<p>Y'know, Zagat, I think sometimes my kids were at a big advantage going to the public, decidedly not "feeder school" (average SAT just over 900) that they went to. The few who aimed high really stuck out, and generally ended up at great schools (not HYPS, but the next rung down). They weren't competing against each other, and they aren't burdened by expectations. If someone one ends up at Tufts, not Harvard, or Lehigh, not Penn, it's not a defeat around here. Plus, our HS costs less!:)</p>
<p>My contrarian point of view: part of the reason for the insanity is that people are using a TOP-DOWN approach to college selection rather than a BOTTOM-UP approach.</p>
<p>There are plenty of EXCELLENT schools out there that are not heartbreakingly hard to get into. EVERY student, no matter how smart or talented they are, should start their college search by looking at these schools first. Once you've selected the schools you have a great shot at getting into, move on to the "top schools" which are basically lottery schools for everyone. Add a few knowing that you already have a solid base of schools you are likely to get into and where you can be happy. But first: cast a wide net. </p>
<p>Of course, I'm sure this post will prompt a slew of complaints from parents and students saying "My Kid just COULDN'T be happy at one of those LESSER colleges. He won't be surrounded by his intellectual peers! He (or she) has worked SO HARD and DESERVES to be in one of the top schools! We won't settle for less." No problem - every one has a right to choose their poison, and there is nothing wrong with aiming high AFTER you have built a solid foundation. But, if you only focus on lottery schools, expect a lot of angst and, sometimes, serious disappointment.</p>
<p>Carolyn - You've said it again, and said it as well and succinctly as you ever have. When, oh when, oh when, will we stop letting USN&WR tell us what schools are worthy of our kids?</p>
<p>Kids at my son's private school did far better than our local very well-regarded public school. I think in large part it comes down to expectations. </p>
<p>I do feel that my son spent a lot more time exploring his "safeties" than his friends at the public school.</p>
<p>Garland, in life, those with lesser expectations often are happiest. </p>
<p>Carolyn, wouldn't it make sense? But what do you think the chances really are of getting people to change their perspectives? The marketing budgets of Harvard to WUSL to Vassar say people won't.</p>
<p>I believe S's public high school outperformed most of the privates in college placements. The public has a bimodal distribution with kids who are going to college attending top tier colleges. It is basically, with some exceptions, top tier or not at all. The pressure came from all the unknowns more than the disappointment in admission. At S's high school they had a public rejection board where students posted their rejection letters. Some students who did not get any said they felt left out! My kid was very pleased with his ultimate decision, but found it hard to turn down schools that had shown him some love.</p>
<p>My D just graduated from HS, and is working on her Facebook. She is embarrassed, because the counselors did not attempt to encourage kids to apply to reach schools at all. They only knew TX schools, and most of the people on her Facebook are TX unis. She has one Stanford, and if her other 2 friends sign on,, she will have one MIT and one Rice. The kids sought these out on their own, did what they had to do without much, if any help, and considering there were 604 grads, there should be more going to higher tier schools. Yet, even in the top 10 of the class, they chose (without looking at anything else) TX schools. One did go ivy, (top 10%) not one of her friends, Cornell on a sports scholarship - recruited. Last year, one got in at H for sports - we know she wouldn't have gotten in otherwise. So, in 2 yrs, only 2 ivy athletes, and no others. Now, I am NOT saying that everyone of those kids should go to an ivy, nor are they necessarily the right schools for some of these kids, but my D was the only one to apply at any of the top LAC's. The others didn't even attempt it, and that was because the push in TX public HS's is to get into one of the state unis, and counselors are at a loss as to what to do for anyone who wants to apply elsewhere. The kids have to do it all on their own, and you know how easy that is, with the competetive nature of upper tier schools. I attended parent's night at the school and nothing outside of A&M and UT were mentioned by the counselors, and those were the only 2 schools that had tables there that night. On college night, there were many schools, but HPY never showed up.<br>
As to the interviews, my D has always had an easier time of talking to adults than other kids, but her Y interviewer had been retired for a number of years, and went when the student body was all male. Clearly a difficult situation for a young woman trying to click with an old engineer when she is soc studies, lit oriented. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that the kids can't interview - it just means that the interviewer wasn't necessarily the right person to interview that student. She and I firmly believe that had she had a different interviewer, she would have done much better. Suffice it to say, she had no difficulty with the P, Middlebury, Georgetown, etc. interviews. And her admits, W/L, etc. reflect how she felt after each interview.</p>
<p>I understand what you are saying about your school and its counseling, but I hope your D is not "embarrassed" that other kids on the Facebook will see that her friends are not primarily attending prestigious schools. The Facebook is for fun and keeping in touch with old friends and meeting new friends, not impressing others.</p>
<p>I was thinking the same thing, MOT. Some of S's friends are at "prestigious" schools, some less so, but no one seems to feel awkward about it, and both my kids kind of enjoy having friends from school visit us and see the "real" world.</p>
<p>Zagat: Not so much "lesser" expectations, as realistic ones. The kids who really belong at the "elites" generally get there,but the rest don't feel they need to inflate themselves to aim at certain schools because of an expectation that they "should" go to them.</p>
<p>mini is right. There are fantastic faculty in hundreds and hundreds of institutions. There is no rational reason to be "unhappy" if a student has a brilliant opportunity to attend college or university. </p>
<p>garland is right. The kids who get into the top schools belong there. They know who they are and their peers know who they are. Though one does meet the oddly bitter parent, one rarely meets a bitter student. </p>
<p>Bitterness is still uncommon. In point of fact, one is more likely to meet a surprised parent; ie the "I can't believe they took him!" <em>claps hands together and grins from ear to ear</em> type, public or private.</p>
<p>Evitajr, if it's any consolation, the college counselors at my D's high school were pretty worthless once you got beyond the local CC, the Cal States, the UC's, and maybe a couple of private schools like Stanford, USC, and Loyola Marymount. The kids/parents looking at LAC's and other out-of-state schools really had to be their own counselors.</p>
<p>I rarely have compliments for guidance counselors, but I realize that, regarding advocating "lesser" schools, they face a vicious circle. Parents and students, being less familiar with LAC and "lesser" choices balk at being presented with such "lowly" choices. Does the "After spending this much money at this school, all you have is some type of junior college like ... (fill the blanks with schools that are NOT on the VERY first page of USNEws)" The reality is that it takes a lot more work and "convincing" for GC to recommend schools that are not Ivy household names, local, or known for their sport rankings. </p>
<p>I assume that, after a while, GC start following the path of least resistance and build a list of safety, matches, and reaches that "sound" better to parents and their friends and families.</p>
<p>Garland, I'll stick with "lesser" as "realistic" is elusive for many.</p>
<p>She isn't embarrassed for herself - she is embarrassed about the school's culture of lack of ambition, that others didn't even try for other schools, that they didn't have the ambition to try. At the top ten ceremony for our district, in the program, each student was listed by what school they hoped to get into - and our school had one Rice, MIT, Stanford, and U of Ch. Another school in our district had all 10 top tier schools - the climate there is different. The stats of those students weren't any different or better than ours, but that school has counselors who at least recommend applying. Not necessarily that they are guaranteed, but that they have the stats, and maybe...so they at least aspire to more than the local state uni. (And there is nothing wrong with the local state uni - ours are rated very well). In fact, it was my D's safety. My D is embarrassed about the climate at her school - not trying or applying. Not because the kids are in "lesser" schools, but that they just didn't even try for anything else.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I don't think the college counselor's at D's high school even know that much about Pomona or CMC or Scripps...good LAC's less than an hour away. And it's not a case of recommending "lesser" schools. They're just very UC-focused.</p>
<p>D's high school routinely sends students to a nice selection of schools that includes Yale, Stanford, Harvard, U/Chicago, <cough!> Smith, etc. but it's invariable that the drive and direction comes from the student/parents, not info provided by the counselors.</cough!></p>
<p>Folks perception is that the UC's are cheaper but some of these other colleges especially the Claremonts are quite good with fin aid. The reality is that finances drive much of these decisions and 60% of students from our high school who get into many great schools still end up at the U of A due to the great scholarships. Students that live at home would actually make money going to college.</p>
<p>Arizonamom--</p>
<p>my experience in our neck of Southern Cal is that the kind of kids who gravitate towards the UCs are mainly solidly middle-class kids. Parents make too much to get $25,000 a year fin aid grant from the Claremonts (which is about what it would take to equalize a UC to Pomona money-wise), yet paying $45,000 a year for college from parental budgets is not going to happen. UCs are a very cost effective way to get a quality education if you are an instate applicant.</p>
<p>TheDad--our GCs have heard of the Claremont Colleges, but we haven't sent anyone there in my memory. The kind of kids who can get into Pomona can usually get into Stanford or HYP, and so far haven't chosen a Claremont College. The other applicants were rejected. Not much buzz about the Claremont Colleges in northern San Diego County.</p>
<p>Too bad. . .if I could live life over again, I wouldn't mind going there for college.</p>
<p>Socal from a private school view: Cal and UCLA are the only UCs really in play at our school. Parents will beg, borrow and steal for ivies and the like. Stanford especially! They're already spending $25K/yr for high school.</p>
<p>Yes, the <em>net</em> cost of private schools for students from non-wealthy families is one of those stories that doesn't get out there the way it should.</p>
<p>Speaking of SoCal private schools, I no longer have a current line into Harvard-Westlake but I know there were some considerable disappointments last year about some anticipated acceptances at HYPSM that did not come about.</p>
<p>Ellemenope, I also would probably be looking at an LAC if I had it to do over again. Except for maybe Georgetown. </p>
<p>Hmmm...there's an interesting pointless exercise...where <em>would</em> I apply? I think for the gedanken experiment I would have to posit that I would have the wisdom not to go to engineering school in the first place.</p>
<p>I think the entire admissions process is insane. The insanity is most obvious for the kids with very high SAT's trying to get into the ivies and top schools. The process is just as insane for kids with 1200, 1300 and 1400 SAT's who are trying to get into a school which offers more than the local State U. The insanity begins because the schools do not have objective criteria for selection. Most schools have been trying to get away from relying heavily on the SAT's. So they look at GPA and rank in class. There is tremendous variation in the academic rigor and quality of high schools so that approach does not work. Next they have tried to add essays. It is not worth the effort to describe why that approach does not work. Next they look for "special" students and hooks - more unverified BS on a piece of paper. I guess they also use recommendations which is dependent largely on how much time and skill the teachers and GC's devote to this endless process. They sometimes use alumni interviews where there are untrained interviewers and no standardization in the process.</p>
<p>The application process is also crazy because the schools are playing the marketing game, trying to be selective with a high yield. They are likely to turn down a strong candidate if they think that student is likely to go somewhere else. </p>
<p>The internet has added to the insanity. Because of the arbitrary nature of the process and the games the schools play, it makes sense to apply to a lot of schools. The internet makes this easy and schools are buried in applications. Some of the big schools have 30000 or more applications to deal with. You can bet that they do not want to spend a lot of time and money carefully evaluating each one.</p>
<p>Finally there are the games which are played with need and merit scholarships. The schools are worse than used car salesmen. They are not interested in fairness to the students, just maximizing their cash from tuition. </p>
<p>To top that off, my D wanted a double major in sciences and music. For many schools, she had to submit two separate applications, and deal with separate admissions processes in the same institution. She ended up with 16 applications - all with essays and other special requirements - in addition to 9 alumni interviews, numerous school visits, and I believe 8 auditions.</p>