Admissions Odds?

College Majors Musical Theater Major
1

<p>At my daughter's kickoff college meeting recently, the couselor went over her transcript, objectives, etc. for academics, he was able to tell based on past students, which schools were reaches for her, which ones he thought were matches, etc. They have a whole database of past students' stats and admissions histories.</p>

<p>But as far as specialized dance/ theater programs, he admitted he had no idea.</p>

<p>So is there an analog to this in performing-arts land? What guideposts can she use to see whether it's even worth it to apply to a certain place? THere may be overal percent admit stats out there, but how does she know where she stands with respect to their whole applicant pool?</p>

<p>How can she tell which of the specialized schools might be better for her, based on what she particularly does or is interested in?</p>

2

<p>There has been much discussion about this topic if you search the MT thread. With the competitive programs, it is very hard to judge how anyone, even the very most talented people, will do. Many take around 5% of the applicants. Find some that you like and try for them. Also find some less competitive schools or non-audition schools to apply for. See the big list under the FAQ link. Some of these schools value grades and test scores. Others do not put much emphasis on academic record (some of the conservatories). Good luck!</p>

3

<p>What Ericsmom said is so true. MT auditioning is a different ball game than regular admissions. It is not black and white...this gpa or sat score gets you in. Look at Carnegie-Mellon for example.....they have extremely high standards for their acceptances for academic majors but their BFA MT program operates primarily as a conservatory and they consider mostly the audition for acceptance. </p>

<p>The odds are very small for most of the top programs and your d would definitely need backup options (just in case). My d is a junior who will be auditioning next year and she knows it's going to be competitive but where she fits in, she has no idea! Especially for girls! There are many more girls auditioning than guys out there for the same amount of spots. CMU takes around 10...5 boys and 5 girls. Very tough odds indeed! Impossible odds....if you look back at past year's acceptances on this forum you can see it. Very few even accepted to CMU, Michigan, CCM. There seems to be many more from this forum who get into NYU but they also take more kids. </p>

<p>How can she tell which might be better for her? She can read all about the programs...go back through the posts...so much info here. Some programs are more conservatory in their approach...some more dance focused, etc. So many variables. It's about finding ones she thinks fit her and taking about 8 of those and auditioning there. It's too competitive an area to say really say "I want to go here and that's it". You have to have options! </p>

<p>Good luck to her and Welcome to CC!</p>

4

<p>I'm thinking maybe the small admissions % of these places might be somewhat misleading to a degree. Because there are no guideposts to discourage the hopelessly unqualified from applying.</p>

<p>An academic kid who did well someplace in podunk but has 500 SATs might realize she is a huge reach for MIT, and then not bother applying. </p>

<p>But the kid who's done well in her local little dance program, but is actually the equivalent of the 500 SAT kid talent-wise, but nobobody's told her, and there are no tests to show this, so she doesn't know.. she might just go off and apply to Carnegie Mellon without realizing her chance is zero. So the admissions % is watered down with the clueless, to a degree, perhaps?</p>

5

<p>monydad, what you say is probably true, to an extent, for a certain percentage of the kids who end up auditioning at the most prestigious/reputable programs for MT. (Witness, as an equivalent, the number of hopeless pop star wannabes who come out each year for American Idol. :))</p>

<p>However, (from what I have gathered from reading on this forum for months), there are still a great number of talented, well trained and well prepared kids who come out for each of these programs. So many, in fact, that (as we have discussed earlier this week) a good number of truly qualified candidates don't get in, just because there isn't room!</p>

<p>That said, I would still think that talented and qualified students should still apply and should still audition, and should do their level best not to get tangled in knots, emotionally, thinking about the odds. Knowing the odds should just mean intelligently plotting a student's course so his or her list of applications and auditions includes some safeties, non audition programs, etc. </p>

<p>Remember: someone has to get in. Maybe it will be you.
LDE</p>

6

<p>First, kudos to NotMamaRose for offering very solid "advice"....Lisa....did you realize how knowledgeable you have become after reading CC that you now can advise others??? You're always saying you don't know anything but your D is just a soph and believe me, you have a good idea of what this process entails! </p>

<p>Monydad....what you say is partly true. Out of all those auditioning to get into BFA programs, not every single applicant is truly qualified or in the "ballpark". To be honest with ya, that is even true at elites like MIT....some apply who are VERY long stretches. So, yes, when you go to these auditions, there are some kids who are very inexperienced, like MT, haven't done that much or trained a whole lot. If it is any consolation, not every single applicant is a true contender for a spot. However, that is the good news but there are FAR more talented/qualified/experienced, whatever ya wanna call 'em kids, than slots available at any one particular BFA program. That's why you will find a real talented kid who got into college X's top BFA program but not college Y's top BFA program but some other highly talented kid got into Y but not X. Even the very talented kids can't win a spot at each of these programs because of the difficult odds. However, I think for someone who truly has what it takes, they will get into SOME where. That is why Lisa's advice (yes, YOU, Lisa! LOL) is quite apt.....even if you are qualified in this field, you can't pin your hopes on one particular program, because the odds are still tough amongst a very strong talented pool that is too big for the slots available for any one certain program. A kid should truly explore and come to like many different programs and keep an open mind. A balanced list also is important for most applicants. Most candidates who are appropriate candidates with very solid skills and qualifications, will get into some school or program. Often the ones totally shut out of any program aren't quite there yet in some facet of their background, and/or did not have a reasonable list. </p>

<p>Also, while the admissions odds at each of the programs is quite low, the odds are somewhat improved at the programs that are not the so called "top ones"....this is because either the top candidates who had several acceptances, may have taken a spot at a top program and opened the slots up at the programs slightly less "elite" and/or the applicant pool at certain programs is not as strong as at others. For instance, my child knows a lot of talented MT kids from all over and most of these kids applied to the top programs and some others (all got into at least one) but none applied to some of the programs discussed on this forum, so those kids weren't even in the applicant pool at certain BFA programs. Some students whom I counsel who either don't have good academic records and/or don't stand out talent wise in their artistic background, I encourage them to apply to particular BFA programs where I think the chances are a little better in the applicant pool. I don't like to name schools, but let's say more than half the schools listed on the list of 30 at the top of this forum, NONE of my D's friends applied to and they are all attending one of the other, perhaps more well known programs. So, those kids were not even in the applicant pool at certain colleges on that list. </p>

<p>The only thing that I disagree with Lisa is when she says that many qualified candidates don't get in.....that is only true when looking at ONE program...yes, very qualified kids get denied....but those very qualified kids got into some place....I have not seen any really qualified kids shut out compeletely (unless their list was really unreasonable in the first place.)</p>

<p>You asked what guideposts one can use to ascertain if they are in the ballpark for these BFA programs. This has been discussed on these forums before and I know I have contributed to those discussions. I think that a student can look at various benchmarks.....if a kid stands out in their high school or local community....you'll know that....either via casting over time, awards, or what not. They might get further indicators from instructors with whom they work. They may have done well in state wide award type things in this field, or may be selected for certain groups they audition to get into. They may have gone to a summer program and can see how they fare amongst a more talented pool of kids from all over. They can self assess amongst older kids they know who have gone to BFA programs...had they achieved similar things on their journey to that goal, and so forth. </p>

<p>While a variety of backgrounds can get you to be ready for consideration for a BFA program....the kids I personally know who have gotten in, have all attained some similar benchmarks....they all have been cast as leads either in their schools, community, summer programs, and the like. They all tend to get into the most select choral, dance, etc. groups in their areas. They all have attained awards or achievements of some sort....some All State thing or thespian thing or national award (need not have all of these but tend to have some sort of achievements or recognition), and generally tend to stand out in their local areas. They all have studied voice. Many have studied dance, and many have either studied acting or been in theater programs of one kind or another, and all have been in productions. What happens, then, however, is that you get the most talented kids from every region all vying for these BFA slots and so there are a lot of kids like this. But if your kid is kinda like this, she likely stands a solid chance in getting into a college BFA program, but you just can't predict which one will give her the nod. She needs to like way more than one, too.</p>

<p>As far as telling which school is better for your D....visit....explore and ask certain questions about each aspect of the program. Your D should develop her own criteria as to what she wants in a college and in a BFA program. How well does the school match her own criteria? There are questions to ask when visiting and finding out about a college and about a BFA program. Exam the literature and the curriculum. As well, if she can meet with any faculty or observe classes, great. Talking with current students will also be very beneficial. Often no one single program is like the perfect match in every way...though close. But she can then list attributes of each program/school....what is appealing, what is a drawback, etc. and it will become clearer which ones might fit the best. But after that, it really comes down to which accept her as it is a bit unpredictable and then you go from there. It is natural to have favorites but it is best not to pin one's hopes on any one particular school. Frankly, there is more than one school where your D can thrive, flourish and be happy, anyway. Once you visit and do thorough exploration...including reading right here on CC.....the more certain schools will pop up as right for your kid...each person wants something a little different...some want straight conservatory, some want strong liberal arts, some want big, some want small, etc. There is a finite number of BFA programs and so less to pick from than if going for regular college. I can tell you that the process of selecting a college list for my BFA kid was WAY simpler than for my liberal arts kid who had zillions to pick from and then to narrow it down. My child's BFA list was pretty set from the start, and narrowed a bit in that she wanted the eastern portion of the country and not including the south. There are not tons of schools in the first place. In fact, her list was VERY similar to the myriad of theater friends she had who also applied with just a couple of variations. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

7

<p>I guess if there are just a few places at the end of the day it's not so bad.</p>

<p>I was thinking that "visit" is the right answer ultimately, as you suggested, but that's a lot of work if you in reality have no chance but don't know it.</p>

<p>Not saying mine has no chance, BTW. I have an idea what she does, but not what the others do or where the bar is. I was just speaking in general. Reacting to the counselor's comments, confirming my suspicion that we'd get no useful guidance from him.</p>

8

<p>MonyDad, a typical guidance counselor will have no clue with regard to BFA programs. Ours certainly did not. We had to investigate on our own. CC can be an "education" for you and go back and read past threads and all the 40 "Parts" of the MT College threads...will take a long time but be quite informative. As well, in case you did not know or if you are interested, I work as a college counselor for CC, including with regard to BFA admissions (as well as regular college admissions) and we have various services available if you want that sort of individualized assistance. The link to read more about those options is: <a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/college_counseling/index.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeconfidential.com/college_counseling/index.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Back to your daughter...if she stands out in your local or regional area, you likely can tell. How she'd fare in a more talented pool, hard to say but I think she would be a contender because such a pool is made up of kids like that who each stand out in their local area. I know one eye opener to give perspective, for us, was in a summer program where those who attend were typically stand out theater kids from all over and so how the child fared in such a grouping or just seeing that talent pool, was another piece of information. If you personally know any kids who have gone to these college programs, you can sort of measure your child with what those kids did at her age and what their talents are and so forth, as a general idea. </p>

<p>Visits can ONLY help. You will get a sense of what the programs are like, who attends and so forth. Even go see a college production. </p>

<p>I doubt your child has "no chance". I don't know her but I'm sure if I were to learn all about what she has done so far, it would give SOME idea if she is reasonably thinking about this field, what she still can do and what sort of colleges best fit both her qualifications but also her interests. It is not an exact science but there are ways of evaluating whether she is in the ballpark or not, in every respect....there is also the academic piece as well. If your D truly excels in your area, stands out in that crowd, she likely is a viable candidate amongst other kids like her from around the country. If she has been training in the areas of voice, dance, and acting, and has achieved in those areas, then she likely is an appropriate candidate....but also there is assessing which type of program is right for her...the level of passion and commitment that is necessary for a BFA program and it is not right for all students, and so forth. But there is a lot that can be assessed and then an appropriate list can be suggested that goes hand in hand with such an evaluation. I know kids who love MT, haven't accomplished a real lot and haven't had that much training, who simply need to readjust their list.....perhaps some audition and non audition based BA programs, or BFA programs that are not at the "top" and so forth. Lots has to do with building the right list for each kid. Once you have an appropriate list, you should not be shut out of going to college. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

9

<p>I'm waiting a year to apply so I don't really know anything lol but I felt a lot better/less stressed when I found a non-audition program that I knew I could get into and really, really love it and thrive there (for me it was Northwestern Acting). If your daughter can find a place like that it will take a lot of the pressure off. Best of Luck!</p>

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<p>Soozievt: As a college counselor for CC in Musical theater, what exactly do you do for your clients? I am so curious. Do you actually go see them perform in some cases? It must be real interesting.</p>

11

<p>I know it's a fluke, but I personally know 2 students who are AMAZINGLY talented who did not get in ANYWHERE last year. They always had the lead in their school shows and both had excellent grades. They applied to about 8 schools each; all top programs, but still.... they're now attending a liberal arts college with no MT program. On the flip side, my d has done shows with people who aren't even in the same ballpark as these 2 and got into MT programs (maybe not the top tier, but still well respected ones). Currently, we know of 3 very talented friends who auditioned for CCM, Emerson, Penn State, and NYU. ONE of them got deferred at Penn State; the others didn't get in to the ones they auditioned at (they didn't all audition at all 4 schools; it was a mix). I would die of shock if none of them got into one of their top choices; they are ALL really talented (however, one of them doesn't have terrific grades). Sometimes it really is a crap shoot; that's all I can say!</p>

12

<p>In the end D will probably wind up looking at mostly academically-slanted BA programs. Very close to Danni's list from last year. With maybe just a couple of well-located and highly prominent BFA programs thrown in. (or maybe not). And more emphasis on dance. </p>

<p>But we'll see.</p>

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<p>Monydad, for some kids, based on what they want for college, a list like Dani's is the RIGHT one. There are many fine theater opportunities at certain BA schools, either in the theater departments or in very active extracurricular groups. I know some very talented MT kids who have chosen to apply to schools of that sort like Dani did....some are now at Yale, Harvard, Brown, Vassar, Tufts, Cornell, Penn, to name a few. I know some currently applying who have opted to apply to the likes of Northwestern, Yale, Brown, Cornell, but have also added a couple BFA programs like NYU, UMich, or CMU. I also know friends of my D who went off to Cornell and Tufts and who did not apply to any BFA programs (but have done extensive stuff in MT for years) who now are looking to transfer to a BFA program such as Tisch. I don't know enough about your D but it makes sense for certain students to apply to both BA and BFA options. I have a niece who is a junior looking to go into Acting and will also likely have some BA and BFA s schools on her list (also very good student like your D seems to be). Each kid has to think of what THEY want. </p>

<p>Goukla....sorry to take a while to get back to you. I have been gone all day on a trip to another state to see D1 in her event and got up at 5:30 to make that trip and am doing the same thing to another state tomorrow to see D2 in her event. I'm not online too much but will try now to answer your question and hope this is coherent and not full of typos! :D</p>

<p>You asked: "Soozievt: As a college counselor for CC in Musical theater, what exactly do you do for your clients? I am so curious. Do you actually go see them perform in some cases? It must be real interesting."</p>

<p>Let me start by clarifying that I work as a college counselor (though my time on the forums is strictly as a volunteer and because I came here originally as a parent 3 1/2 years ago and still enjoy participating as a parent on my own time), I not only counsel applicants for theater degree programs, but I advise students and their parents applying to any sorts of colleges. I ALSO deal with students who are applicants for theater programs as an additional "specialty". I'm going to answer with regard to the musical theater applicant as that is what you asked and is the topic of this forum. </p>

<p>There are a variety of counseling services that one can sign up for. In general, what I offer students.....
I evaluate their academic, personal, extracurricular, and theatrical background, guide in the selection of appropriate and desired colleges, assess chances of admission to target colleges, help in developing an individualized timeline for the college admissions process, help with choosing an appropriate program (ie., BA, BFA, BM....conservatory, etc.) and criteria for selection of a theater program, guide students through self-assesssment to identify "hooks" and strengths to highlight on their applications, guide them through the audition process and preparation of special requirements such as audition materials, headshots, and compilation of a theatrical resume, assist in every aspect of the application (excluding financial aid) which includes selection of essay topics, editing of essays and short answer questions, presentation of extracurricular achievements and academic recognition, offer suggestions of how to solicit the most effective letters of recommendation from teachers, guidance counselors, as well as suggestions regarding supplemental or artistic recommendations, suggest ways to make the most of college visits and appropriate contact with professsors, admissions officers, alumni and students, work with the student on how to continually express interest in particular colleges, prepare a student for alumni or on campus interviews, assist juniors with course planning, testing schedule, extracurricular choices and summer activities, and provide support for both the student and his/her parents through the entire process (including questions as they arise) until the waitlist (if necessary) and guide in choosing a college once acceptances are offered. </p>

<p>Depending on which counseling options a student signs up for, it often includes a thorough evaluation which includes academic, personal, extracurricular and artistic background....via review of the high school transcript (courses and grades), test scores (SAT, SAT2, ACT, AP), current class schedule, extracurricular and personal activities and accomplishments, awards, theater training and background, and an extensive student questionnaire that includes all these facets, and particular questions to do with theater and their background and interests and college criteria. I review the student's college search criteria, academic and career interests, and list of colleges and estimate their chances of admissions to their chosen schools. I provide suggestions of ways to highlight the student's strengths and accomplishments and address any weaknesses. I put together a list of colleges that would be most suitable for the student based on my findings from the evaluation and the student's college preferences and interests. It is also possible for a student to share samples via video, for example, though not all do. </p>

<p>I do the work of a college counselor but this does not substitute for the work that should be done with a vocal teacher/coach and acting teacher/coach to prepare for the auditions. I deal more with the entire process, which includes audition advice (all facets of that process), but the actual audition prep for the songs and monologues still must be done with the appropriate teachers in person. </p>

<p>Some families opt for specialized help with just one aspect of the process and not the entire thing....perhaps it is the essays, the resume, the interview, the college list.....and some opt for unlimited help for the entire senior (or junior or both) year. For those who sign up for a package, the consultations are UNLIMITED. </p>

<p>I hope that is an idea as to what I offer to applicants and their families. Many folks do NOT need a college counselor and feel comfortable researching everything and guiding their child through it. but some students and their families find the college selection and application process overwhelming. Some don't have the knowledge or time or desire to go through this on their own and some feel better getting support navigating this process. As a counselor, I can serve as a student's personal resource in identifying colleges that best "fit" a student's specific preferences, personality and individual needs and help present the student's unique accomplishments, talents and abilities in the best possible way. I can devote undivided attention, when a school guidance counselor may be assigned too many students, as well as many responsibilities other than college counseling. With theater applicants, many GC's simply aren't that aware of the programs, the audition process, or even the odds. I try to help the student achieve his/her goal of finding the best colleges for them and to achieve a successful admissions outcome. </p>

<p>MANY people feel just fine doing all of this on their own, and do it well, in fact. Many need or want the support and assistance of an independent college counselor. Each family approaches this process differently. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

14

<p>Wow, Susan, thanks for saying that I am not entirely an ignoramus (anymore) when it comes to some of this MT admission stuff. But I am smart enough to know that there is a ton I don't know, and I keep reading the list here in order to learn, so that our family will be as prepared as possible when the time comes (in a few years) for my own D to take the plunge. </p>

<p>Thanks, too, for carefully outlining what a trained counselor such as yourself is available to do for families/students who want to apply for college level BFA programs. It sounds pretty extensive and time consuming on your end, but definitely valuable. Is it expensive? How does counseling for entrance into MT programs compare with, say, counseling for non-performance-related college admissions, or is there no difference?</p>

<p>Lisa </p>

<p>PS: I hope you had a good time visiting your D at her event. It sounds as if she is really enjoying life at school and is very, very busy!</p>

15

<p>Soozie: Thanks for the extensive explanation of the world of applying for MT or Theater college. You sure spelled out what all is entailed. I don't think I've ever seen it listed like that. We parents/coaches/teachers are amazing, aren't we? Ha!</p>

16

<p>Gkoukla, well, thanks. I have worn those hats so see it from different angles. I was a teacher for years in public school, and have also taught at several different colleges. I've played the parent role, including in the college process. Then I was trained in college counseling and have worked as a college counselor for a few years. I've kinda seen it from those different lenses. As they say, it takes a village. </p>

<p>Lisa....there are several different counseling options which are outlined on the College Counseling link to the left of this page. The most comprehensive option that includes all those things I mentioned above are our packages and they include unlimited help over a long period of time. There are Senior Packages and also Junior/Senior Packages. These tend to be the most popular options. But we also do Hourly Counseling which can be useful for help with a particular aspect of the process. We do initial evaluations and building of a college list. Some opt to get help with just the essay process and we have smaller packages for that sort of thing. The difference between a Senior (or Junior/Senior) Musical Theater Package and a regular Senior (or Junior/Senior) package is that the MT package does everything the regular one has but ALSO the things specific to the MT process and as you know, this process entails more aspects and so besides all the regular services, there is the specific help with choosing the appropriate type of theater program and criteria related to that, along with guidance through the audition process and preparation of special requirements, including auditoin materials, headshots, and compilation fo a theatrical resume and so forth. In my earlier post I was describing the musical theater or drama counseling services so you'd take those couple of things out that I just referred to and you'd get the regular services. There is a cost difference between a Drama/MT package and a regular package but the cost difference is not substantial. The bulk of the cost is the regular part of the college counseling process and basically the MT/Drama part is kind of an add onto the regular packages. Go to the links and if you have further questions, feel free to email me at: <a href="mailto:susant@collegeconfidential.com">susant@collegeconfidential.com</a>. I don't really want to discuss details like costs and such on the forum but am happy to answer those general questions here. The info. is on the website and then I am available to answer your specific questions in email, if you wish. </p>

<p>And yes, we enjoyed seeing both of our girls in their events this weekend....just further to travel than their HS events!</p>