<p>Thumper, I think you are right about the "transplants" - I got the same impression from the article. In any case, I do think that many parents and students from these "Ivy League Hot spot" areas do know about Oberlin, Middlebury, Davidson, Grinnell etc. and I certainly know families who proudly sport these college's decals on their cars to prove it.</p>
<p>With so many media articles harping on the spread admissions stress these days, it is fascinating to read this 1996 feature article on (former Dean and Director of Undergraduate Admissions) Margit Dahl, who was asked to reflect on what was clearly seen, ten years ago, to be a disturbing change that heightened demand on the Yale admissions department. Of course, Richard Shaw is currently at work to attract ever-increasing numbers of "world-class students" to Stanford.</p>
<p>" "There's a lot more interest today in packaging, in image," says Dahl. "We as a society are more packaged than we were 20 years ago, and that affects admissions too."</p>
<p>"In her two decades of visiting schools, reading applications, and interviewing students, she's seen the stakes rise on both sides. "In the past, the admissions office here didn't have to work so hard at recruiting," she says. "We could rely on the Yale name to attract the best students." The University still fills its classes with top-notch scholars, says Dahl; it just has to seek them out more deliberately. That means reaching out to more students, in more places. In addition to visiting three or four high schools a day on their recruiting rounds, as admissions officers have done for years, they now hold evening meetings to which every promising high school student within a prescribed area receives an invitation. "It's not just a matter of keeping up with the Joneses," says Dahl of her office's stepped-up recruiting efforts. "It's about talking to kids from different parts of the country that we've never reached before."</p>
<p>Dahl says that she and Richard Shaw, Yale's dean of undergraduate admissions and financial aid, take the task of recruiting world-class students quite literally. In the four years since he succeeded Worth David, who had served as dean since 1972, Shaw has gone abroad four times, scouting Asia, Europe, and the Middle East for qualified students. "We realized that for a place of Yale's stature, we weren't attracting as many international students as we should," says Dahl, pointing out that Shaw also initiated a major redesign of Yale's "viewbook," the brochure that provides some prospective students with their only glimpse of the campus."</p>
<p>Here is a update link to the second installment of the Newday article on the seven seniors:</p>
<p>"Daniel Bianculli</p>
<p>Oyster Bay High School</p>
<p>Visited Cornell, liked it. Flew to Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh last weekend; found it "decent, but not a top choice." Applied to SUNY Binghamton. Applying to Rice University by December 1. Then applying to Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, Vanderbilt, Villanova and Lafayette.</p>
<p>Kristin and Lauren Mobyed</p>
<p>Mineola High School</p>
<p>Recruited to play lacrosse at George Washington University, the twin sisters were "smitten" by students, coach and campus, Lauren said. By end of weekend visit this month, both had committed to attend.</p>
<p>Trinh Nguyen</p>
<p>Copiague High School</p>
<p>Visited Cornell. Awaiting word on early applications to University of Chicago and Georgetown. Finishing applications to Yale, Duke, Cornell, Washington University, SUNY Geneseo, and others.</p>
<p>Matthew Rojano</p>
<p>Bridgehampton High</p>
<p>Took the SAT for the second time earlier this month. Applied to SUNY schools at New Paltz, Oneonta, Old Westbury, Binghamton and Albany."</p>
<p>katonahmom</p>
<p>That "small college in Middlebury Vermont" you mentioned earlier accepted only 20% of applicants last year. Hardly a stat to calm admissioins anxiety.</p>
<p>thumper, I have relatives in Greenville. They tell me it is the highest ranked district in the state. Loaded with transplants. In fact, their neighborhood (a development) has far more transplants than native southerners. Lots of northeasterners & midwesterners. BMW has brought in a decent number of Germans, as well.</p>
<p>The reality of $50,000 per year will deflate this bubble rather quickly. In reality there are only about 20 schools that will produce the vast majority of all the Rhodes, Marshalls, foreign Service officers, investment bankers, top 25 big firm lawyers, cia agents, NIH grant winners, doctors etc. These 20 schools have an important function in developing our national leadership and identifying true talent and are actually worth the price.</p>
<p>Beyond those 20, college becomes a commodity where one could substitute any of one hundred fifty names for any other 150. It is here that the bubble will hit since it is pure hype that is inflating the applications to this group. Amazingly, the key to the hype seems to be raising tuition to near the level of the top 20 so that anxiety prone parents think the commodity schools are worth the exhorbitant price. The extra tuition is used for a relatively small amount of merit aid which is pursued by many that further fuels the fire. Well, people are seeing thtough this now and in an era where defined benefit pensions are being eliminated and health care is going to Mars, parents, particularly the ones paying the full $45,000 freight, will just say no. This will actually be to the benefit of the public college and community college systems as they are on the cusp of an era of vast improvement.</p>
<p>While most Rhodes Scholars do come out of the same schools year after year, that does not necessarily mean that other colleges and universities do not offer quality education. FYI, 2007 U.S. Rhodes Scholars came from:
* Harvard University – 6
* Yale University – 4
* Stanford University – 3
* Washington University in St. Louis – 2 (1 from WUSL School of Medicine)
* Brown University – 1
* Case Western Reserve University – 1
* Cornell University – 1
* Duke University – 1
* Emory University – 1
* Georgetown University – 1
* Montana State University (Bozeman) – 1
* New York University (NYU) – 1
* Princeton University – 1
* University of Minnesota – 1
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill – 1
* University of Oregon – 1
* University of Pittsburgh – 1
* Wake Forest University – 1</p>
<p>As well as from each of the 3 U.S. Military Service Academies:</p>
<pre><code>* U.S. Naval Academy – 1
* U.S. Military Academy – 1
* U.S. Air Force Academy – 1
</code></pre>
<p>Bethie, no doubt about it Middlebury is highly selective and falls into the "most competitive" category so of course competition for admission is tough. It would be unrealistic to think otherwise. With about 2,350 undergraduate students Midd is famous for language instruction and international studies and, I may add, its strict honor code. There is a 9:1 student-faculty ratio and most classes are small with about 16 students. Since it is a small LAC, another point that many students (and parents) prize is that all courses are taught by faculty members rather than graduate assistants. Just because the admit rate is about 20% is no reason to fuel the fire of admission anxiety.</p>
<p>Making my point in spades -80% from the Ivys, Geogretowns and Military acadamies of the world.</p>
<p>Not really, although it may appear to be so. If you do want to think of educational bang for the buck in terms of prestigious accolades and awards, then it would be only fair to cast the net wider to give a more realistic context to judge this type of pragmatic evaluation of educational rigor and competitiveness. By that, I mean it would be necessary to look at the colleges and universities that produced nominees for these presitigious awards. Because as in the case of the Rhodes scholars, they "were selected from 896 applicants endorsed by 340 colleges and universities, and will join scholars selected from 13 other jurisdictions around the world. Approximately 85 are selected each year. The scholarships provide two or three years of study, with the total value averaging about $45,000 per year." Yes, the award winners are selected "on the basis of high academic achievement, personal integrity, leadership potential and physical vigor, among other attributes" but so are the nominees.</p>
<p>"Varied backgrounds lead to Rhodes honor"
<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061119/ap_on_re_us/rhodes_scholars%5B/url%5D">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061119/ap_on_re_us/rhodes_scholars</a></p>
<p>Go to the Harvard Law School Website for 2005-2006.You will see that Cornell($45K tuition) has 40 grads enrolled. Lets come up with a random list of 20 schools from the second 150 interchangeable schools, all of which have $40-45K tuition and fees-Boston College (3), Carleton(1), Colorado College (1), Claremont Mckenna(4). Colgate(1), Holy Cross (1), Knox (1) Haverford(2), Mount Holyoke(0), Johns Hopkins (4) ,Oberlin(2), Reed (2), Smith(1), Dickinson(0), Gettysburg(0), Denison (1), Fordham(0), Vassar(2), Brandeis(11), and Hillsdale (4). Are people really going to pay $45k tuition when they know their kids will not have the type of high paying careers that will offset the expense? I don't think so in today's world. They will do so for a true Ivy, but not for solid, good institutions that consign the 2010 or 2011 graduate to a life of debt.</p>
<p>Multiple Marshall winners for 2007 are from Princeton (4), West Point (3) and Georgetown (2).</p>
<p>"A recent college fair in Chapel Hill attracted several parents researching colleges -- without their children. "</p>
<p>Yes, this is definitely proof of "anxiety." It's not possibly an indication that the fair started during school & e.c. hours just prior to a Friday family commitment, that parent swung by merely to pick up some literature prior to picking up student for that commitment. (Yes, that was us -- & not in the region discussed.)</p>
<p>So Ms. Pope might suggest to colleges that they hold the fair on a weekend? The 2 reasons that neither of my d's have attended a fair is that (1) in our area they've never been accompanied by hard information -- no presentations, & often not much opportunity to meet anyone with actual knowledge, as they send their PR armies, (2) they're held at impossible times for the students.</p>
<p>As to the point (1), at same fair mentioned above, I was also briefly there with a friend + daughter. I watched, listened while they questioned college "reps" who gave them very little useful information.</p>
<p>So now when you stop in to pick up a brochure, it's "anxiety." Terrific.</p>
<p>I agree with thumper. I think we underestimate the effect of so many northerners moving out of here to points south.</p>
<p>Of course, one must put this kid of stuff in perspective. The REAL national emergency has nothing to do with too many kids trying to get into top colleges. The real emergency is the number of kids not even finishing high school. I wonder how those numbers compare.</p>
<p>Also, the media always overestimates this sort of "new problem." It reminds me of: everyone has a big problem finding a nanny, all moms have trouble choosing between staying home with their kids and being the CEO, every teenager has difficulty choosing between a VW Jetta and a Pontiac Firebird, every 20 year old must choose between Cancun or Jamaica for spring break, all recent grads move home to lounge by the pool while leaching off mom and dad...</p>
<p>Lots of the college anxiety for rural and other poor areas nation wide is not getting into HYPSM, but getting into the State Uni with a full or near full scholarship. Most people in America cannot pay full tuition for college (go figure) so academically motivated kids will aim at their state colleges and other public and private colleges that do merit aid based on test scores and GPA and less on amazing ECs that they cannot afford to do. If you work every day in high school to pay the bills, that cuts into time you have to go to a third world country and build houses probono. However, if a kid can get a 4.0 and 1500+ (old SAT) then s/he is in a great position to earn a bunch of merit aid at his/her state school. There are only so many of these scholarships too, so it starts to get competitive at every level.</p>
<p>If there is one thing the college system in America does do, it is to route the true academic superstars to the very top schools with scholarships. Charles Murray I think pointed out that scoring 700+ on the SAT verbal is 40 times more concentrated at the top 12 universities than it is in the general population.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If there is one thing the college system in America does do, it is to route the true academic superstars to the very top schools with scholarships.
[/quote]
There aren't many top 12 universities that offer scholarships. It's mostly needs-based.</p>
<p>In a school where everyone has stellar scores how would anyone ever determine merit? These are the places where "bear any burden, pay any price" applies. What parents need to discern is that there is huge chasm between these few places and about 150 schools that are pretending to be on the same level that are not and should not be "bear any burden pay any price" places.</p>
<p>People turn down these top 12 all the time because they are not willing to pay any price. So the meritocracy hasn't been exclusively concentrated here. It is spread around at dozens of good schools.</p>
<p>I think the "bear any burden pay any price" designation is a completely personal one. Many feel the chasm isn't quite so wide and merit money just makes their decision even more sensible. Also worth noting is that you can go pretty far down in the rankings and still find many schools that have 700+ scores that are much more concentrated than in the general population. And that's where the scholarships are. Maybe it's 30 times more. Or ten times more.</p>
<p>Good points, StickerShock. This is a highly personal decision and also has to do with all the reasons why a student decides to go on to college in the first place. These days the soaring COA is obviously an important issue and, even with financial aid packages, there will come a point at which many families will just decide that they have arrived at the point of diminishing returns. This is precisely why many public state universities use current statistics to emphasize the economic-financial benefit, or eventual payback, of attending any college as one of the major drawing cards to attract applicants away from top private elites. While Ivy and Stanford grads (etc.) may have a recruiting advantage for some high paying fields, such as law, elite universities, notably Princeton, advise strongly against attending if your primary aim is simply future economic gain.</p>
<p>This is taken from the University of North Texas website.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why Go To College?</p>
<p>The big payback</p>
<p>The competitive advantage is yours if you choose to graduate from college. Experts who have researched the performance and job success of college graduates have concluded that, nationwide, college graduates with a bachelor's degree earn about 80 percent more per year than those who only complete high school. In fact, those whose education stops with a high school diploma may see their real wages decline over time...</p>
<p>As you outline your future, spend time considering what you want to do with your life. As with any major purchase, you'll want to be a wise consumer: Look at the choices, compare prices, think about what's important to you and go for the best quality your money can buy. College doesn't guarantee happiness and success, but it does help you make the best of your own life.</p>
<pre><code>* The average four-year college education at a public university
in Texas (in-state tuition and fees) costs about $17,500, less than the cost of the average new car.
* The annual income for a person with a bachelor’s degree is nearly twice that of someone with a high school diploma.
* You'll get more mileage out of a college education than you will from a used car, and that four-year education will likely enable you to buy a new car or two and many other things in your lifetime. In making the decision of whether - and where - to attend college, you and your parents should consider those four years as a lifetime investment, not just as annual expenses for job training.
[/quote]
</code></pre>
<p><a href="http://www.unt.edu/pais/howtochoose/why.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.unt.edu/pais/howtochoose/why.htm</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
If there is one thing the college system in America does do, it is to route the true academic superstars to the very top schools with scholarships.
[/quote]
I really can't believe anyone would say this with a straight face.
[quote]
What parents need to discern is that there is huge chasm between these few places and about 150 schools that are pretending to be on the same level that are not
[/quote]
Oh, wait. Now I understand. Sorry. Didn't realize you were from another planet (in this case the planet Naive). My mistake.</p>
<p>From the Bell Curve p.43 "Just ten schools soaked up 31% of the nation's students scoring over 700 on the SAT verbal and just two soaked up 10%"</p>
<p>Believe what you want to believe, but the chasm between the top 20 and the next 150 schools is as deep as the Grand Canyon and anyone who pretends that xxxx or yyyy is worth $45K per year the same as the top 20 is deluding themselves. </p>
<p>My argument is that for all but the very top students, the local state university is just fine and is a far better value than astronomically overpriced private schools. College, beyond about 20 schools is a true commodity and parents need to start treating it that way in their decisions.</p>
<p>The admissions frenzy has no basis, and we should not let the media falsely "harvardize" all these private schools.</p>