<p>One more thing:</p>
<p>CS Degree = Can do CS and IT jobs
IT Degree = Can do IT jobs but NOT CS jobs.</p>
<p>Case in point, a CS major can be part of a team to design a new language OR compiler OR operating system OR new computer algorithms.</p>
<p>An IT major cannot do that.</p>
<p>The only “issue” with finding CS jobs is living in an area where they are prominent or moving to an area where they are. </p>
<p>Don’t major in CS if you plan on living in the middle of nowhere, Kansas.</p>
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<p>haha…isn’t the guy some kind of jobless accountant? He seems to have it all figured out. Well, everything except his own career.</p>
<p>No, I have a job. Great job too, as I get to make all my own hours. I do get laid off dring the summer though…</p>
<p>From CrashOverridelol’s link:</p>
<p>“As with other information technology jobs, offshore outsourcing may temper employment growth of computer software engineers. Firms may look to cut costs by shifting operations to foreign countries with lower prevailing wages and highly educated workers. Jobs in software engineering are less prone to being offshored than are jobs in computer programming, however, because software engineering requires innovation and intense research and development.”</p>
<p>“Information technology workers and computer software engineers have been especially heavily hit by offshore jobs outsourcing. During the past five years (Jan 01 - Jan 06), the information sector of the US economy lost 645,000 jobs or 17.4% of its work force. Computer systems design and related lost 116,000 jobs or 8.7% of its work force. Clearly, jobs outsourcing is not creating jobs in computer engineering and information technology. Indeed, jobs outsourcing is not even creating jobs in related fields.”</p>
<p>[Paul</a> Craig Roberts: America’s Bleak Jobs Future](<a href=“http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03062006.html]Paul”>http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03062006.html)</p>
<p>And here is a post i found on Indeed’s software engineering forum:</p>
<p>"I lived in India for 8 years working with Indian Software Companies, I had client companies in Manila, China, Singapore, UK, Eastern Europe, and Australia. </p>
<p>I have now set up a software outsourcing company in Costa Rica because of the business environment and time/distance proximity to the US. As Costa Rica has a population not much larger than San Diego County, it has a relatively small number of IT professionals, although very well educated, and exceptional engineers. </p>
<p>I am working with the government in a program where I use Filipino Software Engineers in Costa Rica while I develop Costa Rican Engineers. I use the Filipino engineers by choice. Their education is outstanding, they are very task oriented and job focused and they are fluent in English, without a heavy accent as their Primary, Secondary and Advanced education is delivered in English."</p>
<p>And finally:</p>
<p>“With the software industry beginning to mature, however, and with routine software engineering work being increasingly outsourced overseas, job growth will not be as rapid as during the previous decade.”</p>
<p>[Drexel</a> ECE : Software Engineering](<a href=“http://www.ece.drexel.edu/SoftwareEngineering.html]Drexel”>Electrical and Computer Engineering Programs | Drexel Engineering)</p>
<p>Seriously, you guys should be ashamed of yourselves for luring unsuspecting students into jobs that are prone to outsourcing and competititon from foreigners.</p>
<p>Most Software Engineering is done for in-house proprietary applications, outsourcing causes headaches, slow communication, and poor work done by those who aren’t native English speakers(as programming languages are more tailored to those who are native English speakers).</p>
<p>You’re also ignoring that a MASSIVE amount of SE jobs CANNOT be outsourced because they are for military and national security.</p>
<p>"And finally:</p>
<p>“With the software industry beginning to mature, however, and with routine software engineering work being increasingly outsourced overseas, job growth will not be as rapid as during the previous decade.”</p>
<p>Drexel ECE : Software Engineering</p>
<p>Seriously, you guys should be ashamed of yourselves for luring unsuspecting students into jobs that are prone to outsourcing and competititon from foreigners. "</p>
<p>No *<strong><em>ing *</em></strong>, does anyone really expect us to top the dot com boom in our economy? NO, the fact remains that SE is the fastest growing field today in the United States.</p>
<p>Your quote for IT off shoring is from 2001-2006, that’s after the ****ing crash of course the job outlook was poor. Use some common sense.</p>
<p>The fastest growing occupations in the USA revolve around computer engineering and IT. But of course Homer has it better than the statistics because the “massive” outsourcing for some reason doesn’t seem to be calculated in those numbers. Darn. Good thing we got wise ol’ Homer…</p>
<p>"The fact is that we are greatly underutilizing our own workers trained in the computers area. For example, 20 years after graduation from college, only 19% of computer science majors are still employed as programmers. This compares, for instance, to a figure of 57% of civil engineering majors who are still working as civil engineers 20 years after leaving school. Many were forced out of the field by the rampant age discrimination in this industry.</p>
<p>For example, among H-1Bs, those with computer science degrees outnumber those with electrical engineering degrees by a ratio of 15-to-1."</p>
<p>[An</a> Indian reader asks, Arent Immigrants Just Taking The Jobs Americans Are Too Stupid To Do?;Norm Matloff Replies](<a href=“http://www.vdare.com/letters/tl_060601.htm]An”>http://www.vdare.com/letters/tl_060601.htm)</p>
<p>Age discrimination may be a factor but we bring immigrants to fill unfilled positions, this is the opposite of outsourcing. </p>
<p>There is such a massive demand for work in the computer industry that EVERYONE gets hired, then those with related degrees get payed to learn how to program and get hired, and then we bring people in on visas(which are limited), and we still have jobs to go around.</p>
<p>oh and did you read</p>
<p>"I would also point out that Boeing is one of the worst examples the author could cite, as their expressed goal is to save on salary costs. A Boeing representative at an industry-sponsored “high-tech shortage” conference told me that Boeing does not even bother to recruit new graduates of California universities, as they are too expensive.</p>
<p>If the author does not believe the H-1Bs are paid less on average than comparable Americans, he should read the studies performed at UCLA and Cornell University which show the wage exploitation—with both studies being authored by prominent immigrant advocates. And one doesn’t even need studies, as the exploitation is clear from basic economic principles: Due to the de facto indentured servitude of most H-1Bs, they cannot get higher pay by changing employers or by threatening to do so. Thus by definition, on average they cannot get as high a salary as they would if they were able to move freely about in the labor market."</p>
<p>And while we throw around person experience as facts, 80% of the internships and jobs offered through my school require US citizenship.</p>
<p>edit: Awesome, another dated article from June 06, 2001, seriously dude you’re a dumbass just give up.</p>
<p>A fair amount of misinformation in this thread.</p>
<p>There’s been a lot of discussion about the IT and CS majors (ECE, CE should be ignored). It misses the CIS major which is essentially a business major with a few CS courses or CIS courses thrown in. It is a useful major in that there are jobs where you need to understand business systems and work with people well. I worked in MIS for about five years before switching over to software engineering. I did stints in consulting, working in manufacturing systems and working for a large company doing applications development. I frequently had to wear ties and sometimes had to wear suits. Sometimes I did presentations or sales pitches to upper management. I also did design and development. Someone with just a CS degree probably wouldn’t have all of the business courses down so that they could talk to other department heads about their needs. Of course the department heads could explain accounting, finance, etc. but that would be an extra cost of their time.</p>
<p>We’ve hired a fair number of software engineers in the last five years. Many have left because there are a lot of opportunities out there in my area for software engineers in terms of more interesting work. They certainly don’t leave us for the pay and benefits as we’re up there on pay and bennies.</p>
<p>Regarding age discrimination: I’m sure that it happens. But I’m in my early fifties, my manager is in his early sixties, and his manager is in our general area. The people that I work with are mostly older, in their 50s. We do have many newer hires in their twenties and thirties. Many of us have worked in the same group since the mid-1980s.</p>
<p>“There is such a massive demand for work in the computer industry that EVERYONE gets hired,”</p>
<p>Really?</p>
<p>“A Business Week article has pointed out that starting salaries for new
bachelor’s degree graduates in computer science and electrical engineering,
adjusted for inflation, have been flat or falling in recent years. This
belies the industry’s claim of a labor shortage. Additional analysis at the
master’s degree level shows the same trend, flat wages – contradicting the
industry’s claim that workers at the postgraduate level are in especially
short supply.”</p>
<p><a href=“http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/SFChron.txt[/url]”>http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/SFChron.txt</a> </p>
<p>Ok, I will admit, my economics education does not go beyond Econ 101 and Econ 102, but even I know that when a professon is in great demand, salaries for those in that profession do not remain flat or decline.</p>
<p>“While business made relatively flat advances, computer science students saw one of the largest decreases in terms of salaries compared to previous years dropping by 1.4% to $56,128. While some of the decline can be attributed to the struggling domestic economy, the impact of international outsourcing has been cited as a contributing factor.”</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cpst.org/hrdata/documents/pwm13s/C462S091.pdf[/url]”>http://www.cpst.org/hrdata/documents/pwm13s/C462S091.pdf</a></p>
<p>Homer28, I thought you were leaving this community (you said it last time).
Stop with those stupid comments about outsourcing, please. If you think outsourcing is bad, I am sorry, but this is 21th century, and every major business in this world knows that outsourcing is a business strategy.
You are just wasting your time here arguing non sense. I don’t give a damn about the outsourcing, because there are so many options that I can take if I don’t have a job in my field. Get that?
I can become a professor, a math teach, a computer science teacher, a business man, a security guard, janitor, or become a local computer technician and fix computers.</p>
<p>I don’t want to hijack this thread because of your repetitive disapproval of the future of engineering.</p>
<p>Most people choose CS because they think it is the ideal degree to become a software engineer. This is an open debate, and I think the fair answer is the “availability”. I was speaking to my friend today about this “software engineering” degree at Calc Poly. He said he would love to have that study in our school, instead of the boring CS because those 3000+ and 4000+ classes are basically electives. </p>
<p>Whether it’s CS, CpE, or EE, or any major, you can write a software if you know the stuff. I knew people who were business major and they were active members (coder) in a famous open source project. Some of the core team members aren liberal art majors.</p>
<p>But note that theories will always come back to bite you, so I suppose it’s better to know them first. </p>
<p>Well, if you are talking about world-class application, I don’t have an answer. It might be better to have strong CS background, but again, experience comes from “experience”!!! I guess those have work experiences can explain more.</p>
<p>It really depends on the school, and again, the resources availability. Information science is just as demanding as software engineer. A new server is running every few minutes. </p>
<p>IT is technician IMO. If you really want to be safe, take CS.
So what if you graduate with a CS degree? Does it mean you can design a compiler, a framework right away? Yes and no. Some people really spend their own times learning additional things. </p>
<p>If you want to do more business-orientated, you can do financial engineering later.
IT graduates are more technical than CS graduates at the beginning. </p>
<p>Whether it’s IT, or CS, you have to do a lot outside the classroom to bolster your knowledge.</p>
<p>Yes, it is true that I.T. probably has more non-CS, non-IS/IT, non-CompE majors than one would believe. I guess “technically” I am one of them too (Computational Math) but the courses that I state are the ones that will allow you to both CS, IT and Software Engineering.</p>
<p>I figure one might as well be able to keep the checks coming regardless of the computer emphasis.</p>
<p>“I can become a professor, a math teach, a computer science teacher, a business man, a security guard, janitor, or become a local computer technician and fix computers.”</p>
<p>So CS majors are going to end up working as janitors? Wow, the field must be worse than I thought it was. </p>
<p>Seriously though, why should anyone do a CS major when there is rampant age discrimination in the field? I know age discrimination is not on the mind of most people here since your all young, but, unless you die, you will become old. And then companies will not want to hire you because they can get a 25 year old to do the same job for less. Plus, tech companies prefer young people since they are dominated by young workers. And yes, I have posted hard data to back up the age discrimination in the field.</p>
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<p>I think that the poster was expressing options.</p>
<p>When you have kids, you have to do all kinds of unpleasant tasks anyways.</p>
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<p>There’s age discrimination in every field.</p>
<p>You have to make the most of the value in age though and that’s through experience. Your experience should make you a valued technical contributor or you should have already climbed up the management ladder.</p>
<p>I work with a lot of older CS folks. Most of the older ones are quite well off financially due to stock options and employee stock programs. They’ve been around long enough to experience a few stock market booms and have taken advantage of them.</p>
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<p>Do you know why auto insurance rates for males is a lot higher until they reach 25?</p>
<p>The kids can code fast but they can also make mistakes fast. They often don’t have the maturity or breadth of knowledge and experience that older workers have. They often don’t understand the politics of organizations. The smart ones ask the older folks.</p>
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<p>Some tech companies prefer young people but a good engineering environment has a mix of younger and older workers.</p>
<p>Age discrimination is there but you’re ultimately responsible for how you manage your career as you get older. You can always make a ton of money and start your own business when you are older. Or go into management. If you can do CS, most other stuff is easy.</p>