Advice on doing a Masters before PhD

Hey College Confidential, fairly long post incoming!

My question is really about whether its worth it enrolling in a masters program to strengthen your credentials before applying to a PhD program.

A bit of back ground - I’m a student from New Zealand, double majored physics/maths in undergrad and currently finishing my honours in pure mathematics. I would really like to get into a top 25 math PhD program, but on the international stage I doubt I’d make the cut. Here’s what I’ve got:

Projected GPA by end of honours: 3.3 (rough estimate because we use a different system). . My grades in the first 2 years were worse (laziness, how I wish I could turn back the clock), but I got consistent A+ grades in all my maths courses since 3rd year.
Extra-curriculars:

  • Various physics and maths TA roles
  • 2 summer research scholarships in physics, and have potentially secured a research job in maths this coming summer. Also applying to some overseas summer research programs but no promises there.
  • Have been working at a physics lab for 2 years, over which I’ve had 4 different small projects. My current project (simulations, very applied maths based) is quite detailed and my supervisor believes has a fairly good chance of leading to a publication (if it it would be after application deadlines).
  • Choir (2.5 years)
  • Physics society (4 years, have been Vice President and President).
  • Part of a large engineering/physics research group that designed and launched a small satellite.
  • Was part of a selective mentoring/seminar program for 2 years during undergrad geared towards preparing students for research
  • Summer job working at observatory
  • I’m confident my recommendations will be quite positive.
  • Significant high school ECs are math olympiad, informatics olympiad and successfully competing overseas in international choir competitions.
  • Not sure if this is significant but after high school I got into some US universities (couldn’t go because funding). The best was UCLA.

As you can see my ECs are VERY physics heavy because I changed course from physics to maths in 3rd year, and haven’t had any luck finding maths projects since. I haven’t sat my GREs yet, and am told the maths GRE is reasonably hard.

The way I see it now - I could shoot for a PhD now and most likely get something short of what I want, or do a masters and re-apply next year with a better chance. Some people say getting a masters is a waste of time, but if I go into a PhD having already researched for a year in my field, I could perhaps even finish my PhD earlier, or at least pump out a higher quality thesis.

Thanks in advance for thoughts.

What PhD programs have recent graduates of your program been admitted to recently. Find out about that from your professors.

Nothing from high school is important now. ECs aren’t important now. What matters are your grades, your GRE scores and your research/publications/internships/professional work in your projected field of study.

One thing to mention is that from my understanding, US PhD programs often come with funding attached and that makes them much more competitive to get into than other English speaking countries where it’s much more common to offer admits without funding.
I know of a few people aiming at top US PhDs who attended part IIi maths at Cambridge (I believe reputed to be one of the most rigorous math masters out there) to boost their chances.
So all of the above is second hand info but from people I know who were looking at this.
Also I don’t know the NZ grading system but if 3.3 means the same as in the US, it’s probably not enough for a top 25 program. If your grades have been on a significant upward trend then a masters solidifying that could be useful. And…i’d expect the math GRE to be hard, and for that to be ok for a person aiming at a PhD?

“I know of a few people aiming at top US PhDs who attended part III maths at Cambridge (I believe reputed to be one of the most rigorous math masters out there) to boost their chances.”

This would be a good suggestion (if you could afford it), but I don’t think you will be admitted without a first. Is that likely to be the case in your final year exams?

As the course pages note “The Part III cohort is a large and diverse group and contains some of the best mathematicians from all over the world.“

In the pure math field, are students greatly disadvantaged in top 25 US PhD programs if their non-course related work is internships and TA-ships rather than research and publications? Internships and TA roles often pay well for undergrads and a lot of students don’t have the luxury to turn those down in favor of pure research. Can excellent grades, great recommendations, TA-ships and math-related internships compensate for a lack of pure math research and authorship? (not sure how OP’s grades translate on the US scale so I’m looking at the best case scenario)

@Otterma I’m not sure what you would do in a (pure) “math-related internship” if it wasn’t academic research? Pure math is not exactly a subject replete with real world applications, like say computer science.

^ sorry, perhaps I was not clear - the comment about Cam part III was intended to illustrate that even top students find an advantage from doing a masters before applying for PhD programs. (Quite frankly from what I know of it and what OP has described, I don’t think s/he is a likely candidate for admission. But another masters elsewhere may be a good idea of s/he is serious about pursuing admission to a top program.)

@Twoin18 I meant any math related internship, which is going to be applied math or CS or engineering. Essentially, my question is: how disadvantaged are students like OP in getting into top pure math PhD programs if, by necessity or choice, their experience is in work rather than research?..assuming they are excellent candidates in other ways.

Thanks everyone. My financial situation is quite poor and I really don’t have the luxury of enrolling in an overseas masters program with anything less than close to a full scholarship (from what I know these are rare for masters programs). With that in mind my plan was to stay at my home university (which does have a history of placing students in top maths programs), hopefully ace my masters and show that I’m competent at the graduate level and then re-apply next year.

@Twoin18 I’m not sure what you mean by a first. Do you mean a first class honours? If so that is very likely at this rate.

Have you considered doing a masters in Europe? A lot of countries have free tuition, and provide programs taught in English. It would give you some more research experience, and adcoms would see that you can handle graduate level coursework.

I know that German unis like LMU Munich, Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin, and Freie Universität Berlin all have free tuition, so you would only have to pay the cost of living. The German government may even give you scholarships (look up DAAD). Many programs are even 1-year, so you aren’t “wasting” a lot of time (though it’s not wasting if it gets you into a better program!)

I know the Netherlands asks for kinda high tuition, so I wouldn’t look there, but Austria etc is also free tuition. These are all still top-notch programs, so look up the course content and decide which works best for you. Good luck!

Wait a minute. Why do you think internships are worse than research? Where I come from, summer internship in math IS the research, research in pure math resulting in publications and such…

For the sciences at the University of California, there is (usually) no separate masters degree program; a graduate student who fails to advance to Ph.D. candidacy, for example, not passing his oral examination, might be considered by the school to have a masters degree conferred upon him. This type of selection mechanism might be true for other universities (especially those in the ‘top’ tier) in the US. A masters from the Chemistry department at UC. Berkeley means that person had failed to advance to Ph.D candidacy.

You are incorrect. Berkeley doesn’t, but UCLA has a MS program in physics, as do UC Davis and UCSD. The UCs have masters programs in mathematics. Many science programs have masters degrees in STEM fields, especially in math and physics, which feed into industry.

However, master’s students are rarely supported the way that PhD students are, so the OP would not likely be able to afford a masters program in the USA.

However, @Ihazmuffin, I think that doing a masters in NZ may be a good idea. Because you did a lot better on your last two years than you did on your freshman and sophomore years, you would likely do a lot better for your masters. A thesis masters would also allow you to publish at least one article, shifting the focus away from grades and to your research abilities and achievements. A masters in an Australian university could also work, if it is financially feasible.

What can matter more is rigor, grades, and experiences in the relevant studies, not pure gpa for all undergrad courses.

You need to be exploring this with current faculty advisors. They’re critical in assessing you, suggesting programs, and their LoRs.

Your research interests need to align with what profs in those programs are doing. Not just dept reputation.

And you’d benefit from knowing how/how long a program is funded by the U (to the dept, not talking about any aid to you.) Eg, some Masters are really only designed for 2 years, not a leisurely chance to explore, get your bearings.

No idea how you learn this, but it can pressure a dept to get you done.