Affirmative Action Ethics

<p>oh ok i see it. thats a funny way to look at it. but then in that reasoning the SAT is a measure of intellect and not what the kids are actually learning in school.</p>

<p>and the point is to even the playing field. look at the UCs. as of 2004, Berkeley had an Asian population of over 42.4%, where the asian population in the US is around 4.2%. whites take about 31.5%, with a US population % of 67.4%. blacks are severely underrepresented, with 3.8%, with the population percentage of the US being 13.8%. Hispanics are reasonably represented, 10.9% in berkeley with 14.0% in the USA. Native Americans stand at 0.6% in UCB, with 1.4% in the US.</p>

<p>the link for those interested, <a href="https://osr2.berkeley.edu/Public/STUDENT.DATA/PUBLICATIONS/FACT.SHEET/factsheet.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://osr2.berkeley.edu/Public/STUDENT.DATA/PUBLICATIONS/FACT.SHEET/factsheet.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>now doesnt this mean there is a problem with the representation of different ethnic groups? ironically, whites, who dont get AA, have the third worst ratio of UCB% to USA%, if the population is supposed to mirror the enrollment in a non-AA school. </p>

<p>the thing is, many of the other universities take the qualified candidates for berkeley into their own arms, so the data is slightly unreliable, but the point is still there. what would happen with an all-AA system?</p>

<p>Pro AA arguments are enfuriating.

[quote]
peter parker</p>

<ol>
<li>SAT scores are correlated to income, income is correlated with race, therefore SAT scores are correlated with race. simple logic that you seemed to have missed</li>
<li>the SAT has been shown numerous times to be very coachable. Being "smart" or "dumb" does not matter for the SAT, what matters is how many of the collegeboard's tricks you know.</li>
<li>Race may not be the only indicator of diversity, but it sure is the best one we have. you cant tell me that the white culture is not different from the black culture and the hispanic culture in America, because it is.</li>
<li>I guess you havent been reading this thread or any other thread pertaining to AA in which intelligent people have offered up several reasons for it.</li>
</ol>

<p>also, your SATs must be pretty high for this so called rich black kid to have a 300 point lower score than you and still get into good schools. And by your demonstrated intelligence plus your stated lack of test prep, i cant imagine your scores being that high.

[/quote]
</p>

<ol>
<li>A correlation in math is a relation existing between phenomena or things which tend to vary, be associated, or occur together in a way not expected on the basis of chance alone. </li>
</ol>

<p>Showing a correlation does not mean that the one thing directly affects or is directly associated with the second. In order to do this, you have to show a causal relationship. There is a joke that math professors use about how there is a very high correlation between teacher salaries and liquor sales. They use this joke to illustrate the point that there is a correlation but no causal relationship.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>No argument that the SAT doesn't measure intelligence (and please let's not drag another debate into this), but I fail to see how this supports your argument at all.</p></li>
<li><p>White culture? Does such a thing exist? Gee, I'm white, and I've never heard of it. Oh is it some B.S. like going to country clubs, spitting on minorities, and pretending to be polite? If so, then I think you have the racial problems buddy. Btw, race is not the best indicator of diversity. I'd rather have a class filled with different interests, experiences, and personalities over such trivialities such as skin pigment.</p></li>
<li><p>Several reasons for AA? Where? Please show them to me. I haven't heard ONE REMOTELY good one yet.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>As for your final remarks, I got a 36 on my ACT and got into my top choice college. No, I'm not an embittered rejectee but I hate people who simply think this is the reason for AA bashing. No, logic is the reason for AA bashing. I'm not anti-AA because I think minorities stole my spot. The minorities that get in only 'replace' those on the very brink of admittance, and even that number is relatively low.</p>

<p>So no, AA has not directly screwed me, but I am against it the same way I'm against a grown man kicking a baby hard in the face. It's sickening and it makes me d.amn mad. AA does give minorites a significant advantage. </p>

<p>Now that I've destroyed your reasons, it's time to demonstrate the idiocy of other laughable reasons cited for AA in this thread:</p>

<p>idiotic reason #1: we want colleges to mirror the pop of the US
response: why? that's an arbitrary desire. why don't we have equal proportions of ppl from each state? or from each county? or each town? Better yet, why don't we have proportionally handicapped people? or fat people? or red haired people? or twins? Yes, ever 1/300 college students must be an identical twin. I think I spent too much time debunking this one...</p>

<p>idiotic reason #2: reparations for past race crimes <em>cough</em> slavery
response: I guess I should punch a German-American in the face for WW2, huh? I'm being blamed for crimes people committed before I was born? THATS ABSURD. Not to mention, IT WASNT EVEN MY ANCESTORS. My mom's granparents where Irish immigrants, and my dad's italian immigrants. But NO! BRAND ME WITH THE KKK!!! But anyway, I'M SORRY. For your ancestors' (not yours) potential pain. (assuming your ancestors were even slaves). That's why you should get into Harvard without a high GPA or SATs.</p>

<p>idiotic reason #3: there exists an "economic scar" on minorities
response: First of all, someone even admitted that AA will never heal this economic scar. But more importantly, it's a simple principle that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It doesn't matter your race. If you have rich parents, they'll die, then pass it on to you (and their estates and companies). Otherwise, you have the same opportunites as joe blow. In fact, minorities in some cases have better chances because companies want to have goo PR "race relations" and don't want to be labeled racists! YET IF YOUR STILL NOT CONVINCED... the AA debate isn't about minorities getting into college, it's about minorities getting into SELECTIVE colleges. Yet HORDES of studies show that the main disparage in income comes from whether or not you attended A COLLEGE not WHICH COLLEGE. Surprising at it may sound, there's not a significant variance between the income of a HARVARD grad, and the income of somone from STATE U. The entire debate is about minorities with lesser stats outflanking white and asians at the more selective universities, when the selectivity of a university has nothing to do with future income at all, which defeats the entire economic argument altogether!!</p>

<p>idiotic reason #4: "life's not fair" or "we can't change it anyway"
These are slogans of tyrannical opressors and the subjucated, respectively. PM me if you want a minimum of 50 historical examples where these ideologies have been expressed.</p>

<p>*Note, I have spared many idiotic reasons I have heard before for brevity, and have mainly just adressed the comments and reasons made on this thread, which generally get dumber as you read. But yet, the quest for the ONE GOOD REASON FOR AA continues!</p>

<p>well said, peter_parker.</p>

<p>"idiotic reason #2: reparations for past race crimes <em>cough</em> slavery"</p>

<p>While I too think this is a silly reason. I think you miss the point. Nobody wants to make up for slavery – the price for slavery was paid – in blood, during the Civil War. Here you are assuming not only that AA is based on race, but only one race – Black, which is narrow-minded to say the least. However, again, the point of AA is to allow those in society who are less represented in different aspects of society to gain access to those aspects. Since AA is not based only on race, pretty much everything you say is absurd; a woman applicant to engineering school also gets help from the program. A male applicant to a school trying to increase its male population gets help from the program, a person from Mississippi gets help going to a school on the coast, etc – I could go on forever. </p>

<p>The general sociological reasoning behind the program is a simple one: those inside the power circle will not willingly give up their power to help those outside it. Thus, the majority shall remain the majority unless outside or government forces step in. Such programs are a way to insure better integration of all persons into society. AA is just one example of this in American society.</p>

<p>I’m not going to try to make you agree with the program as such an effort is futile. The least you could do, however, is understand it before you begin to rebuke it.</p>

<p>amen peter parker.....no need to elaborate</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Cre8ive1,
that was my whole point: they do not underperform, they overperform everyone in their classes including whites (which is statistically impossible, based on your statement). They have top scores and GPAs. And you know why? Because it would never occur to me to mark up or down their tests based on the color of their skins. AA does not solve the problem, but deepens it. The efforts, no matter how well-intentioned, are misapplied.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Can you add some nouns and subjects in that statement so I know who you are referring to. I still do not know how "they" is or what in my previous posts you are connecting to.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
And you are wrong saying that it is the only solution there is. What about bridge programs that exist at many many universities the purpose of which is to bring minority students to college classes by starting to work with them early in middle/high school? Not to mention that I work in Atlanta suburbs and in my university it is white students who are the minority (about 49%). People that are crying out AA are the ones that live in the past.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Bridge-programs? Do you plan on establishing that in every school district, or lets just start out with the D.C. School District, Jackson, MS School District. I have a Oakland School District I left where I will first ask, before you establish any programs...</p>

<p>*Can I get some desks? Eight students did not have desks in my history class?</p>

<p>*Can we get some food? The average kid at McClymons ate a bag of chips for breakfast.</p>

<p>*Can we get a new facility? Not a new facility in 30 damn years!!! One high school built in '74 has over 5,000 students, it was built for a capacity of 1,800.</p>

<p>*Can we get reading proficiency? Why does the average student (which is black) in this district read at a 7th grade level when enter high school?
(Board of Education actually suggestedthat 12th grade black boys read at the level of 9th grade white boys)</p>

<p>*Can we stop 50,000 California SENIORS students from dropping out? Why make an State Exit Exam that test students on levels that the STATE'S own school systems doesn't educate them to? B/C of failing this test, 50,000 students are graduating w/o a diploma. I say, educate them first!</p>

<p>----------------------AND THEN, IF YOU SO PLEASE...---------------------</p>

<p>Add a bridge program to all 14 of our district middle schools. Really, once you've done that... note that you've patched up (not fixed) only one of 18 school systems in CA where students perform at "Below Basic Level" (Botton 20-29% of School Districts in Country. East LA has it worse, bottom 10%.</p>

<p>Bottom line, no one will do this. It was not until 1996 when 1/3 of our teachers walk-off on strike and then Ebonics was passed into the curriculum that same winter that the Federal level deemed Oakland schools system beyond unacceptable to a level where diplomas should not be awarded. It was not until Department of Education pressured the State Legistlature to pass an Emergency $100 million loan in 2003 that our school final recieved sufficient funding for the first time since the mid 80's!</p>

<p>Education is not the priority of this country anymore, no one will fund the great reforms ideas that you guys have. In terms of governmental staffing, veteran benefit programs are 48 times more important than our Nation's Education. In terms of funding, the Department of Transportation recieves over three (3) times the funding as the Department of Education...WHY?!!</p>

<p>This is why America, in terms of education, went from #1 Worldwide in 1986 to note even top 20 wordwide in 2004. Pathetic...who voted for Bush btw?</p>

<p>In the amicus brief submitted by **Harvard University, Brown University, the University of Chicago, Dartmouth College, Duke University, the University of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, and Yale University **in support of the University of Michigan, and the reasons that they feel AA is importand.</p>

<p>Let's call it what it is, at the crux of these AA rants is some getting admitted into a handful of schools because no one is up in arms about how to Podunk U. fulfills it institutional mission or how it selects a class.</p>

<p>They state:</p>

<p>We are not so far removed from the days when segregation by race in education, and race discrimination in all sorts of vital opportunities relevant to educational performance, were for many a matter of law.</p>

<p>The major points for affirmative action in their breifs are as follows:</p>

<p>These schools collectively stated</p>

<p>Academically selective universities have a compelling interest in ensuring that their student bodies incorporate the experiences and talents of the wide spectrum of racial and ethnic groups that make up our society. Amici should be free to compose a class that brings together many different kinds of students; that includes robust representation of students from different races and ethnicities; and that prepares graduates to work successfully in a diverse nation. Indeed, highly selective universities have long defined as one of their central missions the training of the nation’s business, government, academic, and professional leaders. By creating a broadly diverse class, amici’s admissions policies help to assure that their graduates are well prepared to succeed in an increasingly complex and multi-racial society.</p>

<p>The colleges presented the following arguments
·
I- Consideration Of Race And Ethnicity In An Individualized Admissions Process Serves Compelling Interests.</p>

<p>A. There Is a Broad Consensus On The Important Educational Benefits of Diversity.</p>

<p>***Diversity helps students confront perspectives other than their own and thus to think more rigorously and imaginatively; it helps students learn to relate better to people from different backgrounds; it helps students become better citizens. </p>

<p>The educational benefits of student diversity include the discovery that there is a broad range of viewpoint and experience within any given minority community – as well as learning that certain imagined differences at times turn out to be only skin deep. </p>

<p>It is surely fitting for universities to undertake to prepare their students to live and work in a global economy within a multiracial world. The challenges of contemporary life demand that students acquire not just traditional forms of knowledge regarding science and the arts, but also techniques of bridging differences in perspective and in personal experience.***</p>

<p>B. Consideration of Race and Ethnicity Grows Naturally Out Of The Needs Of The Professions and Of American Business.</p>

<p>***Every major profession in this country has sought greater diversity within its ranks. Businesses have demanded more minority managers and executives, as well as non-minorities who can work well with colleagues from diverse backgrounds.</p>

<p>Leading corporations, business groups, professional organizations, and executives have repeatedly called for consideration of race and ethnicity in university admissions.</p>

<p>In adopting their admissions policies, universities are responding to “the clearly articulated needs of business and the professions for a healthier mix of well-educated leaders and practitioners from varied racial and ethnic backgrounds.***</p>

<p>The Interest In Racial Diversity Cannot Be Served By Race-Neutral Reliance On Factors, Such As Economic Disadvantage, That Are Already Carefully Considered.</p>

<p>The United States urges (as one solution) that universities look to such factors as special economic hardship instead of race. See U.S. Grutter Br. 24-25. But the decisive fact is that all of the suggested race-neutral factors, and many more besides, already enter into admissions decisions. </p>

<p>Consideration of those factors alone does not achieve the distinctly racial diversity that amici seek in their student bodies. To accomplish that goal, admissions committees must give favorable consideration to minority race in addition to those other factors, not instead of them.</p>

<p>By deliberately tilting individual admissions toward “hardship” students in the hope of thereby selecting a large enough increment of minority students to make up for the losses that would result from race-blind admissions – would be disingenuous at best. Such an approach would in truth be a race based policy and not a race-neutral alternative at all. Indeed, such programs, if adopted to assure increased minority enrollment, would be based on race in a causal sense and would thus raise obvious constitutional questions of their own.</p>

<p>A race-neutral preference for economically disadvantaged students, for example, would admit many more whites than non-whites, because of sheer demographic realities. And, of course, the university interest in admitting minority students goes well beyond just admitting minority students from disadvantaged backgrounds.</p>

<p>Race-Conscious Admissions Programs Are Not Open- Ended Commitments.</p>

<p>The decision of a university as to which minority groups deserve favorable consideration in an individualized admissions process designed to foster such diverse representation, and the weight of such consideration, are necessarily and appropriately decisions to be made as a matter of educational judgment, taking into account both the university’s sense of its mission and its best estimate of the leadership needs it will address – not as a matter of conflicting “rights.”</p>

<p><a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...us_harvard.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...us_harvard.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Keep in mind that we live in a time of choice. After all has been said and done, if you don't like the institutional mission of a particular college or how they go about fulfilling that mission (especially at a private university), the solution is simple- don't apply to that school. However, I am willing to be dollars to donuts, that there is still going to be record numbers of applicants tossing their hats into the ring and very few if admitted will be turning them down becasue they find the methods that these schools use to craft a class so egregious that they are not going to attend.</p>

<p>Citygal... I provided those statistics to educate EVERYONE on both sides of the debate. I think it helps elevate the discussion past personal experiences that don't necessarily correlate with what is going on everywhere else.</p>

<p>And second.. you know nothing about me. I am not closeminded. I am definately taking in all of the cons that anti-affirmative action people are bringing up. If you ever bothered to read any of my statements... I stated that people should read the information from those websites for better understanding not to simply debate eachother.....again...work on your analytical skills</p>

<p>Oh yah... I know the statistics... but I also know this dilemna firsthand. I grew up in Brooklyn, tested out of horrible schools to get the education I deserved. I took the bus and the train across the city...at a young age...just to education. And no.. I'm not complaining...because it builds characeter. I also see this everyday at work, because I recruit college students in both affluent prep schools, and underfunded public schools. I'm going to grad school to work educational policy so that some day affirmative action won't be necessary; everyone will get access to an equal educations. </p>

<p>I've never made any assumptions about you, so don't make any about me.</p>

<p>And how do you sound? Why don't we let people in the forum answer that, because I really shouldn't have to tell you.</p>

<p>oops... please excuse the errors...disscussion thread=lack of proofreading</p>

<p>Minus the citygirl comments....I would like to say that I really like the overall healthy discussion. There is a lot we can learn from one another.</p>

<p>lataoya, you ARE complaining. Okay it builds character, but your saying that doesn't erase the fact that you are complaining a ridiculous amount. Believe it or not, white people have hardships too. You weren't the only one who had to prove their intelligence or take a bus/train to school. I HAD TO TAKE THE BUS AND TRAIN TO SCHOOL!!! Does that make it okay for me to complain? No, because I look at it as...the bus and train are the ways I got to school. </p>

<p>You claim you want to set the stage for a time when AA isn't needed. As long as its used, it will never go away, and the gaps between the rich/poor and the blacks/whites/Hispanics etc will not disappear. Minorities are screwed over by this system that is supposedly helping them because they are allowed to get through middle school without some of them knowing how to read, then are passed on to high school where they coast through doing nothing. And the smartest of that bunch who managed to escape with half and education are admitted to college based on their skin color. </p>

<p>AA is a problem that starts at birth for some minorities. I read an article somewhere discussing how professors subconciously grade tests, hw, and projects easier if the student is a minority. So they get through all of college thinking they are competing with everyone on a fair level when they really are not. I was taking to one of my coworkers, and he said that while he was in law school, the minorities admitted suddenly saw a dramatic drop in their performance because the tests are graded without names. A good amout flunked out, proving that in the end, AA is seriously hurting these kids. Maybe if they had been competing fairly from the beginning and had not been admitted to undergrad based on their skin color, we would have more minority doctors, lawyers, and businesspeople, who then would have educated children who could perform as well their white counterparts on the SAT.</p>

<p>Setting the stage for no AA, for me, is fixing the school system so that ALL students are prepared for college. If they were prepared in the first place...that wouldn't happen. We can't even graduate black men from high school let alone get them to become doctors.</p>

<p>And I never said anything about whites never being subject to those same hardships (read some of my past posts on socioeconomic disparities)... and good for you that you had to bust your ass like I did to get an education your deserved... that means.. that you and I.... really understand the value of education -and don't take if for granted-and where it can take us. (I guess we at least have something in common). I used that as an example to show that I know the real world application. Due to housing covenants, and other past problems, a disproportinate of minorities fall into this category.</p>

<p>We both essentially want the same outcome, we just disagree on how to get there. And honestly, it will take different ideas from different people to come up with a solution-since it is a complex issues and Supreme Court and legislators deals with it bit by bit rather than address the entire issue.</p>

<p>"AA is a problem that starts at birth for some minorities. I read an article somewhere discussing how professors subconciously grade tests, hw, and projects easier if the student is a minority."</p>

<p>HA! I’d like some of this easy grading.... This is by far the most ridiculous thing you have said. Now you can come on here and tell me that I don’t deserve to be in college in the first place, but I refuse to sit here and let you insinuate that any of the grades I earn are from a professor’s subconscious minority-friendly grading system.</p>

<p>Citygal5, before you remove AA, why don't you solve these problems first?
The only really benefactor of ending AA right now are people like you, which graduate from schools that perform at levels where government not only certified taht your students have learn the basics (700 API) but also your students are deemed to be proficient in what they learn (800 API) where as my school district average (560 API) Below basic level, and subtract Skyline and the Academy over in Piedmont (white school), you have a (480 API).</p>

<p>70% of the middle schools in this district failed to be able to teach English at basic level. 9 out 57 had students at basic level, and on lly 7 out of 57 had the average students proficient in English.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Believe it or not, white people have hardships too. You weren't the only one who had to prove their intelligence or take a bus/train to school. I HAD TO TAKE THE BUS AND TRAIN TO SCHOOL!!! Does that make it okay for me to complain? No, because I look at it as...the bus and train are the ways I got to school.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>1st) Girl, there are so many reports released last year alone that show, even when whites are disadvantage, blacks (statistically, no generalization) have it twice as bad.</p>

<p>20% of Blacks have two parents <--------> 60% of Whites have to parents
1 in 11 Blacks will graduate from college <---------> 1 in 5 Whites will graduate from college
Avg 12th grade black boy <------- reads at the level of-------> a 9th grade white boy
Blacks are 8 times more likely to drop out of high school than whites...
...which leads to the fact that 1 in 5 of those droppout will be in jail or incarcerated by age 18!</p>

<p>Those are just minor stats compared to all decficiencies inside of black-dominate school districts.</p>

<p>2nd) Yes. This shouldn't be a battle of who has it the worst (even though that is obvious in plain bold printed number). So long as we can agree that there are big changes that needto be made across the board in Primary and Secondary Education, so may I ask, what good are you doing by picking the bone on a mild issue in Higher Education?</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]

You claim you want to set the stage for a time when AA isn't needed. As long as its used, it will never go away, and the gaps between the rich/poor and the blacks/whites/Hispanics etc will not disappear. Minorities are screwed over by this system that is supposedly helping them because they are allowed to get through middle school without some of them knowing how to read, then are passed on to high school where they coast through doing nothing. And the smartest of that bunch who managed to escape with half and education are admitted to college based on their skin color.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Setting the new stage means handling every problem that you listed which need to be fleshed out, put in bold, stated much more bluntly than you did there, but atleat you recognize those problems. The errors and flaws are mainly between 6th and 10th grade. And the system that blacks & hispanics are screwed over by is the Public School System, get that right. If universities try to implement an outercore system like AA to assist the 1 in 11 blacks that excelled in this system set for failure...flawed as it may be, you shouldn't be critiquing and scorning them. ** No criticize our government that puts Education at a backseat to every other Department in the Cabinet (even Veteran Affairs, damnit!; Sorry but you don't understand how much Bush ***ed me off when I saw that budget!!!!)* If and when we handle the real issue first, colleges and businesses would never have to think of ways to subsidize/make-up for academic-->which translate to economic deficiencies, flawed as any of them may be.</p>

<p>No, when the problems in K-12 are fixed, that is the time to remove AA. Removing AA right now helps who? Not the 10% of the black communitry that it did benefit...no I here no complaints from them. Better to have 10% of our community well-educated so that they can do something about these issues, b/c the people that need to/are going to help the black community the most are blacks. In California school districts, NBAs stars like Kevin Johnson, by opening up 6 schools and buying out school districts, have done more reform than Gray Davis did himself. </p>

<p>Really the main benefactor, and the only real benefactor I see from removing AA at this point are people like yuo, non-minorities that were rejected when the odds, resources, and all the cards were on your side in the first place.</p>

<p>Also, tell me what is so obviously and out-right naive about the statement (so much that it deserves its own seperate post for the world to laugh at):</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Maybe if they had been competing fairly from the beginning and had not been admitted to undergrad based on their skin color, we would have more minority doctors, lawyers, and businesspeople, who then would have educated children who could perform as well their white counterparts on the SAT.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Fair from the beginning has so so so little to do with higher education.</p>

<p>It should not be up to pre-concieved doctors and lawyers to raise decently educated children.</p>

<p>80% of blacks will not have that mother+father to raise them to begin w/, nevermind the fact that those parents are likely to not be educated enough to educate their children.</p>

<p>And you soley blame parental upbringing when black children are attending schools that are unable to educate blacks to read & write to the basic level, nevermind being proficient?!!</p>

<p>So basically, you are indirectly blaming University of Pennsylvania Office of Minority Affairs for black children not being educated to perform as well their white counterparts on the SAT?!! </p>

<p>Here, have a biscuit for making definitely the most most naive and sheltered statement that outshines even ignorance. I feel sorry b/c that statement just hurts all those anti-AA posters who argued so well and articulately. If this were a protest and you were on my side, I'd definitely would have kicked you out after that one.</p>

<p>Cre8tive one, use your gray brains not white/black. You said it all yourself: the problem starts even earlier than school. How in the world AA can solve the one-parent situation, for example, or luck of proper equipment/teachers in schools? I teach physics in a university, and let me tell you I know first hand that most of my students cannot do simple algebra when they come to my class and have no reading comprehention, REGARDLESS of race! Most of them have SATs lower than my son had in the 6th grade! REGARDLESS of race! White kids, black kids, purple kids. What do I do? I teach them, spending hours and hours of extra time and so they can go on to the med and pharm schools. You want social equality? Instead of arguing about AA for hours go and teach these poor kids to read. And yes, read you own kids at night.</p>

<p>peter parker i showed numerical data as evidence, please if you are actually looking for a point, read the data and actually consider it, instead of continually writing "NOT ONE GOOD REASON".</p>

<p>heres a summary of the argument i supported before with demographic statistics: ok, lets take AA away. look at the demographic breakdown of UCB, known for being a top public university. the asian population percentage of berkeley is about 10 times the national percentage. compare this to MIT, where the 05-06 class is 26.5% asian, 5.7% black, 11.3% hispanic, and 1.5% native american. this leaves around 50% as white. though whites are still slightly underrepresented compared to the US demographic (67.4%, .74 ratio), blacks are still very underrepresented (13.8%, .41), and asians are still very overrepresented (4.2%, 6.31), the comparison of the demographic to the university is much closer than an AA free system.</p>

<p>having the demographic of the US be mirrored in schools would show something very important: the people applying to college are on about equal footing when they apply. yes there will be different parts of the bell curve applying to each school, but if the kids are receiving the same education opportunities (don't confuse this with socioeconomic status necessarily, you can be poor and live in a middle neighborhood), the demographic trend should be that of mirroring the entire US somewhat, not exactly, but close.</p>

<p>however, we know this isnt completely the case, and ill go out on a limb for the sake of argument. is it possible that the majority of asians just care more about education than their black counterparts? is there a cultural stress for certain groups on the importance of education? it seems people have been debating things like socioeconomic status and amount of education, but the data i found before still can lead to the conclusion that certain groups overperform on these tests where others underperform. before we can say AA is fair, we sort of have to see why its needed, right?</p>

<p>just food for thought, comment as you wish.</p>

<p>I just don't see why AA is based on skin color. It's totally absurd. It should definitely be socio-economic. I bet if you take all your statistics (Blacks graduate X% of the time, Whites graduate Y% of the time, etc) and translated it into how much their household makes (<40k graduates X%, >100k graduates Y%) then it would be much more skewed than the facts you have shown. Although I do believe it is important to have some racial diversity in schools, skin color is definitely not the only way to define diversity.</p>

<p>"I bet if you take all your statistics (Blacks graduate X% of the time, Whites graduate Y% of the time, etc) and translated it into how much their household makes (<40k graduates X%, >100k graduates Y%) then it would be much more skewed than the facts you have shown."</p>

<p>please just do that then instead of the bet :)</p>

<p>MTL07, you might be comforted to know that universities consider all aspects of diversity when builiding a class: socioeconomic, cultural, racial, ethnic, gender, geographic, major, etc, etc. </p>

<p>They are definately thinking of all the dynamics. For example, schools are more intrigued by a female interested in engineering than a male, just as they are more interested in a male interested in dance. Schools will pay a lot of attention to a student applying to a school on the east coast, when they are from the west coast or midwest- esp. if they are trying to get more students from those areas...etc etc... and the scenarios go on.</p>