<p>The ignorance...now that is dissappointing</p>
<p>There is no use having a debate with you, latoya, because you clearly are a close-minded person so wrapped up in your research that you can't even see how this all plays out in real world situations. </p>
<p>How do I sound, by the way?</p>
<p>I have been teaching students for almost 20 years, on two continents, black students, white students, red, yellow, purple, you name it.
Intelligence and motivation comes in all colors.
This is something you are born with and no AA can either give it to you or take it away. I see a lot of poor black/white/asian students (I work for a state university) who are extremely intelligent and hard working, and I know that they are going to be very successful in their grad schools and future lives because they have the brains and the drive. Do they need AA? No, they can succeed anywhere without artificial "leg-ups". Sure, Harvard would make your path to success easier, but if you are good enough you will be there anyway.</p>
<p>CityGal55, why do you keep beating around the bush, I want to hear from you how you'd feel about this:</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
UPenn has in the Entry Class:</p>
<p>1,206 (47%) White Student
524 (20%) Asian Students
229 (9%) International Students
193 (8%) Black Students
173 (7%) Hispanic Students
12 (<1%) American Indian Students</p>
<p>I would say figuratively, as a white student entering UPenn next fall, I would be ecstatic to enter with such brillance & talent that at the same time is this diverse,especially if I'm studying Political Science and International Relations, I will have a full spectrum of the world in each class to discuss, debate, and collaborate with. Now if you would rather advocate for my entry class to look more like this, at another excellent communications school:</p>
<p>1,976 (77%) White Student
173 (6%) Hispanic Students
128 (5%) Asian Students
51 (2%) International Students
12 (1%) Black Students
12 (1%) American Indian Students</p>
<p>That was Emerson, an AA free school. I've added 750 white students to the freshmen class and you're one of those ADDITIONAL 750 students, how do you feel? Now if I put Emerson's communication program in UPenn's campus and that was your homogenous student body, would you go? You probably would have been accepted to this class Would your perspective of UPenn change at all?
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>I said put Emerson's communication program at UPenn. </p>
<p>what would you think of a Upenn with that demographic breakdown?</p>
<p>And this is not touching on whether you support AA, this is about which school you want to attend and why? </p>
<h2>You commented before that you thought Fordham was too homogenous, what about this?</h2>
<p>And also, the most advertised and largest university in the state, PennState, also has a much larger applicant pool. Over 10,000 more applicants than UPenn. So as you said, is should be self-selectingly diverse by the invisible hand. No, PennState is 85% white. The difference...take a guess!</p>
<p>Even though I think the scenario you're presenting is absurd, I'll answer it so you'll stop bugging me.</p>
<p>If the com program at Emerson was at UPenn, and I was accepted, I would have been elated! Sign me up ASAP!</p>
<p>The reason I thought (I don't think this anymore!) Fordham was too homogenous had nothing to do with race. It has to do with the fact that I've just graduated from a Catholic high school where almost everyone was Catholic. The school, racially, was very diverse. I was just sick of the Jesuit thing and the type of kids who seem to go to schools like that. I've since learned how different college is. The end.</p>
<p>And fizik, one problem is that how are you going to translate to paper that those black students are just as smart and potent?</p>
<p>Statistically, it's is expected to be lop-sided, even with the same I.Q., the average black student will test lower, will not have A.P. courses, will have only one parent, no oustide-of-school studying (library, tutors, academic support programs), and a supressed GPA. So yes, statisitcally, blacks would look nowhere as good as the ones standing next to them, but why is this only a numbers game. The fact that some SATs and transcripts are a notch off (100 SAT points less and A-'s instead of As really means they're that dumber or incapable?!!)</p>
<p>Self-intiated community service projects, glowing reccomendations that says Person A will succeed, a college essay that was deemed good enough to be published (and was, twice), smart enough that the State Office seeks out their support on certain global issues, tri-sport athlete, and an outspoken leader in the community (6 senior year leadership positions)....</p>
<p>....all with a 1330 SAT and a 3.7 GPA.</p>
<p>So should Person A have gotten into Emory, Amherst, and UPenn? Why or why not? For the simple fact of numbers?</p>
<p>cre8tive,</p>
<p>I believe that those who criticize AA(including myself), are completely supportive of the advantage it gives to poor minorities who like you said have only one parent, or have a lack of resources and nonetheless pull off good academics and extracurriculars. </p>
<p>However, I think that what people don't like is when a rich URM from a prep school like Exeter gets an advantage over some white student who lives on a farm in SD and goes to public school and may only have one parent, lack of resources, etc.</p>
<p>If you walk into any inner-city high school, you will find that alongside URMs there are also whites and asians who live in the same environment.</p>
<p>I am critical of AA aswell but my view is. That if it is the only universal plan that people in higher places will implement, I will not argue for it removal if there is no new plan in place.</p>
<p>Honestly, flawed as it may be, it is the sole applicable solution that America (perticularly the Supremacists WhoShallNotBeNamed) have for the problem. </p>
<p>That the historic socioeconomic gap of Black America is a deep, giant wound that African-Americans have never recovered from. But instead of investing more money into our schools and cities, They, WhoShallNotBeNamed, have chosen to put a band-aid over a growing wound, a deep cut, a problem that's been growing for 400 years.</p>
<p>Money, development, foundation relations, and yielding, instead of cutting more, money to the Department of Education (both at Federal and State levels) would be obvious. First ask Mr. Bush why the Department of Education is still the smallest cabinet-level department, 1/50 the size of Department of Veteran Affairs (since veterans benefits for veterans, their families, and survivors is 50 times more important than the country's educaton)!!!</p>
<p>And no, Affirmative Action will never heal the socioeconomic disadvantage of Blacks...but really, what is your alternative solution? I say, if you advocate to remove the band-aid, the sole support in place for giving Blacks anything near equal oppurtunity in education... then I want to see an alternative solution implemented, PRONTO!</p>
<p>If not, leave the damn band-aid, it may not do its healing, but it does some good for our community.</p>
<hr>
<p>CityGal, how is it absurd, b/c many elite schools & top publics have that breakdown:</p>
<p>Notre Dame, William & Mary, Colgate, Wake Forest, UNC-Chapel Hill, Villanova, RPI, Lehigh, Bucknell, Ithaca College, UW-Madison, Clemson, Marquette, Furman, Skidmore, Elon, BYU, Gonzaga, Baylor, Texas A&M...</p>
<p>Your chances would be higher at those schools that don't put you at a disadvantage, why not go there are even Dartmouth?</p>
<p>to those who say that they don't like AA because of the rich black/hispanic/native americans which go to schools like andover,exeter etc. The truth is that you can count the number of URMS which go to exeter and andover with the fingers on you're hand.</p>
<p>Cre8ive1,
that was my whole point: they do not underperform, they overperform everyone in their classes including whites (which is statistically impossible, based on your statement). They have top scores and GPAs. And you know why? Because it would never occur to me to mark up or down their tests based on the color of their skins.
AA does not solve the problem, but deepens it. The efforts, no matter how well-intentioned, are misapplied.
And you are wrong saying that it is the only solution there is. What about bridge programs that exist at many many universities the purpose of which is to bring minority students to college classes by starting to work with them early in middle/high school? Not to mention that I work in Atlanta suburbs and in my university it is white students who are the minority (about 49%). People that are crying out AA are the ones that live in the past.</p>
<p>also, does anyone know any actual stats on a URM that goes to Exeter or Andover? people keep bringing up the stats of these "Rich URMs". Can soemone come up with some sort of percentage of the Hispanic or Black population that shows what percent is over, lets say, 50k? Instead of people using these same arguments and not getting anywhere, lets get some actual data.</p>
<p>and heres some data of my own. given, this is a graph from 11 years ago, but the trends are still sort of intriguing. </p>
<p>note that the average black SAT score for 70k plus is lower than the white SAT score for 0-10k.</p>
<p>and another one:</p>
<p>have fun.</p>
<p>Smart and motivated parents (which is reflected in family educational level and income) tend to produce smart and motivated children.</p>
<p>but then why is there such a discrepancy between the races on SAT testing in both the parents education graph and the socioeconomic graph?</p>
<p>It means that asians and whites need to be much smarter/better educated compared to minorities to reach the same level of education and income. :) I am not joking, that is what the graphs suggest.</p>
<p>i think that was sort of funny but i just didnt get the humor... and if what i thought you were saying was consistent with what the intent appeared to be, you could also say that the reason for the crime rate in inner city Washington DC is because of the extra police there, or the high rate of sickness in a remote provence of Russia is because there are extra doctors there....</p>
<p>and AA isnt helping the majority, remember, AA is meant to even the playing field...</p>
<p>"also, does anyone know any actual stats on a URM that goes to Exeter or Andover? people keep bringing up the stats of these "Rich URMs". Can soemone come up with some sort of percentage of the Hispanic or Black population that shows what percent is over, lets say, 50k? Instead of people using these same arguments and not getting anywhere, lets get some actual data."</p>
<p>Now here’s something I’d like to see. I am so very tired of all the "I knew a rich minority" stories. I want some factual evidence, not anecdotal evidence.</p>
<p>Also, for those of you who have no idea about what your writing, I suggest you read the things Latoya has been posting!</p>
<p>I said I was not really joking, that is what follows directly from the graphs: If you assume that the SAT score represents the average level of intellect/education of a family, a white family with an intellect of 850 will make somewhere between 10 and 20 K a year, while comparable black family will make 70 K plus. You just need to follow trend not in vertical but in horizontal direction. Asians have it in the worst: they have to be the smartest to reach the same level of income.</p>
<p>"I am not a minority so you would be right saying I don't know "what it feels like." But, coming from a very liberal city, I have to say that to hear African Americans say society is not doing enough to accomodate them makes me sick."</p>
<p>Coming from a very liberal town I hear whites saying that blacks don't accomodate them enough, that makes me sick.</p>
<p>AA does not even the playing field. It makes whites and asians go to insane degree of test preparation/EC/etc in order to have a chance at admission in highly coveted universities. Arguably it is an AA policy that widens/creates the gap in SAT scores.</p>
<p>Whites and Asians are not going to those "insane degrees" to give them a better chance against URMs, they are doing it to give them a better chance againt themselves.</p>
<p>"Arguably it is an AA policy that widens/creates the gap in SAT scores."</p>
<p>-No, it is increased demand which drives higher admissions standards, and thus causes people to work harder, not Affirmative Action.</p>