Advanced Standing Exams

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1

<p>i'm looking for some general advice on whether or not i should take these? </p>

<p>i'm mainly thinking about 5.111 and 7.012/3. a couple of specific questions:
1. does the ase for 5.111 also include material from 5.112? i just finished watching the ocw lectures for 5.111 and was wondering if i also need to watch the 5.112 ones.
2. are there different ase's for 7.012 and 7.013? or is there just one ase that covers material for all three diff intro bio courses?</p>

<p>and about the physics one. i'm not seriously considering it b/c i'm not the brightest physics student, but i was looking at the stats and it seems that a large percent of the people taking the physics ase's pass? and that percent is significantly higher than the chem one... but i also thought physics at mit was extremely difficult??</p>

<p>and for anyone who's taken and passed these ase's: was it really worth it to pass out of the intro classes? like did it make future classes more difficult because you didn't actually take the class?</p>

<p>and there are no ase's for hass classes, right?</p>

<p>thanks in advance!!</p>

2

<p>There is only a 7.012 ASE. Since I never took a 7.01x, I don’t know what the ASE covers with regard to each 7.01x’s content, but I imagine the test either covers only topics that are common to all three 7.01x versions, or some amalgam of 7.012/3 (the two versions most similar to one another) material.</p>

<p>

Physics is tough, but the material in 8.01/8.02 is stuff you see in AP Physics C. On the other hand, intro chem courses at MIT cover many topics the average high schooler will not have encountered before.</p>

<p>

  1. Yes. I thought not having to take certain intro classes was invaluable. 2) Not that there’s really a way to judge this, but I don’t think so. In fact, I can’t remember a single class where I had to draw on something specific I learned in a previous class in order to do well.</p>
3

<p>I have the same questions when my son was freshman. Will he get into trouble with more advanced class ? The answer is no, if you can pass it, you will have no problem.<br>
What is the advantage ? It depends on indivual. For my son, it means he can take more advanced class in physics, biology and Math.<br>
He told me ASE for 8.02 is easy. For 7.01, he looked at the problem set in OCW. For chemistry, there is a sample test somewhere in the Chemistry department. He brought the textbook and read it. It is the only one more difficult.</p>

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<p>My advice is:</p>

<p>If you can ASE something, ASE it. You will leave more room to take more interesting/advanced classes during P/NR, which means you’ll get an advantage when you’ll be on grades in the spring. For example, people who ASE 18.02, 18.03, can take 18.100B/18.701 1st semester during P/NR. Those classes are proof based and notoriously difficult, but since they took it during P/NR, they can be a lot more relaxed, while learning a lot of proof techniques that will be extremely useful later on for other math classes. I passed out of a few ASE’s, but I definitely regret not taking more.</p>

<p>I can see a reason why you might want to not ASE sth: You will major in that field and want the best exposure possible. I’ll give a specific example. Some people might not want to ASE 8.01/8.02, because they will major in physics and want to take 8.012/8.022. My advice is, just ASE the class, and take an advanced class (8.09) on Mechanics fall Semester. 8.09 (Classical Mechanics III) actually covers new material while 8.012 (Class. Mech. I for masochist) covers old AP physics with a bunch of vector calc. I also think that if you are a physics major, it would be a lot more exciting to take a theoretical class at an advanced level freshman year because it will help you determine if you REALLY like physics, and make you more excited/motivated to learn (at the same time, if you really can’t handle that class, you can always NR it, and still learn sth on the way).</p>

<p>Now, on the ASE’s themselves:

  • THe difficulty of the 5.111 ASE does not stem from the difficulty of the problem solving per se. Rather, it’s a combination of advanced/specific material on MO theory/Crystal field theory that makes it hard. My advice is: Watch the 5.112 lectures, especially the ones on Crystal field theory, Ligand-field theory, and MO theory, and learn the shapes of your wave functions really well. BTW, I think the Chem ASE is WAY harder than a 5.111 test. MIT probably doesn’t want you to pass out of chem I guess.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>There’s only 1 ASE for 7.012, and that one is pretty problem-solving based, so just learn genetics problem solving techniques by practicing on the ocw website (the psets are very helpful)</p></li>
<li><p>In terms of difficulty, the physics/ math ASE’s are the easiest. Definitely try to take 18.02/18.03 ASE’s if you had them in high school or if you learn some vector calc/ODE’s on the way. Those classes are not the most exciting math classes to take anyway.</p></li>
<li><p>Suprisingly, the physics ASE’s are pretty easy too. the 8.02 ASE is like an AP exam, except it has more calculus and some E&M waves stuff, but those things are pretty easy to self study. It’s true physics can be really tough here, but the ASE’s don’t work that way. I do see the point that you might want to take 8.022 even if you had 5’s on your physics AP’s, because that class covers a lot of vector calc techniques in E&M, which can be useful later.</p></li>
</ul>

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<p>thanks, faraday!!</p>

<p>and another question. if i fail an ase, nothing, absolutely nothing, goes on my record, right? and i don’t mean the transcript. because if i’m applying to med schools, i’m worried that the fact that i failed an ase might be reported if that med school wanted to see hidden grades or something.</p>

<p>@faraday, did you pass out of 5.111/2? is the ase harder than even a 5.112 test?</p>

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<p>also, there are some types of question on the psets that weren’t covered in the lectures, ie diffraction (in the second pset), so should i know those too? these types of problems also weren’t on the exams…</p>

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<p>Yep, as a frosh, you are on P/NR. so if you NR’ed it, nothing happens.</p>

<p>However, there are a few select med schools that will look at grades during P/NR, so I’m not sure what they’ll do with ASE grades: I would advise you phone one of those med schools (JHU). I just noticed you are a premed. In that case, I don’t advise you to ASE too many stuff, because you’ll have to still do 1 yr of chem/bio/math/physics, regardless of how many classes you place out of.</p>

<p>I did not pass out of 5.11x. I arrived late to the test, so I didn’t have enough time (haha… CPW can be very distracting for an AS’er), but I can tell you that test was WAAAA…aaaYYY harder than the 5.112 final. I studied less for ALL of 5.112 than I did for the ASE, and ended up with an A+.</p>

<p>Whatever that is on pset is fair game for tests, although I don’t think diffraction will be covered. Diffraction is just a special case of interference for continuous sources: both of them come from Huygen’s principle and the physics behind is quite interesting (why the heck should Huygen’s principle even be correct??), but the coverage in 5.112 is quite qualitative and superficial.</p>

8

<p>

But passing an ASE gives a student credit for the course as if he had taken the course at MIT – AFAIK, taking an ASE and passing would be equivalent in a medical school’s eyes to having taken the class at MIT, because there’s not a way for the medical school to tell the difference.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Confirmed and seconded, as long as you got a grade for it (pass or letter grade - I think this happens if you ASE past your first semester) via taking the ASE. Transfer credit, on the other hand, may not count because you only have credit but no grade.</p>

<p>Also, I’m doing the AMCAS now and I got confirmation that NO med school in the US requests hidden grades now from MIT, including JHU, so people don’t have to worry what they got first semester.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Chris, and good luck filling out your application! (I feel like “good luck” isn’t really the appropriate wish here, but “have fun” doesn’t really do it, either. “It must be exciting”?) :)</p>

<p>And good thing about JHU. I always thought requesting hidden grades from MIT applicants was a really jerky thing to do.</p>

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<p>

This is not true. The official transcript marks all grades received via ASE with an “&” (and explains what the “&” means). AP credit is, of course, also marked uniquely.</p>

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<p>so does this mean that since the mit premed site suggests “that AP credit not be used toward fulfilling school requirements. Additional upper level coursework may be required in lieu of the use of AP credit,” i shouldn’t try to ase chemistry…? or use my bc calc ap to get credit for 18.01 because i might have to do “additional upper level coursework”…? has anyone who’ve applied to med school actually had problems with this…?</p>

<p>and also, i noticed that jhu requires a laboratory physics class…? but mit doesn’t have any?</p>

<p>sorry for almost turning this into a premed thread.</p>

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<p>

This is what Chris is saying above – ASE credit is acceptable by medical schools for the premed requirements, while AP credit often is not.

</p>

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<p>wait so i shouldn’t use my bc calc ap credit?</p>

<p>but most med schools say one year of calculus… so shouldn’t 18.02 also count as calculus?</p>

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<p>18.02 is only one semester of calculus.</p>

<p>I have heard of premeds using AP credit for 18.01, then taking 18.02 and 18.03 (differential equations) at MIT to fulfill a year of calculus, and also because many MIT premeds apply to the Harvard/MIT HST program, which requires 18.03.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, but ASEs can be used for med schools. Several people asked about this in the premed sessions I attended and they (premed advising) said it’s generally not a problem. It’s pointless to make someone take the class again when they tested out of the class in the first place. ASEs are different than AP credit because ASEs are offered by the Institute with grades and cannot be considered the same as AP credit, which many med schools do not take. In my original response, I was referring to the fact that you can use the ASE for place out of the intro classes and not referring to the grade denotation. I’m aware that ASE grades are indicated as such on the transcript.</p>

<p>The only complicating class is 8.01 and 8.02, since it’s considered “lecture w/ lab” at MIT for the AMCAS, and if you place out of one or both you are missing physics lab on your med application, and I don’t think placing out of lab classes is very well justified. You should consult the premed advising office for details but you’ll either still have to take 8.01/8.02 for lab credit or take the actual physics lab (which is not very recommended…haha). So, regarding your JHU question, 8.01/8.02 is your “laboratory physics.”</p>

<p>Also, AP credit is denoted as “S” on the MIT transcript, or “G” on AMCAS. I’ve only taken 18.02 and used BC credit for 18.01. Again, shouldn’t be a problem. BC calc is widely used for single variable calc credit everywhere, and this is one class med schools are generally more okay with for AP credit since so many people learn single variable calc now in high school. That AP clause is generally intended for classes like basic biology, chemistry, and physics where they don’t want you to place out of without having taken the equivalent university version. </p>

<p>(Even so, the Class of 2010 and above used to be able to place out of 7.01x with AP Bio credit and out of the premeds I know in that class nobody has gotten in trouble with this, so…interpret as you will)</p>

<p>It’s really not as bureaucratic and strict as it sounds on paper. Med schools know about MIT’s rigor and system (especially towards 8.01/8.02) and they don’t usually nitpick around everything like you think they would.</p>

<p>Also, I don’t think 18.03 can technically be considered “calculus.” Calculus is really 18.01 and 18.02 and the advanced version that has 3 digits (don’t know what the course number is, haha).</p>

<p>Bottom line, go ahead and ASE chemistry and don’t take 18.01 again.</p>

<p>EDIT: Also, Transfer Credit is also marked with “S” on the transcript, and similarly with AP credit the real impounding factor with this is the lack of a grade. You only see the credit, but no feedback on what score you received. I should have mentioned this above too, but this is also the big difference between ASEs and AP credit - one provides feedback on your performance, and the other one just indicated that you did the equivalent coursework. This is perhaps the reason why med schools are more cautious with taking too much AP credit.</p>

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<p>An alternative, I believe to retake 8.01 and 8.02 is to take 8.02 and 8.03 (8.03 also has a lab component to it). </p>

<p>Also, pleeeaaase, don’t retake a class just to avoid higher level classes. 1st, you are going to MIT so you might as well learn sth new. 2nd, P/NR is your last chance to experiment with challenging courses. 3rd, higher level classes will probably make you more excited and fulfilled (more interesting material than GIR’s). I know many premeds doing that, and I feel it’s very saddening.</p>

<p>Also, 18.02/18.03/18.06 will be very useful regardless of what you plan to do, and the difficulty is pretty homogeneous across those classes (in fact, I bet 18.03/18.06 sometimes is easier than 18.02 depending on the term), so don’t feel like you should not skip 18.01/18.02. The really “difficult” math classes, which some might call upper level, come with 18.10x, 18.70x, etc… (analysis sequence or other proof based classes).</p>

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<p>

And I was referring to this:</p>

<p>

… and not anything else.</p>

<p>Any allowance medical schools make for class credit achieved via ASE is not because they cannot determine which classes were ASE’d out of in the first place.</p>

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<p>so, another question.
if i don’t pass the 5.11x ase, should i take 5.111 or 5.112?</p>

<p>and about 5.111, i’ve been learning from drennan&taylor and i really like their lectures… plus their rating is much higher than the other 5.111 lecturers, as well as the 5.112 lecturers. but i also wanted to take 5.111 in the fall and 7.01x in the spring…
would it be worth it to take 7.01x in the fall and 5.111 in the fall so that i can get the better lecturers…?</p>

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<p>and another question about sophomore standing, exactly what do they mean by ‘completing most of your girs’. does 4 out of 6 count as ‘most’?</p>