Advice Needed on List So Far

Parents Forum
1

<p>We'd be really grateful if people would comment on whether our daughter's list is reasonable and what schools we should consider adding. She's looking for a small to medium liberal arts college, ideally east coast. </p>

<p>She's a suburban Caucasian kid who attended a strong private day school until we moved overseas. Thus she'll graduate from a school in a developing country and will be considered an international applicant. Her test scores are: SAT I: CR (700), Math (750), Writing (720); SAT II: U.S. History (690), Biology-M (640), Literature (750), AP US History (4), AP Biology (4), AP Eng. Lit. (5). Her GPA is 3.7 (unweighted) which just barely ranked her in the top 25% at the private day school, but it is depressed by weaker 9th grade grades - in 10th and 11th her GPA was 3.9 so there is a good upward trend. Course schedule is most challenging. Her main academic interests are science and writing. She worked for two years in a lab at a science research facility, does community service with terminally ill children, was editor of school newspaper. Is brighter than her performance often shows due to learning disabilities and ADHD since 1st grade. Has to work hard for good grades. </p>

<p>Here's what she's seen and brief impressions. </p>

<p>Brown: Fell totally in love with but is managing interest as it is a near-impossible reach, right? Would it be a waste to apply there ED? Are her stats too low to be seriously considered? It may be a bit too big for her anyway.</p>

<p>Bowdoin: Didn't like remote location. </p>

<p>Bates: Ditto.</p>

<p>Barnard: Thought girls she met there weren't as sharp as she likes to be surrounded by. She loves being with bright people - spent many summers at CTY camps where she was in heaven. Also not wild about NYC campus.</p>

<p>Yale: Walked out of info session as thought was too snooty. Is a legacy here but no pressure from us as she doesn't like large schools. We agree she'd be better off at a smaller liberal arts college. </p>

<p>Wellesley: Liked a lot but worries about all female aspect as is eager to have boyfriends. Is this a reach or a match? The college counselor at her old private school thought it might be a match due largely to the very few girls who have applied from that school and the fact that all have been accepted and they had lower stats. </p>

<p>Carleton: Felt kids work too hard studying 24/7. Got same impression at Swarthmore. She wants a social life too. </p>

<p>Macalester: Didn't leave much of an impressions. </p>

<p>Oberlin: Way too hippy for her.</p>

<p>Kenyon: Seemed very pleasant. Strong writing - weaker science though. Is this reasonable to consider as a safety?</p>

<p>Haverford: Loved. In her top two at present (along with Vassar). Can't decide if should apply ED here or Vassar or Brown. Wouldn't be too small for her. </p>

<p>Amherst: At first thought kids were conceited but a second visit was more favorable. Is a legacy there and has a decent shot of admission. If she decided to do premed, would be terribly competitive for her given how bright peers would be, but we think she could handle other majors there.</p>

<p>Smith: Seemed too dominated by lesbian influence but impressive in all other ways. </p>

<p>Mt. Holyoke: Liked it a lot, particularly the science program. Would this be an appropriate safety? She could compete in premed there. But she doesn't really know yet which direction she will go academically although has been a science-oriented kid since toddlerhood. </p>

<p>Vassar: Loved it. Was top choice after realized Brown was such a long shot until she saw Haverford - now is torn between the two. </p>

<p>Wheaton (Mass.): Felt kids were not as sharp as she likes to be around. </p>

<p>Swarthmore: Kids study 24/7 there which is not what she wants.</p>

<p>Wesleyan: Was a bit too PC for her and a larger than she'd like, also not a gorgeous campus in her mind, but she liked it anyway and will apply. </p>

<p>So at this stage we think we have 8 schools to apply to, 3 reaches (Brown, Amherst, Wellesley), 4 matches (Haverford, Vassar, Wesleyan) and 2 safeties (Kenyon, Mt. Holyoke). </p>

<p>Are we on track? What other schools might fit her profile and interests? We've wondered if we should look at schools in the UK but heard you have to know your career focus in advance. Is that true?</p>

<p>Thankyou in advance. We really need the advice!</p>

<p>Sincerely, Befuddled</p>

2

<p>How about Connecticut College? Haverford and Wesleyan are unpredictable--they get lots of apps, so even if she's a match on paper it could go the other way for her.</p>

3

<p>Sounds like your daughter has many talents and terrific SAT scores. However, her class rank hurts . Check out the admission statistics for her Vassar, Wesleyan and Haverford and you will find that 70 to 80% of the applicants are in the top 10% of their class or better. You may want to add more safeties like Conn College, maybe Fairfield, and perhaps some of the Pa schools (if that is "East" enough) lperhaps, Dickinson and Franklin and Marshall. For a nominal fee, US News and World Report offers access to pretty detailed admission statistics .</p>

4

<p>I just wanted to add that Vassar, Kenyon and Brown are desperate (in a manner of speaking) for male candidates and that females don't have an edge. Vassar would be a good match on paper, but I have heard about very well qualified candidates being denied. Same thing at Brown.</p>

<p>Many LACs are in remote locations. I personally thought Bowdoin's location in Bruswick was not as remote as many.</p>

<p>Congrats to you guys, though, for seeing so many colleges! I'm very impressed!</p>

<p>Have you considered William and Mary? My daughter is interested. It's a beautiful place. Even though it's technically a university, it's more like a LAC with smallish classes and lots of contact with professors, who teach all the classes. TAs there really just assist. But because W&M is a state school, it an be tough for out of staters to be admitted, and I don't know about internationals.</p>

5

<p>From the Vassar Admitted Students web site:</p>

<p>Profile of the Students Admitted to the Vassar College Class of 2010</p>

<p>Applications</p>

<p>Completed Applications
6075</p>

<p>Total Admitted
1778</p>

<p>% Admitted
29%</p>

<h1>Admitted via Early Decision</h1>

<p>266</p>

<h1>Admitted in Regular Decision</h1>

<p>1512</p>

<p>Academic Credentials</p>

<p>High School Percentile Rank</p>

<p>(1130/1778 with rank=64%)
Cum. #
%</p>

<p>Top 5%
623
55% </p>

<p>Top 10%
845
75% </p>

<p>Top 15%
968
86% </p>

<p>Top 20%
1040
92% </p>

<p>Top 25%
1078
95% </p>

<p>Mean GPA (unweighted)
A-</p>

<p>SAT Distribution
Verbal
Math</p>

<p>750 +
34%
21%</p>

<p>700-749
29%
32%</p>

<p>650-699
24%
28%</p>

<p>600-649
10%
14%</p>

<p>550-599
3%
4%</p>

<p>550 or less
<1%
1%</p>

<p>Mean Score
715
698</p>

<p>Combined Mean
1413</p>

<p>Mid 50% Range
1350-1480</p>

<p>Mean Writing Score
705</p>

<p>ACT Composite (417 total)</p>

<p>Mean Score
31</p>

<p>Mid 50% Range
29-32</p>

<p>Home Residence </p>

<p>49 US states, DC, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands are represented, as well as students from 39 nations.</p>

<p>Top Ten States</p>

<p>New York
421</p>

<p>California
204</p>

<p>Massachusetts
135</p>

<p>New Jersey
133</p>

<p>Connecticut
92</p>

<p>Pennsylvania
85</p>

<p>Illinois
59</p>

<p>Maryland
51</p>

<p>Texas
44</p>

<p>Washington
31</p>

<p>39 Nations represented, including: Argentina, Australia, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, China, Ecuador, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Honduras, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Jamaica, Kenya, Korea, Mexico, Moldova, Nepal, Nicaragua, Pakistan, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Romania, Russia, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, United Kingdom, Vietnam, and Zimbabwe. </p>

<p>About 1/3 (32.6%) of those admitted are students of color.</p>

<p>11% of those admitted hold foreign citizenship.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
She's a suburban Caucasian kid who attended a strong private day school until we moved overseas. Thus she'll graduate from a school in a developing country and will be considered an international applicant.

[/quote]
Just an aside: is she a US citizen or green-card holder? The schools I'm familiar with treat citizens/permanent residents as domestic applicants even if they are living overseas currently. You may want to check this for the schools that end up on your D's list, she may <em>not</em> be considered "international".</p>

7

<p>Your daughter seems like a fine candidate, but she is in that anxiety-producing zone where she is qualified everywhere but not a shoe-in anywhere. The schools at the top of your list are very closely bunched -- there may be some difference between Amherst and Haverford and Wesleyan in selectivity, but not really enough to call the latter two "matches." And Vassar isn't so different from them, or Kenyon (or Wellesley, for that matter). You may want to think about a few more schools at what you think is your safety level (which I suspect is more like the "match"). Hamilton? Pitzer? Think about Macalester, Bates and Bowdoin again. Bryn Mawr (another slightly tough, but realistic -- next door to Haverford and much nicer looking). Also, maybe an actual safety (although Holyoke might work for that).</p>

<p>To be less dour, when you are worrying about her shadow rank at her former school -- where do kids at the bottom of the first quartile/top of the second at that school wind up going? At my kids' former private school, they go to the kinds of places on your list (although not Amherst or Brown). (And that dosn't make any of them "safe".) But you or your D must have a sense of where kids like her from that school have gotten in this year and last.</p>

8

<p>Your daughter has done a great job, especially in light of her ADHD. I think she has a chance to get in anywhere.</p>

<p>But given the competitive nature of these schools, especially recently, imo Haverford and Wesleyan would be considered at least match/reach for her. Probably same for Vassar.</p>

9

<p>The applications US Nationals living overseas are typically read by the same admissions officers reading applications from the area in which they reside-- in that sense they are generally read by the person who reads international applications- if you have visitors to your school from admissions offices, these are the people who typically read the applications- as they are more familiar with international schools. </p>

<p>How they are interpreted and evaluated is idiosyncratic (some schools consider them international for all intents and purposes-others do not). Financial aid is dependent on passport. </p>

<p>To the extent that life in a 3rd world country has impacted your daughter, and to the extent that she can meaningfully write about it, I think it provides something of a hook for a kid who otherwise look rather conventional on paper. </p>

<p>Connecticut College has lots of international kids- Trinity is the other Connecticut option. If you were midwest inclined you might think of Grinnell as well as a match. I agree that Haverford and Wesleyan, in particular, might be tougher than just match. If you live in Asia Wesleyan is particularly a challenge as they take a lot of Asian Nationals through the Freeman program, and look for other international diversity from their expats....</p>

<p>Based on what you have said I doubt she would be keen on Skidmore or Goucher, the other 2 my child, similar stats and profile, considered as safeties.</p>

10

<p>Sorry, just looked at another post of yours and see that she will be overseas for just one year.</p>

<p>A few thoughts (based more on that other post). IF she has organizational issues, trouble adjusting, wants to stay in in whatever country you are moving to....you might consider letting her do the full 2-year IB. Her GPA will likely go way up, she wil be a more international kid from the 'gee this girl brings some diversity to our school' perspective. That said, I know several kids who slotted into different IB schools their senior year and probably ended up with similar outcomes in terms of college as they would have had had they started HS at those schools. All the schools you are interested in have personal orientation in their admissions process. They will read her applications knowingly-- the bigger issue is- who will write her recommendations...</p>

11

<p>Great thoughts and advice so far - thank you! There was a comment about class rank and I want to run by you the feedback we've been given to see if it sounds right. At the school attended 9-11, pretty much the top 40-50% end up at the sort of schools we've looked at and our daughter is planning on applying to. Admissions are tough enough to get into the high school (average SSAT scores above 90th percentile) and the school has a good reputation. Technically, they don't report class rank although adcoms could estimate based on school profile. But when all the kids are so strong, we're told rank is less significant. The school being attended for 12th also does not report class rank. So we were hoping the rank issue might not be too important? </p>

<p>I agree we need more true safeties and thank you all for pointing that out. Given her interests in science and writing, not being a jock or particularly outdoorsy, liking a more intellectual than pre-professional student body, can anyone suggest which of these might be best: Ct College, Trinity, Hamilton, Colgate, William and Mary, Wheaton (Ma) (I forgot to mention we also looked at Bucknell which seemed too jocky, too conservative and too pre-business oriented). </p>

<p>Anitaw: We tried to talk her into staying overseas for an IB Diploma but she's eager to go to college, even if it means going to a "safety". I'm not so sure her GPA would have improved if she had elected to stay anyway, as our school here is very rigorous in that area and she hadn't had the proper prep for the classes she would likely have wanted to take. We've tried to increase her exposure to living in a developing country by spending the summer here where she worked full time with children with HIV and AIDS. She loved it, and it helped focus her interests as well as giving her some amazing insights culturally. However, she will have only been in this country for 6 months by the time RD applications are due, so it won't have had a major impact on her development as a person. Essay topics she's working on so far do not focus on this brief chapter of her life. We're told that there may be some slight advantage applying from overseas just because her application will be looked at more by itself than in comparison to the pool of applicants from her old school. </p>

<p>Does anyone have a thought on whether it would be throwing away a potential chip to go ED at Brown? Someone told her ED should be used for a reach school, and we think that may be the toughest of her list to get into. I know Amherst is tough too but she has a hook there. Add to the complications that in her small school here, one student is a legacy and will probably apply ED to Brown. I assume this girl is a strong candidate. </p>

<p>For Vassar and Haverford, would it increase her chances significantly to apply ED? She feels comfortable with any of Brown, Vassar or Haverford as a committment ED.</p>

12

<p>Advice from a soon-to-be college freshman who just went through the process.</p>

<p>As far as ED is concerned, I would advise your daughter to try for Brown. You said that she "fell totally in love with" the college, and that is the perfect (and as I see it, only) reason to apply ED. Don't worry about "wasting" the advantage an ED application may supply elsewhere; if she is accepted ED to a school that was not her first choice, she is bound to have some major regrets. </p>

<p>Second, as others have mentioned, her matches look a little "reach-y" to me. As far as safeties go, your daughter and I seem to have similar tastes in colleges (although I will be proudly attending one of the colleges she dismissed from consideration) so I will suggest some schools that were on my list when I applied. Goucher is a nice LAC in the East. If she would consider Midwestern schools, she could look into Lawrence University and Beloit in WI, Kalamazoo in MI, Knox in IL, and Grinnell in IA (not a safety, but I think she might like it).</p>

<p>Good luck to you and your daughter as you navigate this perilous process!</p>

13

<p>Befuddled, taking in everything you've mentioned, I do not see that it would be "throwing away a potential chip" to apply ED to Brown. Since she has had the benefit of having visited each of her favored schools and has arrived at Brown as her top choice, I'd say go for it. I think she is definitely in the mix and will be considered seriously. If she has good writing ability, she'll have the advantage of composing compelling personal statements that will enhance her chances. </p>

<p>It's notable that Brown considers 4 factors to be relatively "very important" in their review of applications: Academic rigor, talent/ability, character/personal qualities, and level of applicant's interest. Brown states that there is no strategic advantage to applying ED; however, its acceptance rate for ED is higher than RD, and in applying ED, it <em>does</em> demonstrate the level of interest, n'est pas?</p>

<p>I like your daughter's school choices, as they overlap with some of my daughter's from this past year, especially in the LACs. She also thought Swarthmore to be a bit "intense". Haverford was too small, too self-absorbed for her tastes. Wellesley had the same concern for her as it did for your daughter. Brown was her favored Ivy, with Dartmouth being second. Dartmouth was nixed off her list eventually because of its isolation and climate. Brown was a top choice of one of my daughter's best friends -- her friend's sister just graduated from Brown in Cognitive Sciences and will be doing graduate work at Dartmouth; her friend was accepted at Brown and would have enrolled had she not been accepted at Stanford. All of the schools on your daughter's list seem well-chosen based on her interests. I do think that Wesleyan and Kenyon are good MATCH to SAFETY schools. I think Vassar is a MATCH. My daughter decided to apply ED to Emory, was accepted and will be starting in a few weeks. I see that you've chosen to look at schools in the East. One of my daughter's other favorites -- in fact, it was her top choice for a long time, before her visit to Emory -- was Pomona College, part of the Claremont consortium of colleges. We have friends from our community whose daughter attends Emory as a Creative Writing major, and she couldn't be any happier. Your daughter sounds to have a similar disposition to our friends' daughter. Good luck!</p>

14

<p>Haveford, Vassar, Wesleyan are not matches if for no reason other than admission rates; they are reach/matches. If she applies ED they are a bit closer to matches.</p>

<p>Wellesley, on the other hand, is not a reach -- also more like a match/reach.</p>

<p>Kenyon is not a safety -- match/safety. (Curious that she found Bowdoin and Bates too remote but Kenyon was okay.)</p>

<p>For more of a safety: try Skidmore.</p>

15

<p>While she may have had a less extended experience abroad then some by the time she writes, simply the thinking about moving overseas as a HS senior- what you learned about yourself, can be worth writing about as an essay-- if written by a good writer. One girl i know who made a similar change took it as a chance to 'redefine' herself in some ways, and then wrote about this. She goes to Brown now! (not kidding-but see caveat below). An essay written for an ED application gives less time for this marinating to take place...</p>

<p>As to your particular question about Brown, my guess is you need to talk with the GC at the new school about their experience with Brown in particular- does the school take more than 1/year from the new school? This might give your answer. All the expat kids I know who are attending Brown now have been legacies...otherwise Brown has seemed to have liked taking stellar true International kids...just a general observation. </p>

<p>As to the not ranking piece, I think it really won't be an issue for your daughter as it would be like comparing apples and oranges. When the schools don't rank they still submit a profile of their grades that show what quintile a given GPA is in. But, your daughter's transcript will reflect that all her grades are from another school.</p>

16

<p>Brown is much less predictable than any other school. See what the admissions track record is for your daughter's high school. FWIW, you will find that many of the kids at both Vassar and Wesleyan consider themselves to be "happy Brown rejects."</p>

17

<p>i think she would really like connecticut college</p>

18

<p>If she really loved Brown, she should apply ED, and make sure her application shows why Brown is her top choice.</p>

<p>You mentioned Trinity...I assume CT...could be a good choice. May be the most similar to Brown but smaller. </p>

<p>Still no real safeties...and I would urge an EA school, or a couple of rolling admissions school. Conn College, Franklin and Marshall and Dickinson were mentioned...you could add Denison to them. However...locations of those schools (small cities) are more similar to Vassar and Wesleyan.</p>

19

<p>/\ 2boys -I don't think she can apply anywhere EA if she applies ED to Brown.</p>

20

<p>I think Wellesley is more of a match than a reach. She needn't worry about boyfriend possibilities if she goes to this particular all-woman school. The social opportunities in and around Boston/Cambridge for Wellesley students are more than ample.</p>

<p>Reading through her reactions, my own point of view is that she should seriously consider NOT doing an ED application <em>anywhere</em>. She has several schools she likes a lot; kids are often finding that the ED "chip" results in a deferral/rejection, which can be a big and unnecessary downer. With her having strong positive feelings toward at least 3 schools, if not more, and with the way that some kids' preferences evolve from now through May, I think she might be better off having a number of acceptances to choose from in May.</p>

<p>I'm thinking Wheaton is a safety, but the best safety - as suggested above - would be a place with EA/rolling admissions.</p>