<p>^^^^It was so sad!!!</p>
<p>@Halflokum. Interesting discussion. Sorry to hijack the thread. I used NU as an example because I was aware of the academic qualifications of the kids who were not admitted to NU from my S’s class v. my S’s academic qualifications. Although both S1 and S2 were admitted to several MT programs, I was not aware of the academic credentials of those with whom they “competed” for spots at those schools (and could not compare). I understand the confusion I created because NU does not currently admit MT’s before their freshman year. VP at NU requires a prescreen and audition, and the music school admission works similarly to many MT programs. Accordingly, it cannot be entirely about academics at NU for music students. It was my observation that on paper, several other kids who applied to NU and did not get in would have been stronger candidates academically than my S1 who was admitted (I get it that it was a different degree) . I fully understand that admissions are much more complicated than a formula of GPA and test scores, but stay with me. My point, I guess, is that his performance at his audition was the chip that admitted him (given that he was in their academic acceptance range). It is my imperfect belief that if another Baritone who auditioned at NU had better audition scores than S1, he would have been admitted over S1, even though the other student’s academic scores may have been lower , albeit both in the academic acceptance range. If that makes any sense then, logically the audition performance was virtually 100% of the reason for acceptance between these two(once you get past meeting the academic threshold). I am making a leap here I know. Again based on no first hand knowledge because I don’t work in admissions, audition performance which I called talent in a previous post is the driver when schools provide the offers. MT, VP, BFA theatre seem to work in a simelar way. I agree wholeheartedly that evaluation of MT talent is as subjective as you get when it comes to differentiating among the top 10% of artistic candidates, but these Music and Theatre schools have to score these kids somehow. What CCM thinks is their top scored audition student may be much different than what BOCO, NYU, etc. think is their top scored student. But they score them nevertheless. @Connections, we may have to agree to disagree, but will respond later. :)</p>
<p>I enjoy your posts, Nccpdad.I think your theory has some merit…</p>
<p>@Nccpdad, I don’t want to hijack the thread either but since we’re at it… I’ll answer and the rest of y’all can please close your eyes. 
I’m sure that you are right with respect to NU and the VP majors and other music students. If you’re in the academic range and more talented (in their subjective opinion but hey… it’s their school it is their opinion that matters) sure it would make sense for them to conclude that they could take a lower but “in the range academically” student who seems more talented over one with better grades, essays etc. Totally get that and I have no doubt that is what they do sometimes – maybe always. I’m sure NYU does this too when they want to. I was just saying that as far as theatre admits go at NU since you listed it in the same breath with NYU, U Mich etc., doubt it works like that because there is no process during the admissions cycle that measures talent… that comes post-admission for MT. And not to stir it all up again I know you can have awards on the resume if you care to send one though it isn’t asked for, or a reference from theatre person that also isn’t asked for or write about your theatre experience in the common app essays etc. and that may certainly indicate some level of competency but it still isn’t the same thing as an audition. Had to get that last sentence in though I know others are of the opinion that resume/awards do the trick. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one but it has nothing to do with me completely agreeing that NU has a dynamite theatre/MT program – among the best.</p>
<p>My daughter went to a private school where NU is a very popular school to apply to and apparently it’s mutual because they admit good chunk of the kids considering the graduating class is maybe 125 ish. I think there were probably (round numbers) 10 acceptances in her class last year not counting the kids that pulled their applications because of EDs or EAs at their top choice at other highly selective schools (talking about amazing kids that are now at Harvard, Yale you get the drift). There were also some number of rejections probably at least as many. I know from last year’s data at NU among other majors, sometimes the kid with the lower grades and test scores got in and the more academically successful kid did not regardless of the major including the one kid that I know did apply for theatre (and I know her REALLY well ‘cause she’s related to me). Clearly there is a holistic approach at NU which is great and the kids from my daughter’s school that are there are wonderful and deserving. My real point was… the same thing happens when they look at the theatre/drama applicants because they can only judge them with what they have. What they don’t have is an audition.</p>
<p>I enjoy your posts too! Fan club.</p>
<p>So is anyone going to explain what an extracurricular PA school is exactly? I’m still curious!</p>
<p>Hi connections. In post #48 he explained it as a pricey pay by the class business. I’m thinking extra-curricular means it’s not affiliated with her school. We have several theater companies offering a variety of classes in their youth divisions where the kids attend once a week and are often cast in children’s roles in mainstage productions. Some are professional. Some are community theater. I suppose if they offer a wide enough variety of classes they might refer to themselves as a performing arts school.</p>
<p>I just looked it up and the one near us is called a school of the arts. My daughter did not attend although we talked about it and she did one workshop with them while in high school.</p>
<p>Now that we have better understanding of the program from post #48, I still think “what does she want to do and like the best” is the right answer, but the OP also asked the question:</p>
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<p>If we take “elite choir vs. regular choir” out of the discussion and limit it to only asking: Does an after school pay for training and performance theatre program have any admissions related downside for a future college applicant who is now only a freshman? Well I’d now clarify my answer to “indirectly, yes”. And I’d say the same thing about any activity - club soccer with a game schedule so heavy you can’t play on the HS team, elite dance competitions so you can’t ever participate in any after school activity at all, the list goes on.</p>
<p>I think for as many benefits of these outside of school special training bring to the craft (or sport), they do limit your ability to showcase how special you are to your high school audience. If you start this freshman year and continue through, it means when you’re asking for a reference from an academic teacher senior year, they will not have much of a window in to your special talent because it is exercised outside of school where nobody gets to see it and the school community doesn’t get the benefit of it.</p>
<p>There are several really good after school theatre academies in my city too and at least one of which would mean you probably couldn’t do your own high school musical nor frankly much else because of the time commitment (and it would also be a 35-45 minute drive each way as well because amazingly enough it is outside of the city not in it.) As much as that training might have been interesting for my daughter, she walked away from it in favor of limiting her school year theatre training and performance opportunities to whatever her high school drama program offered. (Summers were a different story and she did pick what she thought was best for her theatre training/performance goals). </p>
<p>When it came time for her HS counselor and her math and history teacher (the 2 she picked) to write her common app recommendations, they could not only speak to who she was in their class, but also to her theatrical talents because they were shared at school. The expanded common app essay asks among other things: “We welcome information that will help us to differentiate this student from others.”</p>
<p>Now we never saw those recommendations but those teachers came to every one of her performances. So did her coaches. So did the school administration. So did her friends and some classmates that were not her friends. Do I think that matters for college admission? Yeah I do. I think if you’re the varsity MT player but nobody in your school knows it because you drive 45 minutes away to share it elsewhere, they can’t include that experience when they write about “information that will help us to differentiate this student from others”. </p>
<p>Which sounds like a better recommendation to you?</p>
<p>“Jenny was a great math student who faithfully got her homework in on time and scored well despite what I understand was a demanding drama training schedule”. </p>
<p>“Jenny’s performance in the school musical was inspiring. She is a true leader in the drama program at our school and has raised the bar for everyone. Despite the demands of what I know was a heavy rehearsal schedule she managed to get her math homework in on time and score extremely well on her exams. </p>
<p>OK consider this the equivalent of drawing stick figures to illustrate a point since I’m spending only about 30 seconds on making examples but hopefully you see enough of the contrast in the two to get my meaning. Which one of the two does a better job at answering the common app teacher recommendation prompt: We welcome information that will help us to differentiate this student from others? </p>
<p>The school stuff counts a ton. It is not just the audition. There are enough talented kids out there that will audition brilliantly. If you want choices you need to audition well but you also need something else to distinguish yourself from the other applicants who audition well. It could be the school recommendations. I wouldn’t leave that on the table either.</p>
<p>Well, it honestly depends on your high school and the choices in your community. My daughter didn’t do much in the way of the high school drama stuff. although she did do enough that she was a Thespian member. Our school’s drama program was riddled with horrible politics and ineptitude. It used to be outstanding just before my D started high school; then the main drama person retired, and everything fell apart. This is a regular, non PA school. We do not have a PA school here.</p>
<p>So she took auditioned classes at a professional theatre since we are fortunate to live near a city. The classes were very reasonably priced; toward the end she was taking classes with adults . There are many benefits to taking classes at a real theatre: first, the instruction is often superior to regular high school, which usually consists of getting cast and then acting, with very little actual instruction, even in the ‘best’ high schools. I can’t speak for performing arts schools. Second, you gain professional connections as the instructors are often theatre professionals working in the city. Third, you get a better sense of the ‘real world’ in that you are auditioning with people of all ages over a large area, rather than the relatively small group of teens in your high school. </p>
<p>Her letters of recommendation were great. She got both letters from the theatre professionals she worked with as well as teachers in her school. She would never have asked a teacher for a recommendation unless he/she knew her work–it’s not really a choice between ‘Jenny is a decent kid who gets her work done’ versus ‘Jenny’s performance was inspiring.’ Instead, she got both: she got a math teacher who recommended her b/c of her work ethic and good grades, and her acting teachers outside of schools. By the way, this is a strong case for being a good student, as we discussed earlier. </p>
<p>Finally, each school’s program is very different. In some schools, the drama program is like ours, mediocre at best. The drama people there are kings and queens of the tiny village they rule, but in fact they have no connections with the outside world. So when they say “Jenny’s performance was inspiring” it may mean nothing at all to college people. So the final thing is to know your theatre program at your school–are the people who run it well connected? Does the school win awards in one act festivals and other contests? Does it form connections with the outside community? If it does, then it is an important program to be in. But if it doesn’t, and merely pats itself on the back for being awesome, and is full of ludicrous insider politics, then it might be better to seek outside theatre education.</p>
<p>I don’t think it matters if the student’s artistic recs are from school personnel or from those outside of school. My kid and all my advisees submit recs from both academic teachers at school and artistic recs and in some cases the artistic recs are affiliated with the school and in some, they are not. My D’s artistic recs were from outside her school. However, her guidance counselor did speak a bit about my D’s artistic talents in his report, as my D also participated at school in this area.</p>
<p>Yes, I really depends on what kind of school you are coming from. My daughter graduated from a state-regulated cyber charter school. She had academic recommendations that were only academic (I think these were important because of a perceived need to validate her school.) She had artistic recommendations only from coaches and directors (who were, of course, not connected with her school.) She also had a recommendation letter from a local university where she took courses in a “young scholars” program (i.e., the high schooler enrolls in a real college class as a nonmatriculated student.) She got into competitive academic schools and auditioned programs, both. I don’t think her recommendations hobbled her at all (perhaps, in her extreme case, being cyber-schooled, the recommendation letter from an Ivy League teacher whose class she had taken, provided a bump on the academic side.) </p>
<p>I guess the question is, if she had come from a high school with an active drama program in which she had participated, and yet provided no letters from that faculty, would this choice have been seen as a deliberate omission?</p>
<p>I am not convinced the letters bear that much weight in the end. My suspicion is that most of the decision resets on the audition results, and (in the case of schools with more academic rigor), GPA, test scores, and possibly the essay. My hunch is that of all these, the letters are least important (except in a wait-list situation, further down the line.)</p>
<p>I should clarify myself. I am not saying that a student’s artistic recs need to come from within the school – on the contrary they should come from whoever can best speak to the artistic talent. And I’m certainly not meaning that the academic teachers should be providing the artistic references which wouldn’t make sense. I was trying to say that if the school has a window into what makes you special (athletics, drama, singing, chess whatever) they are more likely to reference it in what they write about the student along with how it sets this particular student apart from the rest. I see that as an advantage.</p>
<p>@connections your description of the high school drama scene sounds dreadful. It actually sounds quite a lot like one of the pay for play drama programs that my daughter did a (very) brief stint in years ago and left because she couldn’t stand the shenanigans. My daughter would seek greener pastures too if her high school program was like that. </p>
<p>In contrast my daughter’s high school drama class (also not at a PA high school… far from it) was superb not because of the scale of the productions they mounted but because of an incredibly caring and gifted teacher. He did not play favorites and was the opposite of political. He was (is still sometimes) a working actor with connections which as far as I know he never used to get people work but his connections meant a wealth of special guests to help with the training or he knew who to hire as musical director, or choreographer. Not just who was the best in those areas but who was the best at working with high school students in those areas and would advance the experience for everyone regardless of talent. He taught the kids how to give thoughtful and constructive feedback to each other and celebrated gains by everyone, not just the stars. </p>
<p>Were the performances mediocre? I suppose if you compare them to the elaborate large theatre magnet high school in our city you could think so. I never cared.</p>
<p>@glassharmonica, I’m the opposite. It think the letters of recommendation do matter and are read. I think they matter more than a resume. Sure, I also think the audition is probably front and center. It gets their attention but those letters might actually draw them in in the end. I could certainly be wrong since I’m not a college admissions rep, but my gut says colleges read them and they matter.</p>
<p>Also to clarify, I know that there are different types of school experiences. A cyber charter school for example (which sounds cool by the way) is a certainly different experience from what my daughter did (more traditional type high school). The OP was also describing a traditional type high school so I’m saying what I’m saying about recommendations from that perspective to give feedback specific to the poster and his/her circumstances.</p>
<p>One other thing I forgot to mention in the earlier reply, there are schools (like NYU) that will not accept artistic recommendations and won’t even read them if you send them and tell you specifically NOT to send them. As I said, I never saw any of my daughter’s teacher recommendations but I’d bet even the math and history teacher said something in their recs about her drama skills because they had first hand knowledge of it.</p>
<p>We have several pay-for-play youth theatre programs around town and d knows, or knows of, several kids who opted out of school programs to focus on one (or sometimes more than one) of these instead. These kids were admitted to prestigious audition-based BFA and BA programs including NYU and Michigan as well as highly-selective academic schools like Northwestern and Yale.</p>
<p>My daughter, husband, and I had dinner with the admissions rep from Rutgers. The first thing she looks at are grades and standardized test scores to make sure the applicant meets the requirements. She said she has rejected many straight A students and kids with perfect test scores because a lot of them were not well-rounded. She said she reads every essay and resume and even said that she has been heart-broken by some of the essays. She looks for well-roundedness and community/global involvement. For instance, if someone was applying for theatre and all they had on their resume was only theatre related, she would have to think twice. She said she would take a person highly involved in theatre who ALSO does a lot for the community or the world. My daughter went to Africa last summer to teach at an orphanage. When the admissions rep interviewed her last year, she said that alone would put her on the top of the stack. The group my daughter went with did a lot of fund-raising and working in the community to get there because we are not rich by any means. Although I believe the admissions reps do read the school recs, I don’t believe it’s as important as the other stuff. I mean, don’t most students who are going to college going to get a teacher that they know will write them a great rec? It could be used in the deciding factor between students but I also believe it’s the last thing on the check list. Also, most of the recs my kids had to submit were from academic teachers. One last thing, my daughter was very involved in her high school performances but after the fall musical, she did not audition for anything else in her senior year because she wanted to focus on her college auditions. I don’t think any college program held that against her because she continued her training in voice and dance and I don’t believe any school said, wow- we were going to accept her but she did not participate in the spring show- we’re going to change our mind about her. That was the best decision because my daughter was able to finally get some free time before college and really enjoy herself. I also think her experience at Unifieds was more relaxed because of that.</p>
<p>@emsdad and others, I’m pretty sure that I never said kids that exercise their special talents outside of school won’t get admitted to top programs. I’m certain they do and I know students in that category here as well. The original musings of the thread asked the question of whether or not it could have any admissions related disadvantage and then later in post #37 he/she also stated: “my D is in the process of eliminating uncertainty in every controllable variable in getting a viable career in MT” which in the context of the rest of the post I assumed was referring eliminating uncertainty in every way she could in advance of applying to MT programs down the road. Everything that I’ve written from my post #67 on was simply to propose a possible disadvantage as food for thought. I’m not an admissions rep and I don’t know if I’m right but I also don’t know if I’m wrong. That’s the fun of the discussion. I see that supportive is also proposing another possible disadvantage which she has some data from an admissions rep discussion to back up. We can talk about that now if we want to and I have my own ideas about community/global involvement as well but I fear I’m already talking too much and you are probably all sick of me by now. :)</p>
<p>Yeah- we are SICK of you halflokum-lol! Anyway, the admissions rep I talked with was telling me the trend about out of school involvement and doing things for the good. If all she saw was theatre productions and nothing else, she would wonder. However, my daughter also performed for nursing and retirement homes and in community festivals in addition to many other things. So, she wasn’t just on stage, she was out in the community. That definitely counts. It was also a way for her to hone her performing skills and the patients in the Alzheimer’s units love that! Not everyone will get to experience the global thing. My son did not but he did a lot with the state thespians.</p>
<p>Oh- and to clarify- I’m not talking about cramming in volunteer hours during your senior year to make you look better. I’m talking about consistency and passion for what you do. Trying to make a difference throughout your school years- not because you think it looks good on your resume!</p>
<p>It’s not that I’m not advising applicants to choose their recommenders wisely, but I also do not believe these letters are as important as other factors in the admissions decision for conservatory-type applications. So those applicants who fear that not having strong recommendation letters from their schools are not necessarily at a disadvantage. Julliard, for example, requires only a recommendation from a language arts teacher (unless they have changed their rules) and that is mainly because in the other divisions they have many non-English-speaking applicants. </p>
<p>Of course, leave no stone unturned. </p>
<p>My daughter (on my perhaps over-thorough advice) sent supplementary material to all of her schools, including letters even when it was not requested (except Juilliard, where we knew it would not be considered). This includes Fordham (they do not ask for any essays or other materials in their common ap supplement), NYU (she did send extra letters), and Mason Gross (when she walked into her audition, they told her they had watched a video she sent), as well as a few schools where she was not admitted, but oh well. Maybe most of the stuff she mailed in was dumped straight into the trash, but I believe that it does matter when you express strong interest in a school.</p>
<p>glassharmonica, my daughters and my advisees have all sent supplemental/artistic recs to all their schools whether asked for or not.</p>
<p>Sadly as a serial rule follower, I advised my daughter not to do that last year. Especially for NYU where they said DON’T in no uncertain terms. I didn’t want it to arrive anyway and have them think she couldn’t read instructions. But in hindsight I think it is a better idea to send it and take a chance on them just tossing it even if they roll their eyes over you not following their instructions. In the case of Northwestern for example I found about a day before the admissions decisions came out (from reading one of Momcare’s posts in cc last year) that although it wasn’t asked for anywhere in the application, not only could you send it, but they would look at it. So sure, much better advice is to not be a serial rule follower like me.</p>