Affirmative Action Ethics

Applying to College
281

<p>kk19131, Portugal was responsible for 4.5 million slaves during their four century stint in the Trans-Atlantic trade. We recieved more slaves from Portugal than Britain. If you would like a quick review, check this:
<a href="http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Peter_parker, that would be a function of the weakness (perticularly financial) weakness of the institution, the economic situation of the dropouts, and the fact that most ofthem aren't of 47% of our country deemed to have been educated with the skills needed for college.</p>

282

<p>Back to your statement about "injustices". AA was created because of constant injustices towards minorities and women. Saying that AA is injustice is completely undermining the reason why it was created. And on another note, stop putting minorities in context when referring to AA, all the blacks in power during the time were conservatives. Clarence Thomas voted against it, guess who voted for it, white people. Thurgood Marshall said it was unfair, put WHITES in the firing lane when discussing AA, not blacks.</p>

283

<p>Wait Clarence Thomas is black? Can we have an appeal vote b/c I say ne ;)</p>

<p>Thurgood Marshall wanted a reformation of public education as opposed to a crutch, but since that reformation never came about...</p>

284

<p>This whole discussion thread demonstrates that we are not there yet becasue when people automatically associate AA with blacks, and AA is not a 'Black thing" it's a people thing as AA benefits different people in different context. In the workplace the biggest benefactor of AA are white women and the new under represented minority are white men under the age of 40. At engineering schools AA benefits young women in the admissions process while at the LACs AA benefits young men. As far as URMs are concerned it depends on where you are applying. </p>

<p>Yes at many schools, Blacks, Hispanics and native americans are underrepresented, but at many schools Asains are underrepresented also . The problem is that when only talk about AA and a the handful of schools that many people are clammoring to be admitted to that we forget about the thousands of schools where schools are trying to recruit students of color (all colors).</p>

285

<p>"silly and flawed logic"
-yes, the arguments were intended to come across as silly and flawed; I was trying to imitate the idiocy of the 40/400 logic.</p>

<p>"I'm sorry, is that a bad thing? (that people are afriad of being racist)"</p>

<p>No! I'm simply saying that people don't regard blacks as slaves anymore! Isn't that obvious?</p>

<p>"AA was created because of constant injustices towards minorites and women"</p>

<p>-First of all, I'm talking about AA in college/ universities admissions, not other places, where the topic is too broad and undefined and there's little direct evidence of it because stats of people can't be directly compared, while at college admissions it can be. </p>

<p>You guys need to go back and read everything I've posted, because you keep using the same old arguments I've already discussed. I AGREE THAT THERE EXISTS A GREAT DEAL OF SIGNIFICANT INJUSTICES AGAINST MINORITIES, INCLUDING ECONOMIC INEQUALITY, HOUSING COMPACT DISCRIMINATION, AND PERHAPS EVEN A LOW ACCESS TO CERTAIN SOCIAL GROUPS.</p>

<p>!!!!!!HOWEVER, GETTING BONUS POINTS/FAVORED ADMISSIONS AT ELITE/ VERY SELECTIVE UNIVERSITIES WILL NOT HELP, REMEDY, OR CHANGE THIS IN ANY MANNER EVEN REMOTELY!!!!!!!!!!</p>

<p>!!!!!!!!!IT HAS BEEN EXTENSIVELY STUDIED AND VIRTUALLY PROVEN THAT ONE'S SALARY DOES NOT DEPEND ON WHERE YOU WENT TO COLLEGE, BUT RATHER ONLY IF YOU WENT TO ANY COLLEGE AT ALL!!!!!!!</p>

<p>!!!!!FORCIFULLY PUTTING MORE MINORITIES INTO HARVARD WILL NOT LIFT ECONOMIC OR SOCIAL BURDENS!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

<p>!!!!!!!!AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS SENSELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

<p>**********Before you post again, read the above, as well as my previous posts. This is directed mainly at Y2kplaya, who is just joining the conversation and is frivilously repeating old arguments that have been addressed.</p>

<p>"people automatically associate AA with blacks"</p>

<p>-I hope your not talking about my posts, you can see throughout this thread I know what minorities benefit from AA and which ones suffer from it. I didn't bring up the slave trade, someone else did, and I'm merely adressing it.</p>

<p>"IN the workplace white women are the biggest benefactor of AA"</p>

<p>"Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended ("Title VII"), prohibits discrimination in employment based on certain protected classifications, including race, color, sex, pregnancy, religion, national origin, age (40 or over) and disability. Many states have individual laws that prohibit discrimination in employment as well."</p>

<p>Translation for the dumb: YOU CAN'T HIRE ONE PERSON OVER ANOTHER SIMPLY BECAUSE ONE IS FEMALE. IT IS ILLEGAL.</p>

286

<p>"Translation for the dumb: YOU CAN'T HIRE ONE PERSON OVER ANOTHER SIMPLY BECAUSE ONE IS FEMALE. IT IS ILLEGAL."</p>

<p>This is one of the few things that you came close to being correct about. Many times people have told me that the only reason why I got into summer programs was because I was black and boy did that **** me off.</p>

<p>If you knew anything about the government quotas you would know that certain amount of government jobs have to be partioned to women (damn liberals). They won't get the job because they are a women, but they will get the job because they are similiarly qualified and a women.</p>

287

<p>"A generation lasts 30 years, not 65."</p>

<p>-That is my definition of generation, one that is characterized by the average age of a person, not by a particular epoch in American history. In fact, there is no definitive number for a generation</p>

<p>You can define a generation any way you like of course, but if you think a little you will realize that 30 years is a time between a person is born and a time a person produces his offsprings (which represents the start of a new generation).</p>

288

<p>“You can define a generation any way you like of course, but if you think a little you will realize that 30 years is a time between a person is born and a time a person produces his offsprings (which represents the start of a new generation).”</p>

<p>-True, but the social and economic baggage of the parent does not disappear just because the parent had a new child. The baby boomers were born from about 1940-1960, yet today they are still in very big ways affecting the American economy and American policy today. Thus, to me, the true affects of a generation do not end until the members of said generation are dead. </p>

<p>“!!!!!!HOWEVER, GETTING BONUS POINTS/FAVORED ADMISSIONS AT ELITE/ VERY SELECTIVE UNIVERSITIES WILL NOT HELP, REMEDY, OR CHANGE THIS IN ANY MANNER EVEN REMOTELY!!!!!!!!!!</p>

<p>!!!!!!!!!IT HAS BEEN EXTENSIVELY STUDIED AND VIRTUALLY PROVEN THAT ONE'S SALARY DOES NOT DEPEND ON WHERE YOU WENT TO COLLEGE, BUT RATHER ONLY IF YOU WENT TO ANY COLLEGE AT ALL!!!!!!!</p>

<p>!!!!!FORCIFULLY PUTTING MORE MINORITIES INTO HARVARD WILL NOT LIFT ECONOMIC OR SOCIAL BURDENS!!!!!!!!!!!”</p>

<p>-So are you saying that you only have a problem with AA at elite institutions? At any rate, again, since elite schools are colleges too, your argument is moot; since more than elite schools have AA programs, the effects of “just attending a college” are being realized. If this is truly what you are arguing, then it should not matter what colleges have the program as long as they are colleges. Also, nobody is being “forcefully put” into elite schools; most admissions rates at elite schools, for Blacks at least, are very near the rate of the population as a whole. As a matter of fact, there is NO evidence that Black people benefit during the admissions process at Harvard, short of Harvard saying it has an AA program. </p>

<p>There is, however, evidence that elite schools tend to have higher rates of admissions into elite grad schools, and, at least in the legal field, the most profitable law firms have many more lawyers who are graduates of elite programs than those at less-prestigious ones. </p>

<p>“Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended ("Title VII"), prohibits discrimination in employment based on certain protected classifications, including race, color, sex, pregnancy, religion, national origin, age (40 or over) and disability. Many states have individual laws that prohibit discrimination in employment as well."</p>

<p>Translation for the dumb: YOU CAN'T HIRE ONE PERSON OVER ANOTHER SIMPLY BECAUSE ONE IS FEMALE. IT IS ILLEGAL.”</p>

<p>-A person can be hired on the basis of his or her gender if the gender of the person is essential to the fulfillment of the job, ie; if a person is looking to hire a wet nurse, a man can in no capacity fulfill the duty, and thus would be turned away from being hired simply because he is a man. It is also illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion, but does this mean a Christian organization must hire a Muslim applicant? Of course not….. The law is never as straightforward as you would like to believe.</p>

<p>“kk19131, Portugal was responsible for 4.5 million slaves during their four century stint in the Trans-Atlantic trade. We recieved more slaves from Portugal than Britain.”</p>

<p>-That’s fine, but when did said slaves begin to come to the American colonies? 1619. The fact that the slave trade in Portugal began much earlier has nothing to do with the affects of the trade in early America.</p>

289

<p>kk19131, I didn't even make the statement, I'm just saying that's where the much repeated 400 years of enslavement comes from, Colonies or not. The other debated fact is that Portuguese brought slaves to Hispanola & Florida in 1502....whether that is America or not.</p>

290

<p>Ok, I understand.</p>

291

<p>To Peter Parker </p>

<p>We have made strides towards equality, I think we can all agree with that, but these strides while great are tiny compared to the massive injustice imposed by the white man onto the Black man in our society. It's like a race where the white man had a 400 year head start. The black man may actually be going faster than the white man, much faster and still picking up speed, but because of that 400 year head start the black man is still miles behind. That 400 years doesn't even include the ambigious calls for equality(Reconstruction, Civil Rights Movement) that have had intentional loopholes. These dates and acts are too often seen as coverall bandaids for the race relations in our country. </p>

<p>Trying to compare the African American experience in this country is not only simple minded but extremely disrespectful. There is NO other situation that comes close to representing the African American Experience. NONE. Considering almost all of the promises for compensation for the horrible acts legally adminstered by the White man in our society have been reniged, at least this one system of societal checks and balances (Affirmative Action) can go unabaded.</p>

292

<p>But what of those blacks who have never suffered, those who live in luxury and attend fancy prep schools? Do they deserve an advantage just for what their grandparents faced?</p>

<p>
[quote]
There is NO other situation that comes close to representing the African American Experience. NONE.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Um, I'll give you one. The Native American Experience.
The white man came, stole the land, slaughtered the people, outlawed the culture, threw those remaining into depressed, poverty-striken reservations and left them to rot. There is no other race in the states that comes close to their levels of poverty.
I've been to over 25 reservations and all had an unemployment rate of 70%+.</p>

<p>They've had just as much racism against them, if not more, it's just that there are so few left in comparison that it has never been made as public. It's sad really, tribes are dying out, the blood getting weaker and weaker. Soon enough there will be only faint traces left.</p>

293

<p>“They've had just as much racism against them, if not more”</p>

<p>-And I’m sure Indians receive advantages from AA programs where they are minorities too. Let us not stray from the topic at hand by starting to argue over which race has been affected the most by discrimination. Such a discussion will lead us nowhere, not to say that the AA discussion hasn’t done the same.</p>

294

<p>
[quote]
I think we can all agree with that, but these strides while great are tiny compared to the massive injustice imposed by the white man onto the Black man in our society. It's like a race where the white man had a 400 year head start.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Where have I ever disagreed with this statement? I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Black men are behind in many ways in our society. That is unfair and it should be changed as soon as possible. However, and pay attention to this part, AA WILL NOT SOLVE THAT PROBLEM.</p>

<p>There are a wealth of other solutions though that no one bothers to mention. Perhaps we can give more government aid to these insufficient all-black inner city schools where the problems begin. That is one of the roots of the problem, as far as the education aspect, is it not?</p>

295

<p>newsflash for EVERYONE</p>

<p>if you have read/posted on this thread more than once
you have NO life
go make friends
go work on ur college apps.
go get a job
SOMETHING
colleges like people with actual personalities too</p>

296

<p>You are silly and rude.</p>

297

<p>“Perhaps we can give more government aid to these insufficient all-black inner city schools where the problems begin.”</p>

<p>Again, the answer is not that simple. First, it is not only schools in the inner city that need assistance, nor only all-Black schools. There are many places that are not “inner-city” or “all-Black” that contain large minority student populations. Would the same program that works for NYC work for a random town in Mississippi? It’s highly unlikely. It should also be noted that AA does not only benefit those from the inner city or those who are black. Thus, cultural and social differences of different areas would require any possible program to increase educational output to be individualized for every area. Also, like with all social engineering programs, such a program would not be easy to create. </p>

<p>In many states the amount of tax dollars a school district gets is pretty much based on property tax revenue of the area, thus, areas with lower property taxes receive fewer funds. Such an educational system is inherently not designed to alleviate the plight of those in poorer areas. Could the law be changed to the opposite? More than likely yes, it could. It is, however, very unlikely that people would support such a socialist system of taxation.</p>

<p>Education, especially early education, is not a high priority of most governments in the US, and with 51 governments regulating education differently, it’s not really possible to create such a unified program, at least not one that would render any actual results.</p>

298

<p>Before another over privileged white person complain that one of us URM took their spot please do the following </p>

<p>A: Make sure there aren’t any white students with lower stats then you that got in.</p>

<p>B: See how those student minority student stats compared to other student in his/her ethnicity.</p>

<p>C find out about the background of the student. None of the minority students from my school are flashing cash and partying up. All of those going to top school (and there an not that many apparently affirmative action still require you have be a strong student and not just be Black, Hispanic, or Asian). Make sure that they really aren’t disadvantaged. I certainly didn’t make up my drug addict mother and absentee father just to get into school.
I understand why some people should be upset. I have a lost of white friend who have similar experiences to mine. When they complain I listen because I know it’s genuine. It’s the people who have college tutors, sat prep, applicant advisors, attended private school and who have helping parents behind them that annoy me. When some one like that complains that someone like me is taking THEIR spot (as if their entitled to it) it really offends me. The only thing I have ever done is try my best what I have. If I had taken prep courses I may have done better on the SATs. Had I gone to an elite prep school I may have gotten high AP’s. In reality I had a crappy home life and went to a crappy school. My meager 1850 SAT score 190 PSAT score and My AP scores still hold the record in my high school.
Finally I think you need to realize that at most elite school 70% of the student body is white. If you couldn’t make that top 70% it’s your fault not ours.</p>

299

<p>AA based on race is wrong.
AA based on socio-economic factors is okay.
BOOYAKASHA!</p>

300

<p>How well thought out...... :rolleyes:</p>