<p>The kid across the street from me is a language major (in a language with few majors) at Penn and he took calc there his freshman year. He may have had some calc in high school but definitely not AP, even though it was available. Not a math or science person.</p>
<p>It's not as if the kid is on some remedial track. He'll take calculus as a senior. My D is on the same track as him: 9 - Geometry high honors & HH Bio; 10 - HH Alg II & HH Chem; 11 - HH Precalc & HH Physics; 12 - AP Calc & her choice of an AP science. Other kids from her school have done just beautifully in admissions with this track. It would allow room for double language if desired, but not be so weak in math/science that a kid couldn't pursue those subjects in college. My D is not the least bit interested in pursuing math/science, so she thought it was silly to double up just to look good for college admissions. She can look good in other ways, as can the OP's son. It's hardly a shabby curriculm track.</p>
<p>I think calculus as a senior should be fine. At d's high school, only the math geniuses take calculus as juniors. And they sent students to all of the Ivies this year, students with free rides to top universities, and others to top schools (top 50 universities & LACs). And this was true even for those kids who do want to major in math and science.</p>
<p>Everybody breathe deeply. There's more to life than Ivies, and more to high school than pushing for "the top college." Start ratcheting up the stress level in 8th grade or the summer before 9th, and you could very well end up with a kid with ulcers! Particularly for a kid who, apparently, doesn't want to do it!</p>
<p>I wasn't so much asking about the OP as about the general statement in the reply post above in this thread. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Kids get into ivys every day without even taking regular calculus
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I wonder how general that is. It surely happens, yes, because Harvard requires NOTHING in course selection as a strict college entrance requirement, not even a high school diploma, but generally one has to be a standout student to get into the most competitive colleges. So what I'm asking about is </p>
<p>a) how many kids without calculus (at all) in high school get into Ivy League colleges? </p>
<p>b) which Ivy League colleges are those, and what do the students major in in college? </p>
<p>(I've received a few answers above already.) I thought the OP received reasonable answers to the original questions in this thread, which is why I haven't jumped in till now. </p>
<p>Here are figures from College Board, via the Mathematical Association of America, on advanced math study by high school students in the United States: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.maa.org/columns/launchings/launchings_05_07.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.maa.org/columns/launchings/launchings_05_07.html</a> </p>
<p>(See table "Calculus before Grade 12")</p>
<p>In my neck of the woods, absolutely non competitive area, huge majority goes to little known state school, there is a big push among the parents of "able" kids to jump onto the fast math track as early as possible.
I personally know a parent who volunteered to tech geometry to a few able 7 graders at a local private. However, our best known local private HS has a policy of not startnig freshman higher than Algebra II ( a policy that I personally do not agree with, but it is my problem). My son is already in the calculus trap
<a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/AoPS_R_A_Calculus.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/AoPS_R_A_Calculus.php</a>
but there was really no other way for him. We will have to looh for other options.</p>
<p>Someone here mentioned that there are kids who get into top colleges without ever taking a physics course. This is something I totally oppose. I think you should be exposed to all three big sciences before you enter college.
And yes, there are those who are preaching to teach physics before biology and chemistry, based on the notion that it is the most logical and predictable of all three. One happens to be a close friend of mine, not surprisingly he is a physicist. Most HS however would oppose that idea and have students start with biology.
The crowd here on cc is different from majority of hs students and parents, from reading the posts one gets the impression that in order to be right on par with other competitive kids one should have a calculus course under the belt while finishing hs. And from OP explantion I gather that her son would not have problems achieving that. One way or the other.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think you should be exposed to all three big sciences before you enter college.
[/quote]
I do, too. D's school requires a year each of bio, chem, & physics. College prep is the lowest level, followed by honors, high honors, and AP. You can't take an AP class in any of those until you have completed a non-AP level & achieved a certain grade. No girl may take more than one AP science per year. No summer courses are allowed, and only a few designated dual enrollment college courses are included on the transcript & factored into GPA. If you take some college courses on your own, that's between you & the colleges to which you apply; but it won't gain you any kind of leg up in the high school pecking order. Also, no extra credit assignments are allowed -- you have to hit the ground running in every class, knowing you will not have any extra credit to raise a low grade. I think this really cuts down on the frenzy of loading up on APs & encourages all the girls to take their classes seriously while finding one that moves at an appropriate speed. AP passing rates are triple the national average (100% in most classes) and 100% of the graduates go on to four year colleges.</p>
<p>Streak,
have a look at this thread
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=320343%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=320343</a>
HS students are discussing their math sequence.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <blockquote> <p>Harvard requires NOTHING in course selection as a strict college entrance requirement, not even a high school diploma>>></p> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Yes, not even a high school diploma. I know someone who got in to Harvard without a high school diploma. Today she is a well-published and highly regarded author whose books have been translated into multiple languages throughout the world. (You guessed it, this was a few decades ago).</p>
<p>streak, here's another vote for the non-doubling if that isn't his interest. If the science track he wants to pursue is fine with the math track he is currently on, leave it as-is and let him enjoy the 2 languages etc.</p>
<p>My daughters' private school only allows scheduling 6 courses per year and she decided to start Chinese this year in addition to Latin. This meant dropping chorus, which was her most favorite class. We battled with the administration to let her to take both, but they insist apon a free period during the day. When we needed to rework her schedule to add chorus back in for the rest of the years, she is going to end up not taking a science class Junior year and delay Physics to senior year. Although the Physics class doesn't require calculus, she will be taking calc senior year and hopefully this will make things smoother. Science is her least favorite and lowest graded subject. She really has a knack for languages, top kid in both, plus her other interests are humanities, so we think having only 3 years of science will be fine for her.</p>
<p>If the current math track will put him at a disadvantage for his science pursuits, the summer program idea is a good one. Many programs at prep schools or pre-college programs would allow him to take 2-3 courses and get a feel for college life as well. Since this wouldn't require doubling, it could be done at a summer where it is convenient.</p>
<p>If the OP's question is still open, I second the advice given by thumper1 in #26. That is, ask the teacher about the recommendation to double up--except that I wouldn't ask for supporting data, I'd just ask for the rationale, and assume that there might be a good one (at least as my starting point). Every school district is different. As mentioned by kathiep, in some schools, when you're on block scheduling, "doubling up" may mean having math both semesters, rather than just one. In that case, I wouldn't see it as a real math overload. Also, if the alternative allows taking two languages, how many years of both languages would be involved?</p>
<p>I was the one who mentioned a kid who is at an Ivy without having done physics. That being said, my D took it her freshman year but was only on an average math track (Geometry as a freshman) and she found it very difficult mostly, she felt, because she didn't have the math background. She had no choice but to take it as a freshman, but I don't really understand that logic.
Okay, now my other D is a sophmore with a learning difference which makes math and mathy science very challenging. She did very well in freshman bio and is now in Marine Bio while she waits for her math to catch up (she's now in Geometry) before she can do chemistry or physics next. If she were to do only one lab science (she may try and do all three) does anyone have an opinion as to which one (chemistry or physics) would be easier while she's concurrently taking Algebra II. Incidentally, she did very well in (of course non honors) Algebra I as a freshman, geometry is extra hard, she has visual/spatial processing issues. Sorry if I'm kind of moving away from the original post, it just seemed like there were people here who were very knowledgable about science and high school math. Thanks.</p>
<p>I don't think there's an easy answer to whether chemistry or physics is easier. My younger son who has trouble with memorization, thinks physics is easier because it is more logical. He's taking it concurrently with 3rd year high school math (which around here is a mix of geometry and algebra 2.) I think some of his problem was just a lousy chem teacher though.</p>
<p>BTW around here Geometry (or at least 2nd level high school math) is not the average track for freshman.</p>
<p>If he prefers to study two languages instead of doubling up on math, I suggest to let him to it. He can still take Calculus in senior year, which is what most students aiming for top schools do. Chinese and French are two demanding languages to learn and are not mutually reinforcing (as would Latin and French or Spanish and Italian). So he would have a plenty rigorous curriculum.</p>
<p>mathmom, just curious, do you mean taking geometry as a sophmore is above average or below average? At D's school these are the math tracks for sophmore year: Algebra 2 (honors and reg), Geometry (honors an reg.) and intermediate algebra (which is like Algebra I +, it satisfies the UC requirement, these kids will take Geometry next year and probably never take full algebra II). So my daughter is kind of in the lower middle. Is that unusual where you are?</p>
<p>I'd like to chime in again and add that while two languages might look good, I don't know very many people that get much out of high school language courses, so if he's serious about learning them, I'd imagine that most of his learning would be happening outside the classroom. That is also a time commitment, just as an extra math class would be if not more.</p>
<p>I just realized I misread mathmom's post. I was talking about first daughter's math track, which was average for her school at the time, taking geometry in ninth. Second D seems to be about average for her (different) school, taking it in tenth. Sorry!</p>