insert famous author here], then you are greatly mistaken.</p>

<p>Don’t get me wrong, I love it here, but at the same time, you need to be aware of the fact that elite schools are not the bastions of intellectualism that seem you think they are. Yes, we are intellectually curious people, but we like to do other things too.</p>

<p>edit: wow I did not mean to ramble this much. It is funny how I chose to write this in my free time, seems to argue against my point.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/Provost_-_CDS2008_2009_Harvard_for_Web_Clean.pdf[/url]”>http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/Provost_-_CDS2008_2009_Harvard_for_Web_Clean.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
^Here’s a reality check for the OP in regards to the SAT scores and rank of Harvard’s incoming freshmen.</p>

<pre><code> 25th Percentile 75th Percentile
</code></pre>

<p>SAT Critical Reading 690 800
SAT Math 700 780
SAT Writing 690 790 </p>

<p>95% Percent in top tenth of high school graduating class
100% Percent in top quarter of high school graduating class</p>

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<p>I sincerely feel that you’re perhaps just lonely, and need a place to vent/communicate. Why else start this VERY verbose thread? What “pros/cons” are you looking for? That’s why you say you started the thread (in a later post), but that’s not what I read in your first posts. You’ve said SO much and in SUCH circles that it’s hard to pin down your purpose, so that we CAN try and help you. We’ll all come away with something different when we read your “story”. You say you’re a good writer. Let me tell you what I come away with.</p>

<p>You are lazy (you admitted that, and it’s apparent). You can spend all this time at CC, but won’t fill out the St. John’s application. You with Ivies (etc.) would somehow magically SEE just how smart you profess to be. Yet you’ve not taken the steps that will SHOW them this fact. Mind you…I have a daughter in the same position. High standardized scores, a very bright girl. But she elected to spend her time and energies on the arts, and her academic grades SHOW that. She applied to a few Ivies, just in case. Might as well, never know, things happen, good financial aid. But not for a moment does she think they should somehow overlook the effort she gave to her school work. That IS their measure of your effort. Just because one can discuss philosophy for hours, and KNOWS much because they’ve read every book ever written, doesn’t mean they can DO THE REQUIRED WORK. THAT is what colleges want. YOu get up, you attend the lecture, you read the supplemental material, you study on your own, you submit your written work, you take the test, you get the grade. Not many top schools will allow you to receive your grade by sitting in the quad discussing religion, have a professor listen, and dole out an A for intellect. (OK, maybe except for St. John’s…I was actually offended when my D’s guidance counselor mentioned that school). </p>

<p>Let’s say you have a job. You like to write, so you got an entry level job writing blurbs for the company newsletter (“at the conference in Denver this week”…). You think all day, and make notes and read and dream and conjure. But you never turn in a finished product. Do you believe you should receive a salary? “But…I KNOW what happened at the conference, honestly, just ask me! I have the story all put together in my head, I was just too lazy to write it”. </p>

<p>To succeed, you have to produce success. If an Ivy has 9 students with good grades, good GPA, volunteer work, EC participation, leadership…and more - for every seat they have available…it seems more than just a bit self absorbed to think that there is any reason they would listen to the 10th applicant when he/she says…“But I’m smart, I have good intentions, I WANT to come to your school, I’d fit in there, really”. </p>

<p>Can you step back and see how that sounds? Don’t you think there are many many kids who believe that as well? Whether it’s true or not. I’m GLAD your confident. That will hopefully help you. But you must also be realistic. </p>

<p>At my D’s school alone…there are AT LEAST 2 kids with a 36 ACT and AT LEAST 1 with a 2400 SAT. These kids also have 4.0 weighted to 5.0+, AND “all the rest”. They PROVED their worth. You seem to say these numbers are NOT a show of their worth, and that your INTENTIONS/intellect are the same. That’s dissing THESE kids’ efforts, in the same way you feel YOU are being slighted.</p>

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<p>Shadowkitt:
I too strongly agree with all the replies you’re getting (all the ones you disagree with). I give you credit for staying strong and believing in yourself. However, unless you open your mind a bit and evaluate the “real life” information others are giving you, you’ll hurt yourself. Many of us have learned that painful lesson.</p>

<p>I suggest that you make a printout of this thread and store it away for a few years. I’m sure it will be enlightening for you to go back and get a glimpse of your “thought process” as a high school senior.</p>

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<p>i see there’s some sort of argument or something going on here, but i’ll just post what i think concerning the OP’s main topic lol</p>

<p>i got into cornell as a transfer with just under a 3.5 (3.49 to be exact). a lot of people didn’t think i’d get in based on numbers, so i really upped my game and got involved in some good ECs and my essays were really strong. if my essays hadn’t been as good as they were, i don’t think i would have been accepted.</p>

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<p>Someone suggested that this question has not been directly answered. The answer is “no.” If your GPA is low the individual reading your application will undoubtedly CONSCIOUSLY put you lower in the stack. There’s nothing remotely subconscious about it.</p>

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<p>@Firehose
You’re right, I do tend to wander off into wordy detail when discussing a great many thing. In fact this very response was much longer, but no more! I appreciate the value of small talk and I do not consider myself the intellectual superior to everybody surrounding me. The issue I’ve had with conversational deprivation is more the inability to find what I need in most of my friends; outside of my friends is sort of limited due to the medium I exist in being high school where talking to other groups is socially awkward for one or all of the parties involved-- often the other party if it’s me. I have one person, who I would consider the best friend I’ve had, that constantly fulfills my wants when it comes to any sort of interesting or entertaining discourse. Unfortunately we all have lives, so the ability for he an I to constantly converse is limited. I fear I speak too long on this, so I hope you understand from what has been said.</p>

<p>@R12
Yes, I am in fact lonely. Not physically, but I’m sure you understand.
I feel there has been a miscommunication in my detailing of those nine students that I take a stand against. I have absolutely NO issue with people who have the ethic to do the work, as well as the tact to employ it brilliantly. The people I do take a stance against are the ones who have no particular grasp or care for the material, but maintain the grade because the ability to regurgitate information is in vast supply. There is certainly a difference between the two and I may have carelessly lumped them together causing some unrest in people who are too easily offended.
The only real problem I have, one that has lent to the flapping of my unsteady mouth, is the feeling that everyone purveys about schools of lofty academic and intellectual capacity. It’s the feeling that people are telling others how to feel. It’s a notion that I don’t understand. To assert with such force and sincerity that someone should feel a certain way, that they may not have felt themselves, is both awkward and disturbing. (Disturbing like… you walk into your house and a Samsa-esque insect is sitting on your couch and eating all your cherry Twizzler bites, not disturbing in the, “Oh I’m offended that you said that” way) Like I said, it’s weird, almost like someone coming up, burning your finger, and then telling you that it didn’t hurt. Again, this is not an attack, simply an observation that I have made and recalled because of it’s peculiar similarity to another event in my life.</p>

<p>oh, and @nysmile
I am well aware of Ivy League acceptance stats =P</p>

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<p>Just to tell you, these places are ACADEMIC institutions, which means that education comes first. If you can’t deliver the academic goods, there is no point in accepting you (and if they do, you must have a very compelling reason). Now, the question is what happens if you are a borderline academic candidate–that’s when they start looking into who you are, your ECs, your essays, and your recs.</p>

<p>And also the admissions officers know what they want in an applicant, so they know what type of ECs/essays make a stellar applicant in the back of their minds.</p>

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<p>My question is: Are your grades and SAT scores really that low? From your posts I am imaging a ~2.0ish GPA and 1500 -1600 (on a 2400 scale) SAT score. Now unless I overlooked your stats, you may not really be in bad shape because I know of teenagers who think that a 3.8 GPA unweighted and 2100 SAT is bad. Anyway, if your scores are as horrible as you have led me to believe they are, then I can only respond that our personal history is what people judge us by. </p>

<p>If you deal with a person who lies to you and then tells you they have changed and will not lie anymore are you going to believe them? How about the person that always seems to back out of plans at the last minute. Do you eventually stop making plans with them? As a nutritionist would tell you, you are what you eat and a creditor will tell you your credit history and score tells them what type of borrower you will be. People can always change, but they don’t always change so when we as humans pass judgment on others we put a lot of value on history and less on potential. </p>

<p>As a high school teacher I listen to teenagers tell me frequently how they regret not understanding how important it was to have made better grades in 9th and 10th grades. They hope colleges will look at how their grades have improved as a sign they have matured and I am sure some colleges do look at that, but the big leagues want someone who had it together at the beginning of high school, not a late bloomer or one who swears they will bloom in college.</p>

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<p>the fact is, for every numbers oriented applicant who is not “innovative”, there will be 5 more who are both. unless you can really show the admissions committee how your college achievements will be radically different from your high school achievements, your chances of admissions are low. there are probably a few thousand applicants who believe they will get in on promise alone, like you.</p>

<p>so many successful people have graduated from state schools/non ivy leagues. don’t equate admission to one of these schools with success later in life. if you are truly “innovative”, then you will make do with the opportunities you have and perhaps gain something from the experience.</p>

<p>also, you seem to think that all of your peers are mindless buffoons. learn to appreciate everyone for what they are - that kind of attitude will get you nowhere. adapting to situations is a valuable skill.</p>

<p>good luck.</p>

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<p>@att</p>

<p>I appreciate the additional commentary, but we have-- myself and the others in this thread-- addressed these specific items. I am thoroughly informed on the vast number of applicants who are probably qualified in at least one or two ways while I also acknowledge all the applicants who are fitting in all ways. I’m also aware of the quality of non-Ivies and the other opportunities to be had, but you can’t honestly expect someone to not at least want to go, even a little bit. Concerning my peers being “mindless buffoons”, I have said that it is not the complete lack of intellect that hinders my finding it amongst them; it is in fact the difficulty finding the right people. If “buffoons” are a particularly elusive breed, then yes, my classmates that possibly possess interesting qualities are in fact “buffoons”. =P Sorry, I love it when people use uncommon words, the other day a teacher used the words ruffians as if it were a completely casual thing and I was exceedingly delighted.</p>

<p>Edit: I am also pleased by the phenomenon that is “@att”</p>

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<p>shadowkitt, you should read a book called: A is for admissions-the insider’s guide to getting into the ivy league and other top colleges
this was written by michele hernandez, an ex admissions officer at Dartmouth, and explains the exact process step by step</p>

<p>in the book it explains that grades to matter to a certain point so that the candidate even gets his app reviewed</p>

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<p>Actually, Shadowkitt, I know plenty of smart, creative, interesting people who are not interested in the Ivies. I know lots of smart, creative, interesting people who didn’t apply to the Ivies and are very happy with the colleges they went to. If what you want is a college which will challenge you and where you will find others interested in learning for it’s own sake, you can find that in many schools outside the thin sliver of famous ones. Many of them are ‘off the radar’ and therefore still have high standards, but a higher admit rate and the ability to really consider each candidate very closely. Look at all the schools at the “colleges that change lives” website. [Colleges</a> That Change Lives](<a href=“http://www.ctcl.com%5DColleges”>http://www.ctcl.com).</p>

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<p>Shadow-those 9 kids, and their ability to regurgitate facts is EXACTLY what these colleges want. And THAT is why I think kids like you, and my daughter would actually end up UNHAPPY there. I believe you that there are different types of intellect. I think a person who can remember and take tests is the A student with the high SAT. And I hear you saying…“But, what about me?” Again, this is ALSO just like my daughter. She doesn’t have BAD scores/GPA (2210/34/3.7). But they’re far below what she COULD have accomplished with her God given intellect if she had CHOSEN to devote her time and effort to that task…instead of spending her passion, energies, attention on the arts. I’m OK with that, but NOW she is seeing the “uh-oh” side of that. She’s back to a 3.9, realizing that she can’t prove on paper what she knows. And how else CAN one prove that? A four-year GPA average is much more indicative of future success than a 1 page written essay that says “I’m smart and creative”. Can’t just talk the talk. Gotta walk the walk.
OR…accept the consequences. </p>

<p>Just be comfortable knowing that a “fact regurgitator” (test taker) recites the answers to questions that have already been answered. A “reasoner” (who doesn’t always look as good on paper) can FIND the answer to new questions. some kids are both. So get higher education wherever you can, get out into life and make a difference, and people will sing your praises for solving some worldwide lifelong riddle…and you’ll get your vindication. You can say “told you so”.</p>