<p>What would they be?
This could pertain to the type of grades and classes people took in college, things that they could have learned or improved in college that became weaknesses in law school, application process, majors, etc...</p>
<p>I consider myself to be on a naively confident path through college that I see ending in law, so any warnings and advice from personal experience are things I, and prospective law students reading this thread might otherwise be unaware of.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Make sure that you really want to be an attorney. </p></li>
<li><p>Make sure that you really want to be an attorney.</p></li>
<li><p>Make sure that you really want to be an attorney.</p></li>
<li><p>Make sure that you really want to be an attorney.</p></li>
<li><p>Make sure that you really want to be an attorney.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>^that;s crap, many law school grads are not attorneys.</p>
<p>
[quote]
^that;s crap, many law school grads are not attorneys.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sure, and many of those non-attorney law school graduates were unhappy as attorneys and ended up spending a lot of money and at least 3 years of their lives to find out. Not all, but enough to give one pause. Also, note that there are a lot of attorneys who are miserable.</p>
<p>In my opinion, graduate and professional school is qualitively different than undergrad. It's reasonable to go to college with the idea that you will explore and learn and grow and dabble and see where it takes you. But you should not enter grad school or professional school without a reasonably clear idea of how you intend to use the degree and reasonable confidence that you will enjoy such use.</p>
<p>Just my humble opinion, of course.</p>
<p>Take the most demanding classes you can take as an undergraduate and do well in them. If you don't do well, you are doing yourself a favor if you realize you won't be able to succeed in law school. </p>
<p>Take classes that force you to read a lot. Take classes that force you to write in a simple and straightforward manner.</p>
<p>Focus not on merely getting into law school but focus on preparing yourself so that you will do well in law school. </p>
<p>Realize that American is full of lawyers and it won't miss you if you chose to to pursue another career.</p>
<p>Don't rely on TV shows to determine what practicing law is like. Visit local court rooms and watch to see what happens.</p>
<p>Law school is a great education even if you never plan to practice. Even a year of law school can be very enlightening and useful.</p>
<p>You'll figure out how to get into law school, but the single best piece of advice I have is to learn to write analytically, clearly and concisely before you go. </p>
<p>Second, prepare to be humble. If you go to a good law school, you will be one of many bright overachievers, and you have to be prepared to accept that you won't necessarily be the best at everything. That's a huge adjustment, so you might as well go into law school with a realistic outlook.</p>
<p>Just 5:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Learn to write well. It is not a natural talent but instead a skill that requires a lot of practice to master. You need to know the rules of grammar without thinking about them. Correct spelling needs to become second nature. Many a lawyer knows that a well written paper goes through no less than four stages: (a) draft one: you struggle to get everything you want down onto paper in an organized and clear manner; once done throw that draft aside and start over; (c) draft two: you now have some idea of what is important and redo the draft so that you cover what is important and eliminate the rest and shorten the draft by half; (c) draft three: now you start over again, take what you have and boil it down to only what is absolutely needed; (d) draft four: revise what you have done to eliminate any and all repitition and useless adjectives and adverbs (for example, the word "very" usually adds nothing to what you are trying to convey and if you have used it strike it out) and check carefully all spelling and grammar. This process applies even to writing two page letters.</p></li>
<li><p>Learn to speak in an organized and succinct manner. It also takes practice. How long can you carry on a conversation without using the words um, uh, hey, you know? Practice eliminating such useless phrases.</p></li>
<li><p>Learn to discover and master details of any subject you are working on. Go deep, find out what you do not know about it. Train yourself in research skills on Google and in libraries.</p></li>
<li><p>Read a lot on a variety of subjects including history. You do not have to major in it and I do not even recommend doing so but having a broad knowledge in history is helpful.</p></li>
<li><p>Engage in and become good at games or activities that require logical thought and time to master. Some possibilities: chess, Sudoku, Jumble word, Scrabble, crosswords. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>It is not by happenstance that the above did not mention your specific classes in college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Take the most demanding classes you can take as an undergraduate and do well in them. If you don't do well, you are doing yourself a favor if you realize you won't be able to succeed in law school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I disagree. Demanding undergraduate classes can be demanding in very different ways from law school classes. A physics class can be demanding because it requires you to solve difficult problems, for example. But doing poorly in such a class doesn't mean you will do poorly in law school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Take classes that force you to read a lot. Take classes that force you to write in a simple and straightforward manner.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, I disagree. The most reading intensive class I took in college -- Western Civilization -- required us to read an entire book every week. It didn't prepare me for law school in the slightest. Just my experience, but I think it is more broadly applicable.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Don't rely on TV shows to determine what practicing law is like. Visit local court rooms and watch to see what happens
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree that local court rooms give more insight into the practice of law than TV shows, but it's worth noting that many attorneys never set foot inside a courtroom. For example, transactional attorneys. Even many litigators spend most of their time at the office.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Before attending law school, work at a firm for aperiod of one year.</p></li>
<li><p>If going to attend, take the course for the bar exam BEFORE you start law school (the fee is flat for as long as you need -- until you pass).</p></li>
<li><p>Do not design your undergraduate work for the law -- you will get enough of that in law school.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>4.. Having said #3, take two courses before you go -- typing and accounting -- so that you can handle the papers easily and understand concepts of accounting.</p>
<ol>
<li> Get into the profession for the love of whatever work you think the degree will enhance your talents -- do not go to law school just to enter a profession that you believe will deliver you to a higher wage.</li>
</ol>
<p>
[quote]
2. If going to attend, take the course for the bar exam BEFORE you start law school (the fee is flat for as long as you need -- until you pass).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I couldn't disagree more. What BarBri and the other courses like it teach you is how to take and pass a very specific test with very specifically worded questions with desired answers. A bar review course does not in any way, shape or form teach you the skills or substantive knowledge you need to be successful in law school or in the practice of law. Of course, this all disregards the fact that BarBri costs over $2,000.</p>
<p>By way of example, last year, after more years of practicing law than I care to count or admit, I had to take a bar exam in a state without reciprocity with any of the other states in which I am admitted. I studied for a grand total of four weeks, for three to four hours a day, while working full time, and passed with flying colors knowing nothing about the specific laws of the state in which I am now admitted to practice, and having had to learn rediculous test responses that have little basis in reality. In fact, even BarBri (which I didn't bother to take this time around) admits that many of the correct answers on the bar exam are different from, if not directly contrary to, the answers sought by law professors in law school exams and the realities of day to day practice. That's what happens, of course, when you try to take a lot of law and cases with a lot of grey areas (which make for excellent classroom discussion and debate) and to make those grey areas black and white for purposes of a multiple choice exam.</p>
<p>Best advice -- don't take a bar review class before beginning law school.</p>
<p>i would also advocate making sure you want to be a lawyer first. too many students end up in law school because (1) they're smart, but don't like science, so it seems the natural course since medical school is out; (2) people tell them they'd make a good lawyer because they are smart and debate well; (3) it seems like an intellectually challenging field (which it can be -- it can also be filled with many mundane details); (4) it seems like a lucrative field. too many students who end up in law school simply don't have a real appreciation for what it means to be a lawyer (and being a law student is very different from being a lawyer). yes, law school can be a good background for other fields -- but it is also an expensive and stressful one -- i personally wouldn't recommend it unless someone really thinks it is the appropriate route for their intended career path.</p>
<p>i have cited this thread a number of times and might as well cite it again here -- from the parents' forum - career advice from practicing attorneys -- read thru the whole thing -- it'll give an idea of why some attorneys love being attorneys, and why others are far less thrilled with the profession. don't read it trying to figure out who is "right" -- it's a matter of what is right for the individual -- read it thinking how you would feel about the types of pluses and minuses described. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=78046%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=78046</a></p>
<p>A typing class? What kind of undergraduate school offers typing classes?</p>
<p>(For that matter, wouldn't it just help to be on CC all the time?)</p>
<p>I went to a my law school class's 20-year reunion a few years back, and was really struck by the variety of things my classmates were doing. Most of them were doing jobs that fall under the rubric of "practicing law," but otherwise had little in common. It was funny to think that we had spent three years a couple of decades ago preparing in the same way for such radically different careers.</p>
<p>My advice to young lawyers would accordingly be, "don't assume that hating your job means you will always hate practicing law. You may just have the wrong job."</p>
<p>My advice to law students would be "it's entirely possible that you'll like practicing law a great deal more than you like going go law school. Every law school has a few students who luxuriate in the sounds of their own voices, and who overestimate the profundity of their insights. Cringing when they open their mouths may be a sign of intelligence on your part. If you notice your classmates cringe whenever you open your mouth, try closing it every now and then."</p>
<p>And my advice to college students would be, "if reading well-written expository prose gives you a visceral thrill, if you glow with pride after writing a well-crafted paragraph, and if you're willing to live with the uncertainty of spending piles of money that you may not have with no guarantee that you'll ever see much of a financial return, law school may be for you."</p>
<p>
[quote]
too many students end up in law school because (1) they're smart, but don't like science, so it seems the natural course since medical school is out; (2) people tell them they'd make a good lawyer because they are smart and debate well; (3) it seems like an intellectually challenging field (which it can be -- it can also be filled with many mundane details); (4) it seems like a lucrative field. too many students who end up in law school simply don't have a real appreciation for what it means to be a lawyer (and being a law student is very different from being a lawyer). yes, law school can be a good background for other fields -- but it is also an expensive and stressful one -- i personally wouldn't recommend it unless someone really thinks it is the appropriate route for their intended career path.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I totally agree. And if you (1) are a reasonably intelligent person; (2) really want to be an attorney; and (3) don't have any felonies on your record, then you probably can succeed in law school and as a lawyer.</p>
<p>Everything else you can pick up as you go along.</p>
<p>JMHO.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I disagree. Demanding undergraduate classes can be demanding in very different ways from law school classes. A physics class can be demanding because it requires you to solve difficult problems, for example. But doing poorly in such a class doesn't mean you will do poorly in law school.
[/quote]
Undergraduates students should take whatever classes most interest them. Distinguishing yourself as an undergraduate is essential to being in a position to distinguish yourself as a law student. Average undergraduate students will fail in law school because they will be surrounded by those students who excelled when taking demanding courses. Taking demanding classes and doing well is a minimum expectation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Again, I disagree. The most reading intensive class I took in college -- Western Civilization -- required us to read an entire book every week. It didn't prepare me for law school in the slightest. Just my experience, but I think it is more broadly applicable.
[/quote]
90 percent of what law student does in law school is read. To suggest that classes devoted to extensive reading won't help you for law school in the slightest is simply silly.</p>
<p>Too many undergraduates focus on taking easy courses to get high GPAs so they can ease into law school. Once they get there, they fall behind the students who have taken difficult coursework as undergaduates and done well. The "easy route" students are also last in line for jobs with law firms.</p>
<p>Undergraduates who are not exceptional undergraduates should realize they will be at the bottom of the barrel in law school and choose other careers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Undergraduates students should take whatever classes most interest them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's different from what you said before. Before, you said to take the most demanding classes. Which is it? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Average undergraduate students will fail in law school because they will be surrounded by those students who excelled when taking demanding courses.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't see why. Some of those average students will decide to work a little harder. And some may content to be towards the bottom of the class. I doubt that very many will fail. Any reasonably intelligent person can get passing grades in law school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
90 percent of what law student does in law school is read.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wasn't like that for me. </p>
<p>
[quote]
To suggest that classes devoted to extensive reading won't help you for law school in the slightest is simply silly.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Do you think that spending a couple hours a day reading comic books will help prepare you for law school? It is reading, after all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The "easy route" students are also last in line for jobs with law firms.</p>
<p>Undergraduates who are not exceptional undergraduates should realize they will be at the bottom of the barrel in law school and choose other careers.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Landing a law firm job isn't necessarily the only point of going to law school. I graduated in the top third of my class at a top 5 law school. I quit my BIG(f?)LAW job 5 years ago and hung out a shingle. Essentially nobody asks me where I went to law school or what grades I got. </p>
<p>JMHO.</p>
<p>Law school is just too large of an undertaking if you really would rather do something else. Also, while much is made of law school teaching you how to think, much of it is minutia that lends itself to nothing but law. Yes, many lawyers end up doing other things successfully, but they might have been better off and gotten there faster if they went to business school or got some other kind of training instead of law school. Also, law school tends to channel people into litigation, and litigation does not lend itself to alternative careers quite as well as transactional work.</p>
<p>drusba- why don't you recommend majoring history? I heard it is one of the most popular majors for law students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's different from what you said before. Before, you said to take the most demanding classes. Which is it?
[/quote]
I agree that my comments may seem confusing, so let me clarify. I am assuming the prospective student is at a major research university. To best succeed in law school a student should chose a major for which he has passion and then take the most demanding courses within that major and other demanding courses that interest him. You mentioned physics. Some schools have "football physics" meaning that it is an easy course that dumb football players take. A prospective law student should avoid those classes and take more rigorous physics classes. In major's where a student can write a thesis, the student should take that course rather than shying away from the easy route.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wasn't like that for me.
[/quote]
Possibly you could give your percentage of time devoted to reading and whether you observed your classmates devoting a similar percentage of time.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you think that spending a couple hours a day reading comic books will help prepare you for law school?
[/quote]
It is difficult to take your arguments seriously when you such silly comments.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Landing a law firm job isn't necessarily the only point of going to law school. I graduated in the top third of my class at a top 5 law school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Employment is the only point of going to law schools for the vast majority of students. I don't know of many people who put themselves through the law school experience for a reason other than employment.</p>
<p>Your comment about your class rank makes my point. Students who are higher ranked in the class will have much more opportunities than students at the bottom. Most law graduates would prefer to work for a law firm than go solo. Those who can't get jobs with law firms are usually those who immediately have to open law practices on their own. It is pretty scary for a recent law grad to have to open a business with no existing clients and no experience. </p>
<p>Most lawyers graduate from regional law schools, not top twenty. Class rank separates those who get good jobs with those who don't . Developing ones skills as an undergraduate and getting use to working extremely hard as an undergraduate are extremely important to grooming a solid law student who will do well in class rank.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is difficult to take your arguments seriously when you such silly comments
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My comment is only silly because it shows the silliness of your argument. You are claiming that law school entails a lot of reading, and therefore any class that involves a lot of reading helps prepare you for law school. One could just as easily say that law school involves a lot of breathing and therefore any activity that involves breathing is good preparation for law school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Possibly you could give your percentage of time devoted to reading and whether you observed your classmates devoting a similar percentage of time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Perhaps 10% of my time was spent reading. No idea about my classmates. I don't know about you, but I pretty much mastered reading by age 15. In college, most of my classes were in statistics, mathematics, computer science, and operations research. My reading was perfectly fine in law school and I didn't feel the slightest bit of disadvantage.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Employment is the only point of going to law schools for the vast majority of students. I don't know of many people who put themselves through the law school experience for a reason other than employment.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Anyone who goes to law school just so they can get a job is making a big mistake. As I said at the start of the thread, make sure you really want to be an attorney.</p>