Advide about Pre-Med track

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>While I do not question the success of Princeton pre-meds, I do think one needs to keep in mind where that success comes from. When you have the top students in the country, it doesn’t take a genius to get them into medical school. Brown has rates similar to Princeton and as far as my experience went, some of the advice I received was genuinely bad advice. For example, I was told as a sophomore student interested in MD/PhD that “getting involved in research now isn’t that important and if it’s meant to be you’ll find your way into it.”</p>

<p>I’m not saying what Princeton says about choosing courses is wrong (hell, I did exactly what they’re advocating with chemistry), I’m just saying to be wary because the success of Princeton students could easily have nothing to do with who’s advising them there.</p>

<p>And, FWIW, while obviously not all of them are pre-meds, Brown often has ~25% of the class intending to study bio/life sciences (here’s a recent number: <a href=“http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2011/03/2015[/url]”>http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2011/03/2015&lt;/a&gt;), so I wouldn’t be surprised if Princeton had similar numbers.</p>

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<p>One does not agrue with experience.</p>

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<p>I clearly said it was a “guess”. But that guess is based on a lot of reading of college newspapers and sitting through admissions presentations. In general, 20-25% of Frosh in a typical Arts & Science college class are premed/prehealth. (There is no reason for P’ton to be that much different since it doesn’t offer undergrad biz, which skews the denominator.) At schools like Hopkins, Emory and Rochester, known to be premed ‘places-to-be’, the % of incoming premeds is even higher.</p>

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<p>bluebayou I like your style.</p>

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<p>BB is absolutely correct. D2 graduated from one the premed ‘places-to-be’ listed above and 40% of her freshman class declared themselves premed. </p>

<p>I’d venture BB’s guess is pretty close to the money.</p>

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<p>love you blue bayou!</p>

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<p>aw shucks, guys… :)</p>

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<p>

Just a single data point: DS took a single upper-division biology class (more on the evolution side?) that is usually not favored by the “very practical” premed crowd just because he heard the professor is THE expert in that narrow special field, and he was asked by interviewers at two med schools why he chose to take that kind of “outlier” upper-division science class. Because he was a cellular/molecular biology major who took tons of premed-centric biology classes, a single out-of-the-norm class would likely not hurt him. But it seems that adcoms do take a note of what science classes the students take. (Actually, he enjoyed that class more than any other science classes in that semester and put in more efforts in that class than in other “premed type” classes in that semester.)</p>

<p>DS took the “other side” of biology class (required for graduation from his major) relatively late in his college career by not planning well, after he had completed all other typical classes taken by premeds. He said that kind of biology class is actually more interesting than molecular biology just because there are still no definite answers to many questions in that field, unlike most of the UG-level molecular biology where you just pick up accumulated knowledge. I do not understand his view point.</p>

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<p>And the best part was that he had an awesome reason (and therefore response to the question).</p>

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<p>And as my D and I are fond of saying in the app process…it had the added benefit of being the truth!</p>

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<p>@ptontiger16,

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<p>Exactly! I took the the AP classes I did because I wanted to learn, and to even consider retaking these classes would be unthinkable. The AP credit has allowed me to pursue a 4 year plan that includes advanced(some graduate) studies in my major and other areas of interest, all without overloading any regular semesters or taking any summer classes. I attend college to learn as much as I can in these 4 years, not to play silly games. </p>

<p>I hope I never reach the level of cynicism displayed here in this thread. (no matter how old and grumpy I get :)</p>

<p>@Kdog044,

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<p>:confused: Easy choice for me. Since I’m in college, I’d choose learning.</p>

<p>I think the Yale School of Medicine says it very well on their website:

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<p>lol. Plumazul, did ya miss the part about the OP deciding between a PharmD and a Chem major? There will be plenty of advanced courses in this student’s future. Let’s try to stay on point. </p>

<p>Take Gen Chem OP. The idea that it is a re-take of a high school course is just plain silly. Many schools and departments within schools recommend your forfeit AP credit in your major area as they want their biologists trained their way, their chemists trained their way.</p>

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<p>Plum:</p>

<p>I think we would all agree that taking the most advanced courses possible and earning A’s is the way to go. Taking all honors courses and earning A’s is better than the taking non-honors courses with the same grades. Heck, while were at it, becoming Val is better than Sal.</p>

<p>But, the simple fact is that the average Frosh premed at most colleges (and I assume your school) will not earn A’s. The average premed at most colleges will not earn B’s. The average premed will earn C’s in Frosh Chem. That is a fact at most public Unis, (and particularly true at the UCs, because the Gen Chem course is chock full of students who aced AP Chem). (For the poster upthread at P’ton, the average is likely a low B.)</p>

<p>Thus, when one gives out advice, one can only assume that the applicant is somewhat average. While you personally might be THE science guy in College Park, you should not assume that everyone is as smart as you.</p>

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<p>Aaaarggh.</p>

<p>Going OT: Even strong science student’s education can benefit from taking a college level gen chem or freshman bio course if allowed. I know many students whose AP background with a successful test score simply wasn’t a reasonable substitute for a college taught class with a college lab. An exception to this very generalized advice would be if the student was qualified to teach the course. :wink: </p>

<p>This thread is about the OP who came in seeking specific advice about an impending decision of some import. I hate to see it get derailed. If folks want to debate generalized questions, I respectfully suggest they start a new thread about that. I might even join in. ;)</p>

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<p>@plumazul, the policy of each college varies. Here’s one from UMBC:</p>

<p>Students frequently ask if they can use AP credit in lieu of taking the prerequisite courses for a grade and credit at UMBC. Pre-medical students should not rely on AP credits to fulfill medical school prerequisites. Not all medical schools accept AP credit, particularly for the science prerequisite courses, even if UMBC accepts AP course credits for those same courses. Each medical school has the final say if a student meets its admission requirements and every medical school has different policies regarding AP credit. In order to prepare students to meet the requirements of as many institutions as possible, it is advisable that UMBC students complete the science prerequisite courses at UMBC for a grade and credit and not rely on AP credits to fulfill prerequisite coursework. This is particularly true for the chemistry and physics sequences. First-year students with AP credit in chemistry and physics are urged to begin science coursework at UMBC at the introductory level (with CHEM 101 and PHYS 11 1 or 121).;)</p>

<p>To the OP, my advice is if you feel strongly about your knowledge in Gen Chem then look for advanced courses to take. However, if you have any doubts (many AP courses cover 1/2 of a normal college course) then take Gen Chem. I would advise against taking it and Orgo at the same time. I would wait on Orgo until sophomore year if I were you assuming you still plan on the pre-med route.</p>

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<p>Not all gen chem or bio 101 classes are created equal. This depends on the school, or even the professor who teaches the class. Also, at some school, the majority of their incoming students, esp., the premeds, may have taken APs. It offers some “advanced” version of intro chem or bio for these students. (e.g., at DS’s school, for these students, they take 118a instead of 114 for chem, freshmen orgo, or advance gen bio.)</p>

<p>Some students actually complain that for these advanced versions, no matter whether they are chem or physics or orgo, they are not good ones to take if the students plan to take MCAT because of their emphasis on depth rather than breadth. ( e.g., applying quantum chemistry techniques to learn/explore organic chemistry principles in the freshmen level orgo for “deep understanding”.)</p>

<p>The premed advising office at many schools give advices similar to what UMBC’s gives. This is because only the “good” premed advisers are fully aware of the potential drawback for MANY, but not all, premed students who skip the genuine (not the "substandard AP ones in the view of SOME but not all med schools) college level science classes and apply to some, but not all, med schools.</p>

<p>The departmental advisers, especially the ones who have motives to recruit top students to the PhD or at least MD/PhD track (instead of "going to the “trade school” and wasting their talents in the eyes of some of these professors), very often have a different opinion.</p>

<p>It is a fact that many premeds only want to get VERY good grades in science prereqs and be done with the science requirements and move onto other things which are more important or relevant to them. Some political science or English majors could even manage to get better grades in the introductory science classes than science majors at top colleges. Some research med schools may not like this kind of student, but many med schools do. I even suspect that the learning of sciences mostly ends at MS2 and after that, a different skill set is more in demand than what you have learned in science classes or labs in college.</p>

<p>BDM once said the public speaking skill is likely one of the most important skills after the preclinical years. (So join the club to lead, take more liberal-art-ish classes where you are encouraged to express yourself often and convince others including the professor in charge.) Some may think the skill like this can not be learned in the class room, or something that should have been learned well before college. But it is likely true that those activist-types or political science majors or pre-laws tend to be more “outspoken” than most science major premeds. (DS once said that there appear to be more 'alpha males" there. After all, some of them could be our President one day – especially if their family is already well connected at the top rank of the society. Many premeds, after having been oppressed and survived in the orgo classes, tend to become anything but that type of student.)</p>

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<p>

<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/facult...ng/postdegree/[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/facult...ng/postdegree/&lt;/a&gt;
I’d like a little clarification about Pton’s med school acceptance rate, because the numbers in the link that Ptontiger posted doesn’t make sense. Can someone please explain?

How could they say there was a 92.1% acceptance rate when there were 410 applicants, not 117?</p>

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<p>The 117 is probably the number of appliCANTS who are accepted while the 410 is appliCATIONS. In other words, each kid submitted ~4 applications to top 10 schools (that’s probably not what actually happened but that is a possible scenario). The 92.1% is the number of applicants winding up at ANY medical school, so the numbers are not in any conflict.</p>

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<p>^^ The spring before I matriculated, the Honors College at my university (a student subset with stats similar to Princeton) reported a 98% acceptance rate (one student not accepted that cycle) for medical school applicants. These numbers seem consistent.</p>

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<p>@bluebayou,

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<p>Sometimes these discussions omit/forget the crucial given information. From the OPs first post:

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<p>A very small percentage of high school students take AP Chem, a subset of those take the AP exam. About 20% of those taking the exam score a 5 (this number can vary greatly, in some areas it can be low single digits). The OP is not average, and gen chem is not quantum chemistry. It’s a high school level course.</p>