<p>Probably because he digs these things up and quotes them as truth, even if only one source backs him while a hundred others refute him.</p>
<p>People forget that on the internet you can find almost anything you want. If someone wants bias information they can find it. If you want to say the Earth is the center of the universe, you can pull up a few pages. What people tend to forget is that there is a distinction between the internet and reality at some points.</p>
<p>In the instance of Homer, he can pull out all the information he Googles up and state them as fact all he wants, but until he becomes an engineer himself or takes time out to listen to experienced engineers, he is being naive and being ignorant. To think a person looking in on a field knows better (Using Google and 1-2 Engineering friends in unemployment) than engineers in the field should be classified under the label “Nonsense”.</p>
<p>Why are you guys so mean to Homer? He’s a very insightful guy and I personally would like to thank him for his information.</p>
<p>You go ahead and thank him, just don’t share his disinformation with other people who are honestly looking for advice, because it is incredibly biased and, for the most part, just him being an alarmist.</p>
<p>Well, all of my links are from credible sources and I stand behind them. What I find interesting is that you guys say they are all wrong, but you hae yet to post your own data to rebut them. Saying “Well, at my company all of the software engieners are old” or “I have never seen H1B visa engineers” is fine, but without actual proof, it cannot rebut scientific studies.</p>
<p>Probably because we are actual engineers with other things to do. I work during the day, and don’t want to spend my night searching for articles to prove some guy wrong because to most people, having a ton of experience engineers tell a non-engineer they are wrong about an engineering topic is enough. You are citing studies and articles that are from biased sources and/or are the only person claiming your points are true while many other people are claiming the opposite.</p>
<p>I don’t even understand why you are hellbent on trying to prove how terrible engineering is. What is your motivation? Are you just here to see how frustrated you can make everyone or do you honestly believe what you are saying? That leads to another question: if you honestly believe this, what has motivated you to even look this stuff up? You aren’t an engineer, so why do you care so much? Honestly, I would like to know.</p>
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<p>You made a claim. The burden of proof falls upon you, not us.</p>
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<p>Most of your studies aren’t scientific. They suffer from the self-selection problem.</p>
<p>I’ve posted studies from Harvard, Duke, and UC Davis. Not exactly biased sources.</p>
<p>The number of H-1B visas for engineers has exceeded engineering job creation every year since 2001. (Center for Immigration Studies “H-1B Visa Numbers: No Relationship to Economic Need” June 2008)
American colleges and universities produce more than enough science, math, and engineering graduates to fill available jobs:
“The United States’ education system produces a supply of qualified [science and engineering] graduates in much greater numbers than jobs available.” - Harold Salzman, Ph.D. , The Urban Institute
“First, no one who has come to the question with an open mind has been able to find any objective data suggesting general ‘shortages’ of scientists and engineers.” - Michael S. Teitelbaum, Vice President, Alfred P. Sloan Foundation </p>
<p>Before the economic downturn, the Department of Labor predicted an average of 82,000 new STEM jobs every year.
Between 2006 and 2007, the U.S. Department of Education and the Computing Research Association show that colleges and universities graduated more than 203,000 students in STEM disciplines.
Yet in FY 2006 more than 1 30,000 H-1 B applications for computer-related occupations were reviewed and certified. In FY 2007 and FY 2008 this trend continued with over 1 39,000 and 1 37,000 H-1 B visas, respectively, approved in computer-related occupations.
Real Wages in science, engineering, computer, and mathematics (STEM) fields have remained flat since 2000. (Gene Nelson) </p>
<p>Studies finding no shortage of engineers in the U.S. include one by Duke University’s Vivek Wadhwa and another by Hal Salzman of the Urban Institute and Lindsay Lowell of Georgetown University. </p>
<p>[There</a> Is No Tech Worker Shortage | NumbersUSA - For Lower Immigration Levels](<a href=“http://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/issues/high-tech-workers/there-no-tech-worker-shortage.html]There”>http://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/issues/high-tech-workers/there-no-tech-worker-shortage.html)</p>
<p>From the Urban Institue Study:</p>
<p>In our studies of engineering, we find that outsourcing and offshoring
lead to new engineering management layers and engineers comment that they now manage engineering project rather than engage in “real” engineering.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411562_Salzman_Science.pdf[/url]”>http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411562_Salzman_Science.pdf</a></p>
<p>And this from the Duke study:</p>
<p>Future of engineering offshore. The vast majority of respondents said the trend will continue, and their companies plan to send an even wider variety of jobs offshore. Only 5% said their overseas operations would stabilize or contract.</p>
<p>To complement our survey, we also met with senior executives of a number of U.S. multinationals, including IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, and GE in India and China. All of them talked of major successes, expressed satisfaction with the performance of their groups, and foresaw significant expansion. They said their companies were responding to the big opportunities in these rapidly growing markets. They expected that R&D would be moved closer to these growth markets and that their units would increasingly be catering to worldwide needs.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.soc.duke.edu/GlobalEngineering/pdfs/WhereEngineersAre.pdf[/url]”>http://www.soc.duke.edu/GlobalEngineering/pdfs/WhereEngineersAre.pdf</a></p>
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<p>You don’t understand what bias is.</p>
<p>You don’t understand where bias is.</p>
<p>Have you ever taken a research study and tracked down all of the citations to their base sources?</p>
<p>I have.</p>
<p>Bias is everywhere. Even at Harvard. So are errors.</p>
<p>[The number of H-1B visas for engineers has exceeded engineering job creation every year since 2001. (Center for Immigration Studies “H-1B Visa Numbers: No Relationship to Economic Need” June 2008)
American colleges and universities produce more than enough science, math, and engineering graduates to fill available jobs:
“The United States’ education system produces a supply of qualified [science and engineering] graduates in much greater numbers than jobs available.” - Harold Salzman, Ph.D. , The Urban Institute
“First, no one who has come to the question with an open mind has been able to find any objective data suggesting general ‘shortages’ of scientists and engineers.” - Michael S. Teitelbaum, Vice President, Alfred P. Sloan Foundation ]</p>
<p>Where are your numbers broken down by Computer Science majors?</p>
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<p>It makes sense to locate engineering resources closer to where customers are.</p>
<p>But in base engineering development, engineering in the US is still primary.</p>
<p>I know quite a bit about outsourcing and there are benefits and drawbacks.</p>
<p>You don’t.</p>
<p>Benefits to outsourcing? Yeah, for the company and the shareholders, not for engineers. How dare you defend outsourcing. Have you been reading one too many Chamber of Commerce talking points?</p>
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<p>The source does not indicate whether the study was scientific, the methodology does. Furthermore, every source is biased to some degree. Almost nothing is purely objective.</p>
<p>Additionally, the comment about the US producing enough qualified engineers is very subjective. What was this person’s definition of qualified? Clearly, for one reason or another, companies are not finding as many qualified engineers as Dr. Salzman has implied. That comes down to a difference of opinion.</p>
<p>This NumbersUSA group is a lobbying group that is anti-immigration. That is hardly unbiased.</p>
<p>You still haven’t answered my question of why you care so much and why you spend so much time looking up these articles.</p>
<p>Most of the stidies identify qualified engineers based on those who hold a minimum of a BS degree in engineering.</p>
<p>That isn’t what companies consider qualified. To a company, qualified depends on not only holding the degree, but also the relevant knowledge. GPA, internships, research, projects, leadership, etc all factor into being qualified for a position, even at the entry level.</p>
<p>Homer, I am a sophomore, and I think I have a better comprehension about business, history and philosophy than you do.</p>
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<p>Since I am a sophomore, I don’t have any experience in the industry, and thus my comment can be false. I agree that there isn’t a rapid and enormous demand for engineers. As I mentioned last time, there are at least 6xxx registered colleges and universities in this country. Count 1/4 produce Computer science graduates: this is overwhelming already. </p>
<p>I think most people would agree that there are simply too many college graduates these days. This is true for all majors, not just engineering. You seriously have to open your mind. I don’t know what happen to you: you sound like you went through a horrible experience with engineering, and now you just hate it. </p>
<p>This is an open forum, and we can’t really do **** to you. But if you think engineering is bad, why don’t you just make your own little forum, and then tell people why engineering is a worthless field.</p>
<p>If you actually open your mind, then you should also notice that Harold Salzman’s statement is also true in many other countries. </p>
<p>I was reading the newspaper this morning and an article title caught my attention: “one PhD instructor for 47 PhD candidates in China.” Well people blame the Chinese’s cheap labor for outsourcing. Guess what? The Chinese is also frightening about so many college graduates. I suppose you are not Chinese and you don’t really know what is going on in China. I am a Hong Kong immigrant, so I can tell you the economy in two regions: HK and China. There are too many college graduates nowadays. Even when the economy is good, again, you can’t employ everyone. This is a reason why people usually change their choice of career path after graduation.</p>
<p>Outsourcing is bad. No doubt. </p>
<p>I have to agree with boneh3ad. Why are you so into this? So what if we mislead some members about the demand of engineers? They should be smart enough to know that public forum is not a primary source, and creditability of many accounts are rather low. It is the user’s job to ask, and to find out more from different sources.</p>
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<p>If you have a project in another country where you need language and culture expertise, you hire locals if they are available with the right skills. You might bring in foreign expertise but this might annoy the company that you are working with if you have severe translation problems.</p>
<p>I’m familiar with outsourcing.</p>
<p>You are clueless.</p>
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<p>How about those with a BA?</p>
<p>Sounds like you have a self-selection problem again.</p>
<p>What about that breakdown for CS majors? You know, as in the title of the thread that you created?</p>