<p>I've never heard anyone use the "past racism" argument to defend affirmative action. Affirmative action is about building a diverse and vibrant campus community with different perspectives and viewpoints represented. Sans affirmative action most college campuses would be predominantly white and asian and those students would receive a lesser education by virtue of continuing to be shut up in communities similar to their high school. To a potential applicant AA might seem pants but from the college's or admitted students persepective it makes great sense.</p>
<p>"As for his ACT score, I highly doubt that he had tutors, prep courses, advice from GCs or highly educated parents -- the kinds of things that probably enrich your life, and boost your score."</p>
<p>And middle-class white kids always have these opportunities? My parents could never afford anything like that, not to mention my public school's guidance office is worth about ****. Plus my parents didn't go to college, my dad didn't even finish high school. But I'm still technically a middle class white kid and colleges will probably think I had all those advantages. </p>
<p>I'm actually FOR affirmative action to a large degree, but don't go around overgeneralizing the opportunities of somebody who isn't an URM.</p>
<p>Also.. "Go to India or China where kids whose families earn $500 a year are smarter than most valedictorians in US schools"
The kinds of generalizations like "Asian people are smarter than other people" are pretty ****ing ridiculous and only further all kinds of racism. The reason that such a large percentage of Asian children excel here in the US is because their parents make them and tell them to be grateful for all the opportunities that can come from doing well in school and want to take advantage of them and the reason they seem to do so well in China is because of the education system. They aren't any smarter than any other ethnicity, what about the teenagers in Nigeria or Kuwait or Argentina that are plenty times more brilliant than the average poor Chinese child or an American valedictorian?</p>
<p>yeah randomperson i hate republicans because they always get the job done....its such a shame that they are the only ones giving a f*** about this country...and the only ones fighting for it...y do u think republicans make up the majority of the armed forces??!?!??!</p>
<p>This is why i cant stand people who know nothing about affirmative action.</p>
<p>Obviously if you guys have any common sense, you would realize that the OP (uhhh) is simply bitter. This dude introduces himself as a so called "staunch liberal" who , in his opinion is, "fighting for minorities rights". Hmmm, why does he change so quickly from "fighting for minorities' rights" to disapproving of AA?</p>
<p>Oh wait, because of one isolated experience at his visit to Northwestern where he met a so called "arrogant", yet "lazy" URM who implicitly does not work hard and just wants to benefit from AA. OK, I won't even waste my time pointing out his/her's ignorance. ONE EXPERIENCE CHANGED YOUR VIEWS, ok so what a "staunch liberal" you are, so that's why AA must be wrong. OK, sure buddy.</p>
<p>And for the people who say that it should be based on "merit" alone, don't even realize that "merit" alone is not purely SAT scores/grades. HYPS wont accept you just cause of your SAT scores/grades; you have to offer something to them that theyd want and would like in their upcoming class.</p>
<p>This is why i have no sympathy for the applicants, stereotypically asian, who think that theyll get into HYPS with scores/grades alone without any reputable passions/EC's.</p>
<p>AA was instituted to correct for discrimination that racial groups, not financial or socioeconomic group, faced for generations and stil faces today.</p>
<p>Its the same people who bring up the example of the "rich URM" example who they believe that those are the only URM's who benefit and slack off. I go to a superelite boarding school, where if your propositions that "all elite schools are filled with URM's" then that must mean that alot of them are here. Oh wait, not exactly. Phillips Exeter, like many elite boarding schools, take many of their minorities from underpriviledged areas through programs called "Prep 9", "ABC", and others. If you guys dont know what those programs are, then check them up. Those kids dont look like "rich URMs" to me.</p>
<p>If you asians/white applicants would actually differentiate yourself from the rest of the pack then probably you'd be more desirable in college's eyes. Colleges dont accept all of the same kind of person, hence "diversity".</p>
<p>I go to the best high school in the world and I've noticed that the asians/white applicants who do best are the ones who have untypical qualities. I know asians who dont resemble the "OMG my parents make me do math all the time so I have to get an 800 Math IIC", but pursue untypical interests for them, such as excelling at sports and Ive seen many of them do well at acceptances at elite colleges, despite their lower stats, because they decided to be UNIQUE, not COMMON like everyone else!</p>
<p>"yeah randomperson i hate republicans because they always get the job done....its such a shame that they are the only ones giving a f*** about this country...and the only ones fighting for it...y do u think republicans make up the majority of the armed forces??!?!??!"</p>
<p>I don't want to throw this thread off topic too terribly, but I would like to ask you a question: What, specificially, leads you to the conclusion that Republicans "always get the job done"? Recent events??</p>
<p>"If you asians/white applicants would actually differentiate yourself from the rest of the pack then probably you'd be more desirable in college's eyes. Colleges dont accept all of the same kind of person, hence "diversity"."</p>
<p>As opposed to a Hispanic applicant who differentiates him/herself simply by his/her skin color? I'm not saying that that makes them really differentiated accordin to elite colleges, but by addressing just white and asian applicants, you seem to assume that it does.</p>
<p>Also, it'd be a lot nicer of you not to say "you asians/white...". It's kind of like if a white person said "your people" to a black person when talking about all black people. Asian and white people aren't the same..just y'know..a FYI for you in case you hadn't figured it out by now.</p>
<p>You really need to realise that you do not have to be a republican to be against affirmative action...</p>
<p>DiamondT, I agree with much of your post, but I think that you also go considerably overboard. Most importantly, there is nothing wrong with an Asian student with "typical" interests - one who is genuinely passionate about math or science and does very well at it. While those with atypical (heh, not "untypical", Mr. "Best High School in the World") interests can also be great, passionate people, the stereotype that all Asians with interests in math or science are mindless overachievers whose parents force them into studying is incredibly unfair.</p>
<p>The first colleges were set up to teach only white males, it all went downhill around the early 1800s when they started letting women and minorities into college. </p>
<p>sarcasm</p>
<p>joev,</p>
<p>I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that your post was a joke. :D</p>
<p>[edit]
Hmm.. it's really late -- I didn't see your footnote :)</p>
<p>I don't think calling urself Republican is justified at all. Define for me for Republicanism is because it doesn't mean conservative. The meaning obviously has changed. Also remember that in the US that party loyalty is really weak. Look at all the conservatives undermining Bush's nomination of Miers to the court. I would cautionly call u conservative ONLY on that aspect but then again what is conservative and liberal because those meanings have been shifting around a lot recently? Define it and call urself whatever.</p>
<p>oooooohhhhh I want to get into this... but it's... so... late... Tomorrow... I'll be here. Oh I will. I will comment on the generalizations being slung by both sides :) keep it up. It's fun hah.</p>
<p>Great educations can be had at schools other than those in the Ivy League. Just because an Indian or Chinese kid got rejected at HYPS does not justify calling affirmative action outdated, useless, or wrong. There are far greater injustices in the world than being forced to go to Tufts instead of Harvard. Where you go for your undergrad years is not nearly as important as where you go for graduate school, where it's probably more of a meritocracy. </p>
<p>However, there are certain things about "overrepresentation" that trouble me. What exactly does that mean anyway? Too many well-educated minorities are a hazard to society? If there are 60 qualified Asians out of 100, then only about 5 of them should be permitted because of their population in relation to the rest of the country? Don't you want the best people for the job? It's as if race overshadows everything, even merit and performance.</p>
<p>
[quote]
eleven...
and the basis for your meritocracy would be what, exactly? grades? test scores? class rank? athletic prowess? musical talent? dramatic talent? leadership ability? mathematical ability? prizes won? ability to pay? extracurricular accomplishment? community service? writing talent? all of the above?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What about Candidate A, who has all of the above, vs. URM Candidate B, who doesn't? In that case, race becomes the only factor, and this is when AA becomes an ugly political tool. Sometimes we oversimplify things where it's Candidate A with all the grades and scores vs. URM Candidate B with the community service, inspiring life story, and great undeveloped talent in some area.</p>
<p>Affirmative Action is reverse-discimination. If AA were based on socio-economics, it would help all the disadvantaged. Period.</p>
<p>how funny is that guys... Affirmative Action is discrimination! Just say it again, Affirmative action is a very very mild form of racism as it discriminates inviduals. Would you call not having Affirmative Action a lack of discrimination and thus...hmm....the actualy fair way?</p>
<p>
[quote]
affirmative action was developed to address the FACT that certain groups were being discriminated against. And, as it turns out, these groups were racial, not financial. It remains the case, today, even with affirmative action, that certain groups are still under represented.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>nycdad said it. It was instituted because of racial discrimination. It continues because those groups are underrepresented, not because they are discriminated against. In fact, quite the reverse.</p>
<p>Also, I have to put in my two cents about "politics". Did you ever notice that while college students with no real world experience overwhelmingly identify themselves as "liberal" or "democrat", that often changes when they go out into the real world. Many people find themselves to become more "conservative" or "republican" when they have a job, house, family, etc.</p>
<p>I have always been a strong opponent of affirmative action in the way it is implemented in past years. To promote a person solely because of race or ethnicity is totally abhorrant to me.</p>
<p>In fact, AA assumes that all Asians and "white " applicants are rich and have never experience any form of discrimination in the past, considering their prior generations, while all black and latino applicants must be poor and, thus, need help. This is hogwash!</p>
<p>Now, if they implemented AA based on actual economic need, I may not like it,but at least I can see more sense in that.</p>
<p>You would think the "best high school in the world" would teach its students how to write in coherent English and spell, but I guess not.</p>
<p>I must ask a question about AA: When will it ever be enough? When will past wrongs be righted? Probably never, because AA is just a bandaid on the underlying problem, which is NOT continued discrimination. I think AA is destined to failure because it does not address the real reason that certain groups are "underrepresented", which is primarily socioeconomic. AA's time has passed.</p>
<p>First of all, Hispanic is a self-defined term. From the Census bureau.."People who identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any race. Origin can be viewed as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person's parents or ancestors before their arrival in the United States."</p>
<p>All I'm saying is that, unlike 'Male / Female' which is pretty definable (ok, not 100 percent, but we won't go there), Hispanic (and other racial) definitions are (1) honor system and (2) somewhat ill-defined (I believe). Take that for what it's worth.</p>