Admission Rates, Yield, & Outcomes- Talk at Admitted-Student Luncheon

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
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As a newcomer to the University of Chicago community (in the form of a parent), we attended an accepted student event this weekend. The venue was spectacular, and it was also connected to the University’s founding history.

The luncheon was held at the Stone Barns Center for Food and Agriculture, a nonprofit educational center founded by David Rockefeller as a tribute to his late wife, Peggy. Mrs. Rockefeller raised Simmenthal cattle and was a passionate advocate of farmland preservation. The center, on 80 acres dominated by Norman-style stone barns built in the 1930s by John D. Rockefeller Jr., and a working four-season farm and educational center just 30 miles north of New York City, offers workshops and includes the restaurant Blue Hill at Stone Barns, whose chef, Dan Barber, is a proponent of the farm-to-table movement. The Rockefeller family’s imprint is everywhere: In the thousands of acres of nearby pastures, woodlands and lakes that John D. Rockefeller Sr. began acquiring as he created his family’s estate in the 1890s.

There were approximately 200 guests, and the execution of the luncheon was sublime. It was among the highest end and graciously executed events I have ever attended. The tables were broken into parties of approximately 12, and there were two families, two incoming students, and two recent graduates at our table. The two students at our table are employed by the leading investment bank and management consulting firm in the industry.

John Liew, a University of Chicago Trustee, was the event’s host. John is a founder of the global hedge fund AQR, a behemoth with $175 billion under management.

Jim Nondorf, Vice President for Enrollment and Student Advancement & Dean of College Admissions and Financial Aid, was the lead speaker.

Having seen my share of great business leaders through the years, I can predict that this fellow Nondorf is on his way to superstardom in academia. I have near zero first-hand knowledge about historic and decades old admission, yield, or graduate outcomes at Chicago. However, what Nondorf and the Maroons are accomplishing in recent history is incredible.

While specific numbers were not released, it is clear Stanford and Harvard’s admission and yield rates are under serious assault by Nondorf & Chicago. Assuming the Cardinals and Crimson leadership (as well as Bulldog and Tiger) have similarly serious and competitive professionals running their joints, the peer schools should take notice—Nondorf and his trustees have their eyes on being number 1 in admission rates, yield, and USNWR.

However, more than admission and yield rates, the topic of graduation outcomes really dominated the event. The Metcalf internship program, and its impact on outcomes, is a hot topic at Chicago.

With the backdrop of a liberal arts college (think Core), in the midst of world renowned research university, outcomes got plenty of attention.

In 2015, 93% of graduates had post-graduation plans (jobs or graduate school acceptance) in place before leaving the campus nest. The Top 20 graduate destinations included the likes of Goldman Sachs, Google, Boston Consulting Group, and Columbia & Stanford Universities. Top hedge funds & private equity firms were over also represented in the outcomes study, and non-for profits like Teach for America even made the top 20.

As for graduate school route, there was a stunning 88% medical school acceptance rate vs. a 41% national average. Admission to the top 6 law schools snagged a record 66 graduates from the 2015 class, and overall, 85% of law applicants were accepted into the top 14 law schools.

The 2015 industry destinations of graduates were 30% business/financial, 18% went into consulting, 13% government/nonprofit, 11% STEM, 9% education, 8% journalism/arts/media, 4% healthcare, 4% other, and 3% law.

The 2015 geographic destinations of graduates were 46% Midwest, 29% Northeast, 11% West, 11% International and 3% South.

For “fun” there was also a recent graduate in the group that is a founding team member (first 20 employees) of Snapchat. As a “gift” the admitted students were able to gain some sort of “two hour exclusive” to Snapchat. As a non-user, I don’t know what this means, but the kids thought it was super cool. I was more impressed with Snapchat’s recently announced $20 billion valuation which would put this young professional in the category of one of the wealthiest people in the USA. Amazing, and no doubt the development folks are quite happy.

All and all, this event was at once impressive, and a bit overwhelming. While fun to talk about Chicago’s standing in 1900, 1950, and 2000, what is clear is that today–in 2017–Chicago is very comfortable in its skin about being a leading global university and welcoming the chance to make their case.

It would be fascinating to see a well-researched outcomes study that begins in 2015 and compares Chicago to its HYPS peers. My sense is this would be quite a battle, and completely different than an outcomes study from say back in 1995. Sounds like a project for an energetic young person!

The well-rounded nature of the admitted students gave me a sense that the decades old “fun goes to die” legacy is over, dead and buried. It is almost impossible to detect how that legacy got started when you see the class of 2021. These kids were laughing and having a good time, and I can see why the outcomes study of the 2015 was so impressive as interviews must be easy for these well-rounded kids.

I have now heard the case why University of Chicago is the hottest University in the USA. As a parent, while exhilarating, it is also a little scary. We hope our child can contribute adequately, grow, and give as much as he takes from this intellectual environment.

We are most blessed with this opportunity.

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The quest to ‘improve’ admissions yield and rate does not necessarily speak to the value of the educational opportunity. A school with a lower admit rate is not necessarily better than one with a higher rate. In Chicago’s case, they are notorious for trying to manipulate or manufacture their stats. They court applications shamelessly with fee waivers and mailings to students that have zero chance of acceptance, in order to lower the acceptance rate. Last year, they reported a very low admit rate in late March/early April only to start taking kids off the WL in early April. It seems like they deliberately under admitted to report a ‘good’ stat, and then used the WL early to fill out the class. There is no glory in manipulating the numbers.

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It was a spectacular event. We had the same reaction as you. You should feel excited and proud for your child.

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Thank you for the information in this thread. Excited to see how things turn out.

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Some may be enthralled and others a bit turned off by this apparent display of privilege and wealth. Fortunately, UChicago is not just a prep school for the financial elite of today and tomorrow, but a place where serious study is still held in high regard, a place where student athletes study between heats, and a place where diversity is much more apparent than at many smaller liberal arts schools. Dean Nondorf has his own agenda, and it (the game of admit rates and yield) contributes to the school’s reputation, which in turn influences the USNWR rankings that are built around reputation… a circular situation that, worst case, might not really say anything of value about the school.
The psychological effect of the glitzy venue is strong, no doubt. Fortunately there is substance beneath the shiny surface.

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to OP: Do you know if this event was for both ED and EA admits or just EA admits?

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You are very lucky for that opportunity. At a $72K COA, that school is out of reach for most people. You are indeed blessed.

Good luck.

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I’m guessing that this was intended for New York and surrounding states accepted students? It sure does sound glitzy though. Sounds like the first time they have done this at this venue?

My daughter is a freshman there right now. While she loves UChicago the pace of the quarter system is already starting to wear her down. I imagine it’s like summer school pace. So at first she loved the idea of having to take so many classes in the 3 quarters! The variety of classes was alluring. But now reality is setting in.

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UChicago had the same event last year for EA admits. My impression was that the event last year was held partly to help increase yield among the EA admits (no ED last year). That’s why I am curious as to whether ED admits this year were invited. My guess is yes since it seems like UChicago and it’s trustee host aren’t cutting any corners with regard to this event.

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Thank you for that information. I’m glad to see, as the mother of a 1st year, that they are focusing on outcomes–advising has historically been one of the weaknesses of UC.

This certainly is the new UChicago, and as long as the intellectual rigor and atmosphere is valued and maintained, this alum has no objection. It does sound as though the days of The Bourgeois Capitalist Running Dog Lackey Society holding a ‘pee-in’ at the Botany Pond at the stroke of midnight are no more…

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UChicago received the largest ever early applications. 13,000 for ED1and EA. Total admission from that was 9 %…About two thirds of the admits were ED1. This is startling when you consider the substantial double digit early admit stats for the other top peer colleges. It is also in line with this year being the most competitive by far for all college admissions.

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Those laughing happy well-rounded kids in the Class of 2021 (caught at a moment where they’re relieved that the pressure is finally off) haven’t yet gone to the place where fun comes to die. Check back in a year! Courses are challenging, the quarter system is brutal, and it’s not always easy to stay well-rounded – my DC certainly has less time for sports and music than she did in her hypercompetitive/quite demanding HS. This is not to say that UofC isn’t great school. But it’s a great school for students who think that intellectual hard work IS fun. The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow pitch rings hollow to me. If that’s what you’re after, you generally would be better off at Harvard or Stanford or Wharton, maybe Amherst.

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@exacademic You seem rather hostile and bitter. The kids from my D’s high school who are at UChicago all love it and are having plenty of fun as well. And yes, the priority is academics. That’s why it’s called college.

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Not bitter (or hostile) at all. My kid is very happy with her choice and so are we. But I am realistic about the workload demands compared to other elite schools (including ones where I’ve studied and taught). And about what kind of kid/family is best served by/likely to be happy at UofC.

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@exacademic Amherst was a deplorable visit experience. The over the top left wing political correctness regime was all permeating. It was small and the vibe we got was small minded. Not a university. No one has heard of Amherst outside the US. Cannot compare Amherst with UChicago.

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Sure you can compare Amherst with UChicago – depends on your metric. If it’s billionaire alumns or access to high-paying finance careers, then Amherst may have the edge if your goal is to maximize future income while also having fun in college.

I’m not suggesting that should be your goal. But the event (as described) seemed oriented toward people for whom that would be a goal. And, in that sense, I don’t think they’re pitching the best of what UofC has to offer.

ITA that, as an intellectual environment UofC is much richer than Amherst. But, honestly, intellectual environment is not what most kids (or families) want from college. Wrt international prestige, yes, UofC has it and Amherst doesn’t. But if international prestige is what you want, Harvard and Stanford would be the way to go (and my third example would have been Berkeley rather than Amherst). But, again, international prestige isn’t what most kids/families are looking for from college.

I don’t want to go back to the days when anhedonia was treated as a badge of honor/sign of intellectual seriosity, nor do I think that intellectually-oriented kids should be encouraged to believe that academia is the only worthwhile calling, so I’m all for nicer dorms, better food, and excellent career counseling. But I don’t think that beating Harvard or Stanford based on stupid metrics touted by USNWR or Forbes is what UChicago should be focusing on.

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@exacademic – Amherst has an edge over UChicago in high finance? Absurd. The UChicago economics degree is revered on Wall Street. The Booth Business School is now second in the country tied with Stanford. their careers in business program has done an amazing job in placing kids in high finance and consulting jobs.

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I am an alum of UChicago with a daughter who probably will be going to UChicago next year - and I have another daughter who currently is at Amherst after choosing it over UChicago.

Both of them are amazing places, and both of them are quite intellectual. Don’t kid yourself that the kids at Amherst are having fun partying and just in it for the money. Go to the Amherst forum and read the discussions where alums complain that everyone studies too much and doesn’t party like the old days, etc.

Amherst is an extremely intense school with a high workload, and it sends an extraordinary percentage of the graduating class on to get PhDs in academic disciplines, yes - a higher percentage than UChicago does.

Nor is Amherst “over the top left wing blah blah blah.” Yes, it is liberal and diverse, and yes there have been protests about Donald Trump - but that is true at Chicago and every other elite college.

I love UChicago, but this thread has a weird misunderstanding about what Amherst is. Some people seem to think Amherst is a “party all the time and then we all go get rich on Wall Street” school. Other people claim it is a leftist paradise where everyone majors in liberation theology and protests instead of going to class. It can’t be both of them - and it isn’t either of them. Amherst and Williams are what they are - elite intellectual liberal arts colleges with diverse student bodies and a substantial athletic presence.

Carry on with the discussion. UChicago is on the rise and I couldn’t be happier about it. No need to misconstrue Amherst to do that.

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FWIW, I’m not assuming kids at Amherst are just partying and in it for the money. I’m arguing that IF you’re just in it for the money and want to have fun in college, THEN you’d probably be better off at Amherst than UChicago. I’ve taught a number of Amherst grads in a PhD program. Some great, some mediocre. All had excellent GPAs .

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It’s still a bad example. If you’re just in it for the money and want to have fun in college, then you’d probably be better off at tons of places other than Amherst. I suggest Dartmouth, or Colgate, or W&L. Amherst will disappoint you, because there will be far less partying and far more studying than you wanted.