<p>My daughter, now a HS freshman, has been with a top notch extracurricular performing arts school for 10 years now. (We live close to New York City, so the school is deeply networked into the Broadway scene. It also happens to be a very loving, nurturing environment.) She's both extraordinarily talented <em>and</em> extraordinarily formally trained.</p>
<p>However, due to politics (don't ask), the music teacher in her regular public high school is basically withholding her admission to the school's "elite" vocal program unless she commits to State and Regional Choir (I put "elite" in quotes because this is just a regular highschool)... which would mean quitting or at least severely curtailing her enrollment in the extracurricular Performing Arts school.</p>
<p>Is it worth it to"diversify to something like a "selective" high school vocal group? Does H.S. involvement in lieu of additional study at the extracurricular school matter enough to the admissions officers of top MT programs that we should really consider it?</p>
<p>The argument that some admissions officer might say, "Yeah, impressive amount of formal training at Academy X, but you kind of shirked your regular school duty by not lending your talents to the extracurricular choir programs there," seems kind of weak to me. </p>
<p>But I'm open to what those who are in the know might have to say.</p>
<p>People at the high school might say your D was shirking her duty, but I don’t think admissions people would see it that way.</p>
<p>My son was involved in community theatre in preference to being involved with his high school’s very mediocre drama productions starting sophomore year. People at the high school tried to make him feel guilty about it, but he ignored them. Hey…it was his life!</p>
<p>My son had some good BFA acceptances too. They were for Acting, not MT, but when it comes to this, I don’t think there’s any difference.</p>
<p>The main thing is training and experience. You don’t want to leave anybody in the lurch, of course, but this doesn’t sound like a case of that.</p>
<p>I think admissions people understand that high school performing resumes may be uneven because of just this sort of politics.</p>
<p>For audition-based programs, the audition seems to be more or less everything. A solid resume may help a little, but individual line items are probably not something to sweat, especially non-MT items. Choir experience is a nice thing to include, especially if it includes regional and state choir participation, but probably won’t greatly increase your odds anywhere, and, conversely, lack of participation is highly unlikely to lower your odds.</p>
<p>I seriously doubt that any college theatre departments really know or care about individual high school programs enough to worry about not signing up for “elite” choir. Kids at my d’s PA HS routinely pass on the all-school musical (the school does 3 musicals a year) and they still gain admission to top MT programs.</p>
<p>I would also think participating in the extracurricular Performing Arts school would provide more training, making her a better performer, making her more desirable to a top MT program. Much better time spent than adding a line item on a resume.</p>
<p>My bias will now be all over this post. I’m all in favor of: what does she want to do and like to do more vs. looking at this as leaving a top notch Broadway connected program vs. having a cool regular high school vocal experience in a regular school? As EmsDad has already suggested… her decision either way will probably have little if anything to do with a college admission down the road and well… to decide that now as a HS freshman is too much pressure if you ask me. I’d pick whatever would be more fun as bring her a broader set of experiences along with peers to bounce her skills off of. By the numbers that could be the choir gig but you decide. But as far as her resume goes, nobody between now and senior year will care. That’s my bet.</p>
<p>Isn’t it perplexing to realize that all the conventional wisdoms are inapplicable for the auditioned BFA kids? The GPA, the test scores, the curriculum, APs and Honors, extra-curriculars, community service. None of them matter much. The audition is just about everything.</p>
<p>It’s hard to explain this to people. I find it helps if you say, “It’s like a violin player.”</p>
<p>As for the original poster, I’d suggest doing whatever seemed like the most fun. (Kristin Chenoweth wrote in her autobiography that she has used that as her guide for her entire career!)</p>
<p>A few minutes ago I responded to this thread from a current HS freshman parent and upon reflection I realized my response was full of my own untested bias. So I thought I’d question the source of my own bias in case I’ve provided really poor advice.</p>
<p>I’d like to know how being an early “phenom” in your area/community even if it is a program outside NYC actually translates to success both in college admissions and beyond that for career work. Does anybody know? I live in a city with a very professional theatre community. There are a handful of kids that regularly are cast as leads in local professional productions which require somebody under 18 (or somebody under that age willing to commit to somebody older) and many of these same kids have also made school trade-offs for Hollywood or Broadway and did really well because… gosh they are good and also willing and available. </p>
<p>I also know who these kids are and have seen their work in comparison to other amateurs. They are great but not necessarily “better” than many kids who didn’t make the same trade-offs during their school years to take opportunities along the road. So here is my question: does it matter in the end? Are early phenoms caught or by the time the rest of the kids get going do they have such a big advantage in terms of contacts and credentials that they forever have an advantage? It could change my answer to that HS freshman parent if I knew it mattered. I know that I answered the earlier thread from the HS freshman parent as somebody who thinks the early stuff doesn’t matter. I’m now realizing that I actually don’t know if what I feel about the early stuff is true or not. Discuss…</p>
<p>It seemed to me the the OP was feeling pressure for the resume sake. So while my response was about what would make more “sense” in terms of training, it also seemed that is what she really wanted to do…</p>
<p>Well, at some of the top schools with 20 kids per class several of them do have professional or even Broadway credits. It has to help and sure can’t hurt. In this area one girl who was the go-to choice for every teen girl role in a regional theater ended up at one of the 3 top programs. I’m not certain that she was all that much more amazing than anyone else but that’s just me, someone clearly thought so. But I don’t think an early advantage matters much in the long run.</p>
<p>Sure they could have Broadway or really impressive regional credits but also just be as good regardless of their credits and done as well with college auditions. Or not. Does it matter?</p>
<p>To the OP, I am with lojosmo here. First and foremost, I think your D should do what she WANTS to do in terms of participation. Secondly, which activity will give her the most training and experience? It sounds to me that the EC performing arts school offers more training than simply being in a choir, and your D has been very involved there now for years and I can’t see giving it up. I am not sure how choir works at your school but you mention an “elite” one, and I am wondering if there is another choir at school (the “non-elite” one?) that she could still be in which would give her both experiences. As an aside (and not that pertinent), but I don’t get the teacher insisting on a commitment to regional and All States, because in my state, the student has to be selected by audition to get into regionals and All States and not everyone in the school choir (even the most selective one) makes it into these. </p>
<p>Anyway, I find this to be a non-issue with regard to BFA in MT admissions. College won’t care so much WHERE your D trained, but more that she had training. It can be through school or outside of school. Doesn’t matter. Further, as lojosmo wrote, besides appearing on the resume, the bigger issue is what your D will gain from the various experiences/training which will make her a viable candidate in terms of her ability at an audition. Which activity will yield her more training, which in turn will better prepare her for artistic admission? </p>
<p>Also, if it ever came up (but likely won’t) and a college asked the student, “how come you did not participate in your school’s choir?” (or some similar type question), a student could honestly say that due to schedule conflicts, it did not work to do school choir and she opted to train at the PA program outside of school due to X, Y, Z benefits there. All kids have to make choices due to schedule conflicts and some kids choose school related activities more or else outside of school ones. The more important thing is that your D stays actively involved and continues to train. Where she does it is not as important as that she does it. Also, I don’t know what she does at the PA afterschool place, but my GUESS is that it is a lot more than what she might gain in a choir when it comes to MT training, especially if they offer voice, dance, acting and put on shows, etc.</p>
<p>Granted my daughter is currently going through the audition process and we’ll have to see where she winds up after all is said and done. But this thread makes me wonder if some kids that aspire to MT are actually being given the chance to be kids. Seems like there’s a ton of pressure even as freshmen in HS or even earlier to be in a performing arts school, etc, etc. Are they being given a chance to actually be kids, to have their HS friends, first boyfriend/girlfriend, and on and on.</p>
<p>I can only go by my D’s experiences to date. She attends a big high school with over 4700 students, 1300 in her graduating class, and over 500 kids in choir. Kids in our town that are interested in MT and PA aspire to be in the top show choir at the high school, which consistently ranks in the top 5 in the US. They also do an amazing holiday Christmas show, which the kids look forward to every year, they do several dramas and plays, and a big spring musical. Given the number of kids, competition is high, and the auditions to get a role in anything are about what you’d see on her college auditions. In the summer there is a local Summer Stock that she’s been in for years, also very competitive with excellent training.</p>
<p>In the midst of all this, she has had a great HS experience, made tons of friends, has had the boy friend, has had a wonderful time. She could have chosen to audition for local commercial productions, or gone to a smaller private HS to get more roles, etc. But if you ask her she wouldn’t have missed her experiences at her high school for anything. She’s had pretty good training through her HS, hopefully the kind that gets her a spot in an MT program. But she has grown as a person, has made friends that will last a lifetime, and has had just the kind of HS experience she and her parents wanted for her. And if traveling this path means she may not be as competitive for certain college MT programs, I think she’s just fine with that.</p>
<p>So to the original poster: let your daughter do what will make her happy. If she’s happier in the high school let her go there and be in the choir. If she is the extraordinary talent you say she is (and we all think our kids are extraordinary talents by the way) the MT thing will work itself out. Let her make a decision where she’d be the happiest. And make sure she has time to be a kid. She won’t ever be able to get these years back.</p>
<p>Sorry - I didn’t read all the posts, but as soon as I saw the comment about her high school teacher and politics and “don’t ask”, my gut was to say, she doesn’t need to be a part of that particular drama at the high school. If she likes doing what she’s doing, why subject her to the controlling teacher at the high school?</p>
<p>Last year we had a boy who played the bass (strings) beautifully. He did outside training so couldn’t be a part of the high school orchestra. He was accepted to Juilliard and is there now. We have a senior violinist who is following his lead. Yes - I miss seeing them at the high school concerts, but they are happy!!!</p>
<p>I first started reading and posting here on CC when D was starting her freshman year of hs, wanting to put her on the perfect path for success in MT. If I have learned anything in almost 3 years, it is that the most important thing to focus on is preparing her for her auditions. Everything else is window dressing. So let your kid do what they want to do the most.
Like many of your kids, my D has never wanted to do anything else with her life. She was lucky enough to be one of the go-to local girls that was cast in almost everything that needed a child in regional theatre for a few years (not completely due to her extraordinary talent, but largely due to being small for her age). When she was starting high school, we were unsure whether she should “retire” from professional theatre because she was still only 4’9" and was being called in for kid’s parts. She missed so much school in junior high, that it seemed the only way high school would work was if she was homeschooled.
Without exception, the directors and Equity actors that she had been working with over the years said that she should quit professional theatre and go to high school and enjoy being a teenager. She should go to dances and be in clubs and just have fun, because you’re only in high school once. No one in the business (except maybe her agent) thought she should choose her “career” over high school. I really think she would have regretted missing out on high school, although there are definitely times that acting 24/7 is much more appealing. But that’s what you have to look forward to after college, right?
I don’t know if any of that will affect her admissions next year. Her grades aren’t stellar, and she hasn’t taken the ACT yet. But she will have a realistic list and be prepared for her auditions, so we’ll hope for the best.</p>
<p>I have absolutely never understood (as I have posted before) why the high schools try to make it impossible for these kids to be involved in both their hs and the community. It is absolutely possible, my son is proof of this. He attends a private school that has developed a very strong performing arts department (as does a few other local private schools). The public HS performing arts magnet program is notorious for discouraging the students from getting involved in the community. Forcing the kids to choose is not a great policy, and my son has had a much more balanced experience than my daughter did (she chose community, btw…). Such a shame…</p>
<p>Photomom, I can only go by my Ds experience at a large HS. Do they actively tell you that you can’t do community theater? No. Unless you make a commitment to be in a choir or show or whatever and then don’t honor that commitment. In which case I completely understand why they would tell you to make that choice. It’s really a practical impossibility to do both, at least in my Ds case… Between all her classes she has to take to get her diploma (many of which are honors or AP courses), the high school show choir, the different plays and dramas and miusicals all year, the studying, and then actually having time to be a teenager and do things like be with her friends, there is no way for her to fit doing an outside show. It would require her to sacrifice some of the other things listed, which she nor her parents would want her to do. That may be a choice for some others, just not for her.</p>
<p>One other point from the discussion in this thread. Someone posted something about resumes and how they don’t look at anything other than the audition, that grades, test scores, etc don;t matter. From my experience thus far I would strongly disagree. I have had two program directors tell me that one of the first things they look at is a student’s academic performance. Granted, if you don’t audition well, it’s going to be secondary. But one director was explicit: they want smart kids in their program. Assuming you have talent, they would take the smarter kid over the one that hasn’t performed as well. And just this past weekend a director told me that academics are included in the entire discussion over placement of kids in their program.</p>
<p>They absolutely look at the grades and test scores, my son is not the strongest student so we knew ahead not to apply to certain programs. </p>
<p>As for the school, they outright tell the kids that they do not want them doing community shows, however, if you are not cast in the school shows, you could end up not doing anything. Thankfully, my daughter did what she wanted (high school and community) but got tired of the HS drama drama and did mostly community.</p>
<p>I was the one who said the other things don’t matter much. What I meant to say was, they don’t matter AS much, meaning, it’s a different scenario from regular college admissions. </p>
<p>In the case of my son, the admissions committee will see “Fantastic test scores, mediocre grades, lots and lots of outside shows.” It will tell the story “this is a smart kid who puts all his time and effort into theatre and music.” I don’t think that story would get him into NYU or Michigan, and certainly not Northwestern or Yale, but it’s fine for most of the good programs, assuming they like his audition.</p>
<p>Probably even NYU and Michigan won’t care if a theatre applicant took AP Calculus. But it’s a big thing in regular college admissions.</p>
<p>In regular college admissions, the staff will look at the other applicants they have from the same high school, and make sure they don’t admit a student with lower stats and reject one with higher ones, unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Again, that doesn’t happen in this situation. </p>
<p>Regarding resumes, don’t you think someone with a great audition and no experience will get the nod over someone with an almost-great audition and lots of stage credits? Other things being equal, yes, of course they like to see a full resume. It shows commitment to their craft, and implies they did a good job if they got hired again, and might even contain a familiar director’s name, someone they can check with if they want to. The stage experience also helps with one’s audition savvy and confidence and range, and maybe gave access to coaches and mentors that the students who only did high school shows would not have had. But nothing matters as much as that high-stakes audition.</p>