<p>Just a note: I do not have any plans to go to law school. That has never been my career plan. However, becoming a lawyer was one of many options that I researched a few years back, and before I even seriously considered it, I easily decided against it due to the state of the market for law graduates. But out of curiousity I was looking at this part of the forums and came across this thread.</p>
<p>Sakky hit the nail on the head when it comes to college education overall. People from every single field out there, whether its Accounting, Finance, Engineering, Computer Science / IT, Sales / Marketing, Human Resources, Law, Medicine, Science, etc… are advising everyone to stay away from their field, that the field was in heavy decline even before the economic recession, and that everyone should choose one of the other fields. The problem is, people from those other fields are saying to avoid those as well. I see law graduates and/or lawyers advising people to go into Computer Science. But then on another forum I see Computer Science graduates and/or experienced IT workers advising people to go to law school.</p>
<p>It seems that every type of career in America:
a) Has a larger supply of workers than jobs.
b) Has an average salary (when inflation is taken into account) that is rapidly dropping.
c) Requires an increasing amount of hours, from 70 to 80 or more per week, for the same <em>decreasing</em> pay.</p>
<p>Yet everyone then blames all the unemployed/underemployed and says it is their fault, rather than the fault of illegal immigration, mass h1-b imports, outsourcing, and free trade with countries that have no safety, health, environmental, or working condition regulations.</p>
<p>If everyone here opposes law school, as sakky points out, exactly what career(s) are you instead recommending? I majored in something that supposedly was in-demand according to all the government studies and employer surveys, and I still cannot get a job. What about the people that majored in something even worse - what are they supposed to do now?</p>
<p>You raise a good question. I don’t know the answer. In the past, I would have recommended that someone who is a non-STEM student get an MBA rather than a law degree, but MBA’s are a dime a dozen now too. Down here in Florida, they advertise MBA programs on billboards along I-95.</p>
<p>I am recommending to my son, who is not STEM oriented, that he study at least some economics (he is majoring in international relations, which I fear may simply be akin to a glorified political science degree). </p>
<p>For kids just entering college, I would recommend that they take 1/2 their courses in the subject they really want to study, and 1/2 in something practical/job oriented. For example, French Literature and Pharmacy. Then they can try and get a job in the field they love, but also market themselves in the more practical field.</p>
<p>But you make a good point. Even doctors say don’t go to med school.</p>
<p>Don’t really understand sakky’s point, which seems to be that if you’re unemployed with your current degree, it’s a good idea to get a law degree, pick up a ton of debt, and be…unemployed. I’ve been a lawyer for almost 30 years, and this is beyond question the worst I’ve seen it. We routinely get resumes from bar admitted attorneys offering to work for free. It makes no sense to enter a field where there are very good chances you won’t find a job.
And while doctors may say don’t go to medical school, they have to admit: every-every single one-of the US medical school grads who received his/her diploma and passed the boards got a job: that’s 100% employment. And employment prospects for virtually every healthcare field are great; it’s a bear to get accepted, and tough work when you’re there, but you’ll get a job in PT or pharm or nursing.<br>
But b/c you’re currently in debt and unemployed, it’s a big risk to go to law school, especially the lower rated schools. And I’d suggest that if you’re going to spend three years on a big risk, it’s better to retrain in a healthcare field than go to law school.
Everybody complains about their jobs; people in healthcare actually can get jobs to complain about.</p>
<p>^ Most doctors / health-care professionals recommend against going the med-school route because of the immensely demanding nature of their jobs. I’ve noticed that very many of them end up disliking their jobs because of it. </p>
<p>But I feel they forget to appreciate the benefits that come with the MD.</p>
<p>“I therefore continue to ask the question: if these students should not consider law school, then pray tell, exactly what should they do instead?”</p>
<p>This is really sad- go to law school because that’s the only option for a non-STEM major? Lawyer or nothing? Sakky, I suggest taking a look around you and seeing that the world is full of many other types of professionals besides doctors and lawyers. I would advise them (college students) to use their time wisely doing all sorts of volunteer positions, internships, and jobs to see what the world has to offer. If you want a guarantee in life, sorry, I haven’t run into anyone who offers such a thing. Opportunities are there for the brave, the imaginative, and the persistent. I would advise them (college students) to take advantage of the opportunities at their schools, in their communities, and abroad. For example, students under 30 years old can get working holiday visas to Australia and New Zealand. Why not? Sounds a lot more fun than law school!</p>
<p>Um, actually, I think my point is quite clear: attending law school gives you the chance of vastly improving your station. Let’s face it, for many college graduates, that’s better than a grinding life of low-level, low-paying jobs that confronts most of them. At least law school gives you some hope. </p>
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<p>Sure, right now. But prospective law school applicants won’t be entering the profession right now, but rather in (a minimum of) 3-4 years after they apply, are admitted, and then graduate. Will the market for attorneys in 3-4 years be as depressed as it is now? I rather doubt it. </p>
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<p>Actually, I think you should be directing that statement not to me, but rather to all of the liberal arts graduates (or near-graduates) who are desperately seeking fulfilling and reasonably paying careers. Exactly what would you advise them to do, if not law (or medicine)? </p>
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<p>To be perfectly frank, you’re now providing the type of chronically useless advice that I specifically warned against in my previous post. Sure, I can agree that they probably should have developed better qualifications and experience earlier in their college tenure. But by that very same argument, they should have probably chosen more marketable majors. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, none of that matters, for it is singularly unhelpful to tell those college graduates what they should have done in the past, because that’s not something that they can change. They should have done numerous things, but they didn’t, and now the only relevant question is what they should do moving forward. Telling people what they should have done in the past does not help to remedy current problems. </p>
<p>And so I continue to ask: exactly what promising alternative career path should these people pursue moving forward?</p>
<p>Sakky, maybe you ought to read the title of this thread: it’s advice for WOULD BE attorneys. No one is lecturing anyone on what they’ve done in the past-instead, it’s advice given prospectively-basically, be advised that law school may not be a good idea. And while you’re highly opinionated, you’re also giving terrible advice. Right now, the legal profession is in terrible shape; no one knows what it will be like future, but right now I’d predict it isn’t going to improve much. What do I base that on? All the attorneys working for free at US Attorneys offices across the US. These aren’t clerks or law students-these are bar admitted attorneys working for nothing-no benefits, no salary, no nothing. Until recently this was unheard of.
And telling people to go to law school b/c it gives them “hope” is paternalistic at best, flat wrong at worst. Getting a law degree guarantees most graduates one thing: a ton of new debt, nothing more. So, um, actually, you’re giving people terrible advice-unless, of course, you’re willing to pay the bills. So continue to ask-b/c here’s an answer-this is a law school forum, so the advice is don’t go to law school. There are a lot of other career fields-and there are plenty of of websites to check them out; you’re not going to get advice on teaching or anything else here.</p>
<p>Crankyoldman, perhaps you ought to read the title of this thread: for we are indeed talking about advice for would-be lawyers. The key word there is advice. Simply lecturing people on what not to do is not advice; you have to also give them potential alternatives. You can’t beat something with nothing.</p>
<p>And to be clear, not once have I ever recommended on this thread that people should attend law school. Please point to the quote where I specifically recommended that people should attend law school. Rather, what I said is that I understand why people would make that choice, because nobody has yet articulated any promising alternative. As an analogy, if given the choice between stealing bread and starving, I can understand and would not condemn the former. </p>
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<p>And like I said, that’s why such advice is, frankly, useless. If you’re going to criticize a particular choice, you should then be willing to offer an alternative, for you can’t beat something with nothing. It’s easy to tear down a house; it’s far more difficult to build one. </p>
<p>So that’s why I ask once again: if law is such a poor career choice right now - which I don’t deny - then pray tell, what else should these liberal arts graduates with unmarketable skills pursue? If you can’t or don’t want to offer an alternative, then your statements are surely going to fall upon deaf ears.</p>
<p>Sakky, this isn’t an either/or situation. People need to find their own way, and if that includes law school, ok. But equating attending law school to a starving man stealing bread? Really? If you’re jobless, and pay 100k to still be jobless, that’s more akin to putting a starving man on a diet.
With your 14,000 posts, it’s clear that you’re a veritable polymath, something that’s rare indeed. Can’t possibly match that. That said, then-what is your advice? You spend a good deal of time attacking the “useless” advice given by others-so what, exactly, is your advice? It appears to be that if you’re an unemployed liberal arts major, it’s a good idea to go to law school, as it will give you “hope”, and that while the current legal market may be bad, who knows what the future will hold, so the graduates should be “moving forward”. The hope will be accompanied with 100k worth of debt from law school and shaky job prospects, and by “moving forward” you won’t be standing still-and that particular gem is something every lemming would agree with.
So rather than criticizing, what exactly is your advice, other than the platitudes above? Mine is simple: before attending law school, perform a full cost/benefit analysis of whether it’s worth the cost-in other words, will you get a job after the considerable investment of time(at least 3 years) and money(all those new loans).</p>
<p>The real question is: will they actually be jobless? After all, prospective law students won’t be entering this particular labor market, but rather the market in 3-4 years, and the hope would be that such a market would be improved. </p>
<p>Now, even if you disagree with that strategy of hope, you must concede that that is indeed the strategy that is being weighed by numerous liberal arts graduates who are considering applying to law school right now. It is therefore incumbent upon those advising “would-be lawyers” to clearly demonstrate why that strategy is flawed, based not on today’s labor market, but rather the one that will exist in 3-4 years time. </p>
<p>The problems with today’s law labor market are relevant mostly to those who are graduating right now, meaning those who applied in 2008 and who entered law school in 2009 - those being years when the law labor market was still (relatively) healthy. A plausible case could therefore possibly be made that whenever the law labor market is relatively healthy is precisely the worst time to apply to law school, because you might then graduate smack into a poor economy like now. Conversely, those who applied during a poor economy might graduate into a strong economy and reap the benefits. Law applicants of 2001 during the aftermath of the dotcom crash entered law school in 2002 and graduated in a 2005 in a law market gorged on real-estate and structured finance profits. While those profits all ultimately proved fictitious, those graduates nevertheless enjoyed at least 3 years of the greatest law legal market in history, which should have been sufficient to retire a substantial chunk of their loans.</p>
<p>Now, again, if disagree with that strategy of ‘market timing’, you have to articulate why it is flawed. Otherwise, people are rationally going to continue to choose that strategy. </p>
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<p>Umm, I’m not the one ‘advising’ people not to go to law school. Those who do provide such advice - if they truly want people to follow it - should be willing to provide an actionable alternative. Otherwise, they shouldn’t be surprised if people ignore their advice not to do something. Like I said, you can’t beat something with nothing. If you give people the choice between a bad option vs. nothing at all, you shouldn’t be surprised if people continue to choose the bad option. </p>
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<p>And I’m afraid that that’s not really actionable advice either, for that implies that there is some other choice that provides a superior cost-benefit comparison. And even such a cost-benefit analysis wouldn’t account for the intellectual and social validation that most college graduates want to fulfill. By that same reasoning, most women don’t choose to become strippers even though strippers enjoy a indisputably high cost/benefit calculation. Indeed, I am quite certain that most women would rather be stuck in low-paid law jobs while carrying a mountain of law school debt rather than work as a stripper.</p>
<p>But since you asked - and yet, like I said, shouldn’t be my job because I never advised anybody not to pursue law school anyway - if you want a clear alternative, then I would say that you should learn how to use a marketable software package or information technology skill. For example, it’s really not that hard to develop basic knowledge of a framework such as Ruby on Rails, Perl Catalyst, or Wavemaker sufficient to build a basic web application such as the very first version of Facebook, Linkedin, or Amazon. Now, granted, it’s very difficult to develop the skills necessary to build the advanced, multi-featured versions of Facebook, Linkedin, Amazon that exist today. But I’m not asking for that. All I’m asking is that you develop the basic web development skills necessary for you to obtain an entry-level job, and via that job can you then improve your skills. Most of these software packages are available as open-source freeware And anybody who has been following the business news even casually would realize that the market for web app coding skills is white-hot. </p>
<p>Or, if data analysis is more to your liking, it’s not that hard to develop basic skills for a statistical software package such as Stata, SAS, or R. R is available as open-source freeware and Stata and SAS can usually be obtained through your college (if you’re still a student) for a relatively cheap ‘educational’ license price. Developing such knowledge would make you eligible for the burgeoning data analysis positions available today. Again, I’m not asking that you become an expert. I’m simply asking that you develop sufficient skills to obtain an entry-level job. </p>
<p>And then there is that old stand-by of learning information technology skills. For example, it’s really not that hard to learn basic Linux or Windows server administration skills. It’s not that hard to learn basic Oracle database administration. It’s not that hard to learn how to configure and administer Cisco routers. Linux can be obtained for free, Windows-Server/Oracle disks can be obtained under trial (hence, non-production) licenses for cheap and can then be installed on cheap PC hardware as a testbed, and a rack of used Cisco routers are available on Ebay for just a few hundred dollars. {Note, the newest Cisco routers can easily run into the thousands, but you don’t need the newest gear because you’re just practicing basic Cisco skills. The old 2500/2600-series routers are perfectly sufficient, and they’re dirt cheap. For example, a Cisco 2501 is being sold on Ebay right now for the BuyItNow price of $9.99. String a number of them together and you have a perfectly workable practice lab.} Again, the goal is not necessarily to become an expert, but simply to obtain sufficient skills to obtain an entry-level job.</p>
<p>It should also be noted that none of these skills requires college coursework in engineering or CS. Heck, I know some web-app developers and IT staffers who had already begun working in that profession while literally still high school students, and at the time had never taken a single formal course in CS or engineering and whose formal mathematics coursework are limited to AP Calculus at best. {And indeed not only did many of them never major in engineering or CS while in college, many of them never even chose to go to college at all.} Rather, while as teenagers, they developed tech skills as hobbies in their own spare time. </p>
<p>I remember a guy who once redesigned a system using cheap PC components by customizing the freeware software packages Vyatta and iptables on top of an Ubuntu Linux system to exactly emulate the behavior of the latest Cisco router, and did so while he was still in the 8th grade. I also recall one high school freshman who, starting from knowing nothing, decided to spend the summer between freshman and sophomore year learning Cisco and Juniper networking skills (probably inspired by his father and brother who work in the industry). By the end of that summer, he was a pretty darn competent network tech, having become officially certified as both a Cisco Certified Networking Professional (CCNP) and Juniper Networks Certified Internet Specialist (JNCIS), which are the “intermediate”-level certifications in each track, and was already receiving part-time tech job offers that paid $20+/hour. Heck, he even seriously contemplated dropping out of high school for a high-paying fulltime tech job (although his father convinced him otherwise). </p>
<p>If guys who hadn’t even graduated from high school - or even junior high in some instances - can develop such impressive tech skills, surely college graduates, even in the liberal arts, can develop the basic tech skills necessary to obtain an entry level position. </p>
<p>So, crankyoldman, you asked me for a clear alternative to law school, and I’ve now provided one (even though it was never my job, because I was not the one advising people against law school in the first place). Now I think that it is only fair that others provide clear alternatives as well.</p>
<p>I don’t know anything about legal job market, but I saw this thread on that pop up box and I happen to know a couple of kids who just graduated from Duke law and they are hired by law firms. Would it be the case that legal profession is, by and large, oversupplied but still undersupplied as far as top law school grads?</p>
<p>This hits the nail right on the head. What Sakky said was 100% fact.</p>
<p>I will add that many network engineer positions at major telecoms are looking for people with basic networking knowledge (such as a CCNP or higher) + a software engineering/development background and they pay well.</p>
<p>The advice Sakky provided above was exactly what I did starting 2+ years ago. I’m not the most talented CS major so I never expected to have a GPA that would get me into a T14 law school. I knew that and accepted that.</p>
<p>But I always believed in: “Crawl, walk, and then run.”</p>
<p>First, build a solid foundation - something that you can always fall back onto. Then start adding to that. Without a solid base, everything up top will crumble.</p>
<p>Just wanted to add my two (formerly Canadian) cents and say that going to law school in CANADA is still a pretty awesome idea, especially if your interested in a number of practice areas. I recently closed up a successful practice in Canada and moved to the U.S. (got hitched) and I refuse to waste time and effort on trying to re-license in this utterly awful legal job market. I’m going to go into a related career and re-evaluate things in a few years.</p>