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<p>Unfortunately the presence of ALL those elements is even rarer than Stanford’s admission rate! :)</p>
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<p>This probably is on the same level as the mythical value of spending time interviewing alumni. </p>
<p>My D is applying to 5 safeties. 3 are only true safeties if her admission comes with substantial merit aid. And there’s no question, she could end up with full tuition scholarships at all 5 of her safeties. However, she could just as easily be shut out from significant merit aid at any or all of them. We hope not to have to resort to a safety, but if we do, only 1 of them really shines for her - if that one shuts her out from decent merit aid, then we’ll try to play the remaining schools against each other. It may not work but if it does, it could save us many thousands. The applications for all of the safeties are simple common apps. I know at least one of the schools waives the fee if you apply online. I can’t see any reason to trim her list of safeties - the few hundred extra we pay up front could potentially save us 10’s of thousands of dollars in the end. I would not object at all if she added 3 or 4 more safeties to her current list.</p>
<p>A true safety school (which has become a poor name that should be replaced by a likely and realistic school) is a school that one should be HAPPY to attend and one that the parents are able, willing, and happy to pay for. </p>
<p>It is not the school that one might attend with some dejection because all other choices (and often unrealistic) did not work out. There are fabulous schools that are still highly likely for competitive students. </p>
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<p>Happiness is relative. Our D can certainly be happy at any one of her safeties. She’s not applying to any schools she’s certain she truly doesn’t like - I can think of a half dozen schools right off the top of my head that held no charm for her. Several of those schools were more prestigious than the schools to which she’s ultimately decided to apply. (She didn’t like Harvard or Northeastern, for example. Nor did she like the University of Scranton, which would’ve been a great safety school for her). But it would be dishonest to pretend that she likes her safeties nearly as much as she likes her top two (or even 3) choices. </p>
<p>“A true safety school (which has become a poor name that should be replaced by a likely and realistic school) is a school that one should be HAPPY to attend and one that the parents are able, willing, and happy to pay for.”</p>
<p>Lovely in theory. Why not just eliminate ALL of the expense, effort, and aggravation and only apply to the safety if makes everyone so “HAPPY”?</p>
<p>Let me rephrase it. Safety should be a school that is very likely to admit, affordable, and you don’t mind going there at the end when everything else failed…</p>
<p>I don’t think you have to rephrase. My kid would probably be “happy” at any one of 100 schools, because it’s all college (and away from home), but some would make him happier than others. </p>
<p><a href=“http://24hoursofhappy.com/”>Pharrell Williams - Happy;
<p>^^Yes. I do think that when it comes to safety schools a shouted HAPPY for both parents and student is nearly impossible. My D’s top safety has a lot going for it - very strong in her EC, excellent location, honors housing, etc. However, we’d really like to keep all costs under 30k. Stats wise, she’ll almost certainly be in the top one percent of their applicant pool, but that doesn’t guarantee that they’ll give her enough merit for us to be able to afford it. She understands that she could quite possibly receive a financial rejection even from them. </p>
<p>I have a nephew who needs a lot more aid than my daughter who is being much pickier about his schools. His SATs are slightly lower and his EC’s can’t hold a candle to hers. I heard my D telling him that St. Joe’s (a school we can afford for her to commute in the unlikely event that she receives no merit) is fine and it should be on his safety list. But he won’t put it on his safety list because he thinks it’s beneath him. He’s a smart, hardworking boy and I suspect SJU would love to have more boys just like him and would reward him handsomely with a ton of merit if he applies. But the thought that he deserves to LOVE everything about his school is holding him back. The idea that there’s this perfect safety school is poison and could quite possibly end up costing him 80k in loans when he could probably go to SJU for little or no loans.</p>
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<p>Relative or not, with more than 4,000 colleges in the nation why would anyone apply to a school that does not provide a right fit, or at least a fit that would make the student happy to attend? </p>
<p>Is it the term “happy” that appears to be annoying? I used that term in response to “only one school that … shines” and my reaction was about the need to apply to a school that seems to be a distant second, third, or whatever number can be applied to a choice. </p>
<p>My point here is very simple. I fully understand that there are schools that represent “dream schools” and offer all th bells and whistles that will generate the oohs and aahs from the outsiders. College Confidential covers such schools in great details. One can indeed dream and take the expectations a bit lower and look at schools that appear easier to gain admittance, and lastly add the schools that would be highly likely in terms of acceptance, with possible merit aid. However, such schools should not be culled from a list of schools that are not attractive. That is what I meant with … happy to attend. </p>
<p>What needs to be avoided is the typical (and silly) post in April that reads “Rejected by all Ivies and matches and now all I have is the safety I … hate. What now, I will NOT go to the safety and prefer to take a gap year and try again.” Such accounts are simplty evidence of a poorly planned list and evidence of the horrible advice often shared in high schools. </p>
<p>For the record, I applied to five schools and had three acceptances by Thanksgiving, and waited for April to hear from my two reaches. Granted, the benefit of automatic admissions to the Texas flagships makes the term “safety” a bit ambivalent, but it is hardly the only state with a great public university. Regardless of the April outcome, I would have been thrilled to attend any of the three “safeties” but obviously had my preference of Honor program. When the other acceptances rolled in, I had few problems making the final choice. I think that such decision would have been an ordeal with more than 5 choices. My younger sister only applied to two schools and was done by December 1st. </p>
<p>Times might have changed in the past decade, but not … that much! </p>
<p>i have never understood the reaches as “all the Ivies”. Some of these colleges are in remote locations, some are not strong in son’s interests. Other CS schools are in climates too cold for son’s tastes. Two state schools–UF and U Miami–were true safeties in that stats were listed, and merit awards quite specific. (Actually, son only applied to 1 of these 2, against my wishes). Ideally, if one is a senior, at least 1 EA school should be secured by December, allowing the student to narrow his/her list.</p>
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<p>I disagree with the tenor of both these quotes. (Really? “When everything else failed?”) Some kids actually ARE happy with their safety, and believe it or not, some kids prefer/chooser their safety over their match schools.</p>
<p>It’s not an urban myth. My own D happily, enthusiastically, and whole-heartedly chose to attend her safety over more highly raked schools. Initially, she loved the setting and was impressed with the offerings in her major. Looking back, she loved the school and her professors, graduated without debt and without regret, and is now employed in her field of study. </p>
<p>She was happy. We were happy because she was happy (and because she did get some merit money). What’s not to like?</p>
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<p>In my view, this is what happens when so much emphasis is placed on HAPPY instead of doable. This is why it’s important to have a lot of safeties if it comes down to them. In an absolute worst case zero merit money admissions scenario, my D has 3 schools she’ll be able to consider and she knows she could be happy (if not quite HAPPY) at any of them. She already prefers all of them to Harvard and Northeastern so I’d say we’re off to a good start. She also prefers all of them to Temple, a school that would have been a safety among safeties since it is commutable and free for her. I’m not worried about having to turn to the safeties that are on her list if that’s what it comes down to and I would have no objection about her expanding her safety list to include other schools.</p>
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<p>I think we probably agree. My S will likely only apply to two schools. Both could be considered safeties since he shouldn’t have any trouble getting in and we can afford them. However, I’m not certain I’d call them safeties since he doesn’t have a reach or a match school.</p>
<p>My D on the other hand has a definite reach school, a definite match school, and several others on her list that fall somewhere lower in her preferences - I’m calling those safeties. However, I also would not be shocked if one of her safeties suddenly rises to the top for her if she is offered a full ride. I could see her thinking - “hmm, if I go here, I can do lots of travelling and maybe even have a car on campus…”</p>
<p>I am another strong proponent of applying to rolling admission or EA schools. Getting into one early takes the pressure off your child. With our second, he applied early to Illinois and Michigan along with ED to Penn. He planned on applying to about 10-15 other schools. He heard first from Michigan and Illinois and his acceptances caused him to drop some of the schools on his prospective list because he would have been happy to go to Michigan. All of the remaining prospective schools were reaches (i.e Ivies, Stanford, Duke, etc). Luckily he then got positive news from Penn and he did not need to complete the remaining application he had ready to file.</p>
<p>I have one other comment regarding the OP’s post. For those of us not on the east coast, the 4 hour limitation does not make sense. We live outside of Chicago and if we stuck to the 4 hour rule there would not be many top options (probably Northwestern, Chicago, Illinois, Notre Dame and Wisconsin). Even Michigan maybe outside the 4 hour barrier. Plus once they go off to school there is not much of difference between being 2 hours away and 2,000 mile away (provided flights are available). For instance when I went to college I was a 10 hour flight away from home and beig closer would not have meant I would have gone home any more frequently. </p>
<p>I have to agree with many of you regarding the 4-hour rule. All of this depends on your family situation and what your child and family is willing to do for an education. For our household, applying to colleges is all consuming. The very extremely personal information and extended hours of the application process is not for the faint hearted. Many parents have asked me how do I do it. It’s no secret how our D’s have gotten into top notch schools. They work their a’s off and sacrifice a lot. They labor extensively over the essays and tests. They lead and fail with blinders on hoping to someday get somewhere – wherever the getting is. Given these facts, however, they apply only to the schools they feel they will likely attend. Each of them applied to 9 schools (3 reach, 3 safety, 3 match) and 1 by default (in both their cases, it was the same school that required no application fee and no deadline and was in a familiar city to them). </p>
<p>My advice is to pay attention to the application process. Neither of my D’s found it feasible to visit all the schools. It was too costly and time consuming for us. </p>
<p>They should study for the SAT. Use Barron’s study guides. If the kid is a self starter, invest in study guides, and if not, spend the money you would have spent on those costly college applications, on a good review course. </p>
<p>Be as organized as possible. I have two expandable folders per kid. One for grades, test scores, and awards, CSS, FAFSA, scholarship applications. The other one is to hold all of the needed information for the colleges they apply to, and their high school transcript request forms. (We don’t see letters of recommendation). That being said, the kid should do most of the work and, whenever possible, they should apply for scholarships as much as they can without sacrificing their sanity. I helped by looking for scholarship opportunities – along with them–but If they didn’t want to apply to the 20th scholarship opportunity because they were tired of asking a teacher for the 10th time for a recommendation, then didn’t push it. They can always get a job to help pay for college. </p>
<p>Visit if you can. But I hope colleges admission officers are not as shallow to think that everyone can and will visit when they are interested. It’s just not practical nor possible for everyone.</p>
<p>And yes your student won’t be taking classes from admissions officers, but parents will be most likely be paying the bills. Admissions offices need to get their act together. If you don’t have a well organized event where you show concern and some kind of enthusiasm, then I’m sorry, I won’t hesitate to turn my kid against the school. I don’t care how much she loves it. From my standpoint, gas is high and time is money.</p>
<p>Next, when you do visit, do the tour. All the colleges say basically the same thing on these visits. But, grab a student newspaper and read it! Grab a past issue if you can find one. Ride around the city, go to the local hangouts and talk to some students. Ask them what they think. Do they like it? How is the diversity on campus (if this means anything to you)? Are classes easy to get into? Where do freshmen live? Can transportation be accessed? Do students live on campus and is it cost effective? Are freshmen required to take on-line courses? How safe is campus? Do you see safety lights? Is there accessible health care? Check out the campus police for crime stats. </p>
<p>In the end, one of our D’s went to a school she had only set foot on for less than an hour on a Sunday (no calling in advance or registering) while passing through on a family trip. She did not attend the accepted students event for the school she chose. This kid got into P, Y, and others. She attended only two accepted students events and she wound up deciding against the ivies. The other is going to a school she didn’t expect to apply to but did so at the last minute at my suggestion. She had visited the school two years prior with her oldest sister. She attended a few accepted students’ events but not the one where she is going – an ivy. </p>
<p>Because all of the schools for our D’s were good choices, it came down to money and we are not made of it. This so called “expected family contribution” is a joke. Middle class is only a step to wealth if you are sure you won’t die while saving and don’t have kids. The truth is, if you are not extremely wealthy, it should be called the "sell -your- house- and- your- stuff and -don’t -save -for -retirement - and -send- the -last- kid -to -community- college " contribution. Oh, and one more thing, drive only one car if you need it–we do. And, also, forget about smart phones. They are really dumb. </p>
<p>If you can find a family making 185k per year with 3 kids to send to school living in an expensive area who can, without outside contributions, afford to send each kid to college that costs 100k or more per child, then I will be knocked over with a feather. </p>
<p>The college application process is not just about filling out a name and address. It is a culmination of all the ideologies of what it means to be educated. For me, it means an opportunity to shape my child. For a kid, it could mean just earning a paycheck to afford to be able to do what you want. But, there is no guarantee at any of these schools, that your kid won’t get a TA or adjunct professor, or whatever. In these times, we are just paying for a chance. </p>
<p>In terms of cost, I told my D’s, how much they would expect to pay with interest (to the best of my ability) but I know there is no way either of them could even truly comprehend what it means to be on your own and in debt so high that you can’t see paying it off in 10 or 20 years. </p>
<p>In the end, I am left with mixed feelings. I think college is way to expensive. I think it’s ludicrous that a gap year now means spending more money to travel and explore what makes “you” before going to college. What about a gap year just for working to save money?</p>
<p>Only the very wealthy and the very poor can really afford to send their kids to college. </p>
<p>My two cents. </p>
<p>I thought my daughter was happy with her safeties, she said she was, but boy, did she drop them when the better admissions came in. I’m not sure, regardless of their espoused views, that many kids understand safeties as happy and may really think them satisfactory, okay, a place holder representing the rest of their adult live. I was a bit surprised as we had visited and picked them out with some care. Of course, some kids love their safeties, and some just apply to one or three schools, but when they start filling out a lot of applications and reading CC, things get shifted. </p>
<p>She applied to 10, but with high scores, her matches and even some safeties were a bit chancy: 1 state (extra safe) and 2 private safeties/matches, 3 matches, and 4 reaches. She got into the safeties and matches, wait listed at 2 reaches, rejected at one, and accepted at the most competitive school in the list (HYPS). We found that the 10 applications were all we could manage well. Managing essays with a heavy school load was a lot for her, and I found the FAFSA and Profile on 10 more than enough work for me as was writing the application checks.</p>
<p>The issue of finding a safety is so complicated, and so fraught, that I hesitate even to chime in, but I think that the reality <em>for high-stat kids</em> who don’t want to attend their state’s school is that the insistence on a safety one would be Happy To Attend is unrealistic. Often, people on CC forget that state schools are not always a viable choice, either because they are not safeties, since they are so highly-regarded, or because they are not, in fact, highly-regarded. There are frequent posters on CC who like to point out that, if a school is large enough, a smart kid can always find some other smart kids to take classes with, but that ignores the fact that most classes will of necessity be aimed at kids who are not nearly as smart. For a kid who has been frustrated in high school by this kind of teaching to the middle, this will not be satisfactory, especially if he is looking at graduating with major debt afterward; for a parent looking at a price tag of 30k up, this is not an attractive use of hard-earned cash. It’s not reasonable to pretend that a kid whose stats made him a reasonably good candidate for Williams, let’s say, should be able to pivot and declare with conviction that he would be Happy to attend the University of Connecticut. What I take from that is that a safety for such a kid is really a safety net, and that his best bet is to spend a fair amount of time and energy on finding true matches, and concentrate on them rather than on reaches; to look for good EA possibilities; and to write the best essays of which he is capable, which probably means restricting the number of applications to those which canbe done well.</p>
<p>Just as a side note, I was glad to see the comments about William and Mary in the OP. I have no connection to the school but have visited. I think it is truly one of the most underrated schools in the country. Beautiful campus, first class professors and a student body that appears to have found a good balance between academics and college fun. The students also seem to do exceptionally well with graduate school placement and I perceive it is vey well respected in the academic community. Hoping it will stay on my D’s list.</p>
<p>My goddaughter goes to W & M and absolutely loves it!</p>
<p>I also think the 4 hour rule is ridiculous. Depending on where you live, there may not be great options within 4 hours… Also if you are looking at fit/affordability the best choices can be very far away. My D is 800 miles from home and is very definitely in the right place. I have a number of friends whose kids are 1/2 way across the country and their kids are having truly life changing experiences.</p>
<p>With D15, all of the places she is interested in are 6+ hours away and that is OK with us.</p>