Advantage of being a double legacy

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
21

<p>“Very true, and that does make ND special and different–it also makes it a much more homogeneous place.”</p>

<p>Legacy students have two things in common (which they share with their non-legacy classmates) – most of them self-identify as Catholic, and most of them are passionately fond of Notre Dame. That makes them “homogenous” only if you assume that all Catholics are the same, which is absurd. They come from every state in the country and all over the world, from every conceivable cultural background. Catholics as a group are far more diverse than, say, blacks or Jews, most of whom are completely predictable in their voting habits and political views. On any hot-button issue, you will find Catholics in general and Notre Dame students in particular on both sides. Diversity means more than just different skin tones and accents.</p>

22

<p>How about diversity re: beliefs on the role of women in society (and the church) and their rights (e.g. abortion), the use of contraception, homosexuality and sexual preference, etc.? How does the student population (and administration and faculty) at ND fall on those important topics? What kind of discussions are occurring at ND on these socially relevant topics? I agree completely with the notion that there are other types of diversity than simply ethnicity and geographic–in fact, that is my point. In the last decade, ND has made tremendous strides to overcome its atrocious identity as an ethnically homogeneous place. The diversity of ideas is where the institution now needs to focus if it truly wishes to become a diverse place. My exposure to ND (which includes family members who attend or attended the school, friends in graduate/professional programs there, and a half dozen faculty members) is that it is FAR behind the curve in promoting and advancing the diversity of ideas that should be at the heart of an undergraduate experience. This fact is reiterated by all of the aforementioned individuals who are/have been part of the ND community. They also reiterate the notion that it is likely the consequence(perhaps even unintended) of the very things that ND is most proud of–its campus atmosphere, school pride, tight alumni connection. Other schools experience the same double-edge phenomenon–look at UVA, with its strong social structure and traditions that have come to define the place (eg secret socities, strong greek (especially fraternity) system, etc). The difference between ND and UVA, however, is that UVA looks at itself critically, realizing the potential negatives associated with its positives (e.g. the parts of this “tradition” which contributed to the murder of one of its students by another student), and reflects and works to try to address them. ND simply ignores its negative side and expects others to do the same–“just admit we are diverse”–OK, so you’re “ND diverse,” but not diverse in the ways most colleges consider essential in promoting a complete undergraduate experience.</p>

23

<p>Sryrstress–Why the name-calling? Why are you so offended by the comments of someone who knows the institution well, identifies the school’s strengths AND weaknesses, and discusses them on a college forum in an appropriate way (and an appropriate place)? How are these antics? I am happy your S turned down schools in New Haven (assuming you are referring to Yale and not Albertus Magnus College) and Durham (likely Duke and not North Carolina Central University) to attend ND if ND is the best place for him–but can I ask why? Was it because he felt South Bend was a better place to attend school than New Haven or Durham? I suspect not. Was it because ND has better academics than Yale and Duke?–I suspect not (unless he is delusional). My guess is it was because of the atmosphere of ND, and all of the positive things that we are talking about. High school kids on this forum are trying to sort out where they should go to school. Unfortunately, for many of them, it comes down to rankings by a magazine. But colleges are different beyond the (somewhat arbitrary) rankings, and ND provides a VERY different college experience in some key ways–some people will find that difference VERY appealing; others will find it VERY unappealing. Why not spell it out and not be so defensive about it?</p>

<p>I transferred from Duke to Georgetown because I realized I wanted a different college experience than Duke provides. I wanted to be part of a city that enhanced the educational, cultural, and social experience of my undergraduate years. I wanted an academic environment that had a greater emphasis on real-world applications to what I was learning in the classroom and that had a greater commitment to using what you learn in the service of others. It was not Duke’s mistake that I decided to transfer; it was my mistake in initially choosing Duke and in not being particularly clear about or knowing what I wanted my undergraduate experience to be like. Duke is “better” than Georgetown in certain ways; Georgetown is “better” than Duke in certain ways. Georgetown was better for me in more ways than Duke was–not that that will be the case for everyone. I don’t think everyone should choose Georgetown over Duke, nor do I feel that anyone who chooses Duke or ND is foolish. This forum should be an opportunity for prospective students to hear about the nature of these institutions in both biased and unbiased fashions. I have no vested interested in the decision your son made (or anyone would make) in choosing ND over Yale or Duke–I just KNOW that the diversity of ideas held and presented at Yale (and probably Duke) is greater than the diversity of ideas held and presented at ND, and to portray ND as being as or more diverse as other institutions in that regard is simply fiction.</p>

24

<p>claremarie: As you well know, diversity is a very subjective thing, and people who are addicted to seeking it usually set up a hothouse version of it. I’ve pointed out on other threads how I’ve found that among the friends of my own children at Notre Dame and other more “liberal” (I really do have to use quotation marks) schools those from the latter tend to be far more predictable (I might even say lockstep) in their views. One might also mention how often conservative speakers are shouted down and even physically attacked by “liberal” students, and how speech codes are a “liberal” phenomenon. I fail to see the benefit of racial diversity if it’s enforced through a virtual quota system and/or does little to promote an atmosphere in which students aren’t AFRAID to express opposing views, or to say the wrong thing to the wrong person. If schools truly wanted their student bodies to represent a political and intellectual cross-section of society they would do better to treat applicants more fairly, not as samples of this or that race. I once attended an admissions session at Vassar, during which a counselor made the comment: “If you’re a white suburban female from the Northeast, you’d better have a lot of backup schools.” No one should ever be ostracized in this way; no one should be viewed as a low-demand commodity. And students at Notre Dame shouldn’t have to apologize for who they are.</p>

25

<p>No one should have to apologize for who they are, but don’t pretend to be something your not either. By the way, what makes you think I am liberal? Because I value open and honest discussion?</p>

26

<p>hoyasaxa: I wasn’t directing my comments to you at all; I was talking about diversity in general terms, and what it means at “liberal” institutions. Anyone who thinks that any particular model of planned diversity is neutral is delusional; every model reflects a particular aim and agenda. Academia will never be a microcosm of the rest of the world; professors will continue to crank out books that nobody reads and adhere to political beliefs that are utopian and often positively loony (I won’t touch on what happens when academics take over governments). If colleges and universities were really concerned about diversity they might, say, consider ameliorating the overwhelmingly liberal bias of their faculties in a society in which about 20% identify themselves as liberal.</p>

27

<p>“My exposure to ND (which includes family members who attend or attended the school, friends in graduate/professional programs there, and a half dozen faculty members) is that it is FAR behind the curve in promoting and advancing the diversity of ideas that should be at the heart of an undergraduate experience.”</p>

<p>There are hundreds of faculty members at Notre Dame. I know considerably more than six of them, and can safely say that you don’t know what you are talking about. Notre Dame faculty are just as “diverse” as those at Duke or Georgetown. There are (sadly) plenty of Obama stickers on cars in the faculty lots, and numerous faculty members attended last year’s graduation and were nearly weeping with joy at his presence there. Many faculty are not Catholic, or are Catholic in name only, and reject Church teachings on all of the hot-button (and predictable) issues you mentioned. You will find a wide range of opinions and beliefs on campus. You will NOT find that same range at Duke or Georgetown.</p>

28

<p>You provide an interesting view of ND which is not held by most other people, both at/affiliated with the institution or in academia. I do hope that ND is as you describe–maybe Ave Maria University will take the place ND had in the past, and ND can now join the ranks of all of the other colleges which you profess are similar (or, in fact, less diverse than ND). I feel like it is “Opposite day” or something…</p>

29

<p>If you base your opinion of ND on such a small sample size, it’s no wonder you’re getting a skewed picture. The reason that many people in academia think that Notre Dame is “so conservative” is that they are totally dumfounded by the presence of well-educated people who hold conservative views. Again, Notre Dame’s faculty and students are far more “diverse” than those at Duke, Georgetown, etc. for the simple reason that they are not all liberals who donate to Democratic candidates and voted for Obama. How anyone can claim with a straight face that such a faculty is “diverse” when 90% of them fit that profile is quite beyond me.</p>

30

<p>We need to make sure that we get the word out–Notre Dame is not only “diverse,” but more “diverse” than most–perhaps only surpassed in this “diversity” by other incredible institutions like BYU, Bob Jones University, and Liberty University. I suspect that with your logic, these are Notre Dame’s true peers–not Duke and Georgetown.</p>

31

<p>How about if we get back to the original poster’s question? The arguing and bitterness that has resulted since that original post is far beyond what I believe the OP was looking for in information regarding double legacy…let’s take a step back and re-evaluate!</p>

32

<p>Notre Dame is indeed more diverse than most of its peer institutions, because it includes students and faculty with diverse political and social views.</p>

33

<p>While many people, both inside and outside of the ND community, hold stereotypes about the qualifications of legacy students, from what I have seen as a student and as a double legacy is that legacies and double legacies are just as qualified as non-legacies. I turned down Dartmouth, my roommate turned down Harvard, and most legacies I know were National Merit Finalists who contributed a lot to their high schools. I also know that several of my parents’ friends from ND have had kids (double legacies) rejected, and these are kids with good grades and good test scores.</p>

<p>I’m hoping my younger brother will get in, but I know it’s not a given, even though he’s top of his class and scored a 35 on his ACT. With so many qualified legacies applying, I sometimes wonder if at some point being a legacy will hurt more than help. If admissions targets a certain percentage of the class they want as legacies, what if there are too many legacies with exceptional credentials?</p>

<p>The bottom line is that you have to be a really qualified candidate no matter what – unless you’re a football player. If anyone thinks they can get admitted just because they are a legacy, they will be disappointed.</p>

34

<p>ryeow, are you serious that most legacies that you know at ND are NMF? I find it strange that you would even know that. I can’t see my college son sitting around with his friends talking about the fact that he was or wasn’t a NMF! Maybe that is why he didn’t get into ND (and he was a 3rd generation legacy)!! Tell me the kids are a bit more normal than that please…</p>

35

<p>Sorry for writing a novel on this one, but 3 things:</p>

<ol>
<li>“How about diversity re: beliefs on the role of women in society (and the church) and their rights (e.g. abortion), the use of contraception, homosexuality and sexual preference, etc.? How does the student population (and administration and faculty) at ND fall on those important topics? What kind of discussions are occurring at ND on these socially relevant topics? I agree completely with the notion that there are other types of diversity than simply ethnicity and geographic–in fact, that is my point. In the last decade, ND has made tremendous strides to overcome its atrocious identity as an ethnically homogeneous place. The diversity of ideas is where the institution now needs to focus if it truly wishes to become a diverse place. My exposure to ND (which includes family members who attend or attended the school, friends in graduate/professional programs there, and a half dozen faculty members) is that it is FAR behind the curve in promoting and advancing the diversity of ideas that should be at the heart of an undergraduate experience.”</li>
</ol>

<p>Hoya, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. As a recent graduate of ND, I can attest that discussion about religious, political, and moral issues goes on all the time. I have had discussions about the role of women in the church, the use of contraception, homosexuality, etc in class, in the dining hall, in my dorm, and on numerous occasions, at parties/bars (yes, I realize this makes me a dork). In fact, I have had these discussions far more often with my ND friends than with my other friends. And their opinions range from one end of the spectrum to the other on these, and many other, issues.</p>

<p>I think the reason for this is that, while Notre Dame as an institution and its student body is very conservative when compared to most colleges and universities, this does not mean that it is uber-conservative and ideologically homogenous. While the administration has a bit of a conservative bent, Fr. Jenkins has aggressively encouraged an open forum for discussion of ideas in spite of having taken a considerable amount of flak from some Catholics for doing so (i.e. when Obama came to speak at graduation in 2009). And I think the student body itself is split about 50-50 between conservatives and liberals, something that is UNHEARD OF throughout most of academia. This offers a unique opportunity to have a more balanced debate. Real discussion doesn’t happen when 95% of those involved are on the same side and the other 5% fear being condemned or ostracized for their ideas. I have seen and experienced this happening even among groups of intelligent individuals.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>irishmary- while ND students don’t sit around constantly discussing their National Merit status, I don’t think it’s that weird that things like that would come up in conversation, perhaps after the Observer publishes its annual “look how much smarter than you the incoming class is!” article or while discussing what colleges one had to choose between before deciding on ND, or if a younger sibling can get in with their SAT scores, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>Finally, to the OP (sorry your thread has gotten hijacked)- I think that legacy status helps a fair amount at ND, but the large percentage of ND legacies comes largely from the fact that children of ND alums are raised being told what an amazing place Notre Dame is (as I’m sure you know…), so more of them apply. This makes the legacy applicant pool more comparable to the rest of the applicant pool in terms of competition. ND won’t lower its standards for you, but you’ll have a better chance of getting in if you fall within ND’s range. As always, you never really know until you apply. Good luck!</p></li>
</ol>

36

<p>“And I think the student body itself is split about 50-50 between conservatives and liberals, something that is UNHEARD OF throughout most of academia. This offers a unique opportunity to have a more balanced debate. Real discussion doesn’t happen when 95% of those involved are on the same side and the other 5% fear being condemned or ostracized for their ideas. I have seen and experienced this happening even among groups of intelligent individuals.”</p>

<p>This is so very true, and not always apparent to those who haven’t spent much time on other campuses. The vast majority of faculty at ND’s academic peers is incredibly and overtly liberal, and overwhelmingly hostile to religion in general (except Islam, of course) and orthodox Catholicism in particular. You’ll find a few more conservatives among the student bodies at those schools, but not many. Notre Dame is unique in this respect. That’s why liberal students come here and say “But it’s SOOOO conservative,” and conservative students respond, “No, it’s way too liberal.”</p>

37

<p>Legacies are at an advantage getting in. When I got in there was a concrete 1 or 2 point ACT bump they got. I think it’s tougher now but you’re still at a slight advantage.</p>