Croberts Tells You About Affirmative Action

Applying to College
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Okay, here’s an even better scenario to why i support affirmative action. You get a white kid. From pleasanton, goes to a good school, that offers great courses, sat prep, digital multimedia recource center (library). He lives in a typical suburban california home. 600,000 dollar house with 4 bed rooms and only a sibling or two. He gets a 1250 on his sat’s.

You take a latino kid. He lives in stockton.(those of you framliar with nothern california are already aware of the job discrepancy in the areas.)The kid has to work a job just to help pay rent. He goes to the local high school(pretty much all the schools in stockton are dumps). No multimedia blah blah blah, no prep courses, and lives in a small duplex with 5 brothers and sisters. He gets an 1180 on his SAT’s.

Who would I take?

I’d take the latino(even if he was white, or what ever color for that matter), because he comes from a different situation. You give that latino kid a chance to study at Universty, with privacy, grants, and loans, and hes going to have a great chance at improving his situation acedmically. Theres no job, no brothers and sisters, no Vato Loco’s waiting around the corner from the school. Once you kids hopefully get into what ever schools you are headed to you will realize how lucky(at least you suburbanites) have it. College is an experience that will open your eyes and will make you realize just how lucky you really are. Some of you really need to get off your moms teets.

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<p>so then affirmative action should be reformed to be just economic status. You say it yourself "Even if he was white, or what ever color for that matter" so yeah I agree. We need to modify affirmative action so it helps the poor of all races.</p>

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<p>Yep, mr Caulfield is right.</p>

<p>You just made the point almost every anti-affirmative action person makes arguing against it. Not all Latinos are dirt poor. Not all whites are rich. To assume otherwise is completely wrong.</p>

<p>Of course the latino in your example deserves a boost, but you need to ask yourself WHY he deserves that boost. Does he deserve it because he has had a more difficult upbringing and strived through it anyway, or because his skin is a little darker? Your argument furthers the cause of the former, but does nothing to answer the main question of AA right now:</p>

<p>Why does a URM deserve a boost for (and only for) having a different skin tone?</p>

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<p>See i like this feed back. Intelligent conversation is good. Now that we have established the fact that affirmative action benefits the poor we need to examine a statistic that can be close related. There is a large proprtion of poor blacks and latino's in relation to middle class and upper class blacks and latinos. Would it only make sense than that they should benefit too minorities that are poor is what i speak in regards to. Not only that but i retort the arguements posing questions on "rich minorities". As well all know, when we apply to college, if dependent of our parents, their incomes must be noted on the application. Do you not think that colleges take this into account?</p>

<p>This poses a further arguement...What about us who do not need grants, do we feel cheated if someone less wealthy takes our place and we get the short end of the stick? I personally dont. I come from a typical suburban california backround, i know i have a good chance of being alright in the long run. Im a FIRM believer in giving opportunities to the less fortunate. </p>

<p>My final speculation is that alot of you dont know the statistical information regarding howmany people and what type of people benefit from this program. I speculate that many east coasters ( to a californian that means if you live east of nevada =] ), midwesterners, and southerners, simply just cant stand anything that benefits minorities and not them. I here alot of they, them, those people, etc. How many of you honestly know one person who youve encountered that benefitting from affirmitive action?</p>

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<p>I go to Michigan at the moment. I know many, many people who have benefitted from AA. Your points are taken, but I still think you're reasoning off false premise--namely that URMs are uniformly poor and whites are rich.</p>

<p>You say that schools are looking at the economic status when they're deciding whether or not to give AA benefits, and that simply isn't true. Most consider them two beasts (and in some schools they aren't even mutually exclusive -- you can get admissions boosts for being poor in addition to boosts for being URM).</p>

<p>I'm all for giving equal opporunity, but nobody has ever convinced me as to why skin color and skin color alone should tip admissions decisions. You talk of rich URMs, but there is a sizeable Black middle class that has grown up with every resource available. Why do they, by the virtue of their skin color and only their skin color, deserve a boost over an equally competative white applicant who lives next door? Why do they deserve a boost over an inner city white kid?</p>

<p>That being said, I support AA based on economic and other hardship 100%. It has common sense on its side. Without engaging in major stereotyping, you cannot say that race based AA has this, as well. You would have to classify blacks as intrinsically inferior to make that argument coherent, and that isn't something most people will hold. Also, by using this type of reasoning (even if gone about in a more roundabout way) people reinforce racial attitudes that perpetuate inequality. The cure can't consist of circular infliction of the disease.</p>

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<p>I don't think affirmative action is all about helping the disadvantage. I think it's about getting people with diverse perspectives in the classroom. For my money, I think a kid who was raised a rich black kid in America has as interesting a perspective as a one raised a poor black kid in America, and it's only when you get to know both of them that you have a chance of understanding race in our society. Minorities are "diverse" too, a fact some people seem to not get. </p>

<p>I think colleges and universities should make sure there is a place at their institution for the poor, whatever their race. But I don't fault them for aggressively recruiting minorities regardless of economic status. And women in engineering, and men in nursing, and whatever other sort of underrepresented population (and perspective) they want to go for.</p>

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<ul>
<li>I don't think affirmative action is all about helping the disadvantage. I think it's about getting people with diverse perspectives in the classroom.</li>
</ul>

<p>Why does the rich black kid have a different perspective from the rich white kid living next door? Where is the difference between these two people?</p>

<p>-and it's only when you get to know both of them that you have a chance of understanding race in our society</p>

<p>Why? Why do I need to know both of them to understand race? How has the rich black kid felt the effects of his race? And why don't I need to know rich white kids to understand race there too?</p>

<ul>
<li>Minorities are "diverse" too, a fact some people seem to not get. </li>
</ul>

<p>Skin color is the only thing there. Diversity is about people who live in different places, have experienced different things and have had different lives. Thats diversity, not the fact that my skin color and yours are a shade different.</p>

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<p>terahedr0n: What's different in the life experience and perspective of two students with similar backgrounds, one black and one white? I can't really answer because I can't determine whether or not you're being facetious.</p>

<p>You ask why you wouldn't also benefit from getting to know rich white kids. No one says you wouldn't. At present, it's not hard to come into contact with affluent white kids on most college campuses. They're not underrepresented. No one's saying they aren't valuable. I think everyone's got interesting perspectives. But college campuses are especially short on certain types of people, and certain types of perspectives, and I (personally) think they provide a better education to ALL students when they offer a richer mix of diverse students.</p>

<p>So as you can see, I agree with your definition of diversity. My point is that if a campus is concerned about ethnic/racial diversity (which is just one type), I believe it ought to be interested in recruiting members of ethnic groups from ALL types of backgrounds.</p>

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<p>i generally side with the pro aa argument, but i see your argument as pretty flawed. i actually agree with you that that type of diversity is important, but it is not being practiced. if what you said was truly the basis of aa, colleges would be actively recruiting and admitting students on the basis of their sexual orientation, attractiveness, color hair, weight, and height. people with different levels on those scales all have completely different perspectives on life, and i would probably think that being ugly or obese would be a bigger setback than your skin color.</p>

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<p>It seems to me, Ace, that many campuses achieve diversity in those areas already. </p>

<p>For whatever reason, the usual admissions processes result in a varied assortment of blondes, redheads, plump people, slender folk, short people, and tall people. Same with sexual orientation, as far as I am aware. </p>

<p>IF any of these groups were underrepresented, and colleges had reason to believe that being blonde, or tall, or whatever gave students a unique and valuable perspective that the campus is poorer for not having, then I'd expect them to do just what they've done for the poor, and gender groups in certain fields, and students from some geographic areas, and for certain ethnic groups: re-examine the admissions process. Look at the pipeline for college. Then start doing what they can to redress the shortages of redheads or short people or whatever. </p>

<p>In short: It's not that colleges don't value all kinds of diversity. It's just that they generally achieve a lot of it (especially the kinds you're specifying here) without having to do anything special in admissions. It may not be called "affirmative action" when Dartmouth gives leeway to a kid from South Dakota, or Olin takes a female candidate over an equally qualified male candidate. But it's the same principle.</p>

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<p>Crobert, What you are talking about is theoretical AA!! I know, I live close to pleasanton. BUt the reality is far, far different from the truth. IF AA really were like the way you etioned in you first post, i'd support it ('an i'm azn) But, you know, COlleges just want to get stat's. They want the numbers in the college guidebooks saying this percent hispanic/black, etc. THis girl from my cousin's school, she is a 3rd generation carribean. Her Dad is a docter, and her mom is an oral surgeon. She lives in Blackhawk. SInce ur form where i'm from, SF bay Area, you know how rich people i Blackhawk are, rite? She got a 1350 SAT, she is rich beyond belief, and get expensive tutors. She's a typical CA prep, and only dresses n Abercombie. NOt even top 5% her class, think she's like #9 or something. And guess what college she got into? YALE. and this half white/ half asain girl, with almost the identical Stat's, except she was #3, with MORE extracurriculars, unique ones too, did not get in. Her family is less well off than the other girl's and yet she did not get in.
THis is exactly why AA is so screwed up. Instead of helping POOR URM, it is the RICH URM's that are benefiting. Well, you say, she's gonna contribute diversity? NO WAY. ALL her friends are causcasin, basically does not associae at all with backs/latinos.
THe truth is that AA doesn't have as big a pool of poor URM who would suceed in their college, since in reality the large majority of them would be inner city kids without the right preparation for harvard, etc. If they took them in and the kids dropped out bc of too much pressure, activists would complain. If Collges didn't take in as many URM's, the activist would also complain. It's a double edge sword, so colleges try to even that out by taking in URM that would suceed, and the reality is that most of them like this girl in my old school, are very, very well off and probably would not ontribute to diversity in person, ONLY in skin color. It's the sad reality of AA.</p>

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<p>Im sorry tehedron or what ever in gods name your screen name is but i must say this: if you HONESTLY think that black people that are wealthy don't feel the effects of racism, than i need some of the crack you are smoking</p>

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<p>Monezzi thats great that you live close to pleasanton but i live in pleasanton number 1. number 2, this goes for all of you, stop with the made up stories.</p>

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<p>"It seems to me, Ace, that many campuses achieve diversity in those areas already." </p>

<p>well the thing is, they don't even keep track of those characteristics(whether they should is another debate). that sort of gives the impression that they really don't care or know if they have that kind of diversity.</p>

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<p>i mean seriously " a girl who goes to my cousins school" gimmie a break. provide us with proven facts. and even if what you say really did happen, you have no proof that this happens "all the time". thats just a generalization that in your mind seems logical. But there are empirical approaches to this subject. Its called looking at data first and than trying to type like you actually know what your talking about. Furthermore, just to go on a tangent, do "preps" still wear abercrombie? Most "california kids" i knnow dont and never did, atleast around here, except for its breif popularity in what? 1998?</p>

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<p>Ace,</p>

<p>You can't tell me you're really concerned because campuses don't keep statistics on the number of tall people? I can guarantee you that if federal (or state, for public Universities) started requiring this reporting, or if guidebooks asked for it, or it was part of the CDS (Common Data Set), they would. Or if it was shown to be an area of interest from the standpoint of social justice, they might. They don't. Because at the moment, no one cares. Perhaps they do not care because they presume (rightly so) that most campuses have a mix of hair color and height. You seem to be complaining that colleges don't care about a form of diversity that few other people care a lot about, either. So it's not clear to me what the basis for complaint is. Have I missed your point?</p>

<p>Some of these factors (like, say, hair color) haven't been considered a major factor in how one is raised, how one experiences society, how one is treated, how one develops an identity, etc. Others have (sexual orientation, and, to some extent, size). So some have been studied a little, and some have been studied a lot. Maybe the former is an oversight and we just don't know it yet. Time will tell. I predict colleges will react accordingly. But among those characteristics that have been looked at, and are considered important, it's clear that colleges aren't having a problem enrolling people across the spectrum. They don't need to carefully track the number of overweight students. They don't need to collect data on sexual orientation. Because there's little evidence these populations are underrepresented on campus, and little evidence that society is the worse off for their not being more of them. If there was such evidence, than I suspect colleges would show more interest.</p>

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<p>I am not making this up, Crobert. THink about it. Not just Black people and URM suffer racism. SO do azns. YOu DOn't think so? DO a searh in Google for Tsunami song Miss Info. THis stuff rang on the radio for A WEEK. AMerican society is more racist in general as azns haven't yet assimilated into rural areas. ALso, I used to live in LIvermore, i Live in Berkely. THis girl is for real. I have her name, but don't want to get into legal issues. If you do a search in google with Tri-valley / girl / Harvard, her name WILL pop up. I'm not racist, just mad that wealthy URM's hae a better shot at harvard, etc as compared to Vietmese Refugees who, in most Cases, have gone through so much. What IS the point of your post? DO you go to amador high or Foothill? I'm not flaming, i'm just trying to show my point since it's sad how this world is...Although this is just one single case, It DOES happen since, for example, one of the reasons HArvard gave free tution to low-income families is so that they can get more URM who deserve to get in and not to WEALTHY URM's.
Yeah, i guess. but turely, pleasanton is just a very sheltered place as compared to Berkely, so i guess race relations is a touchy topic. btw, are you an URM? just wondering becuase i have never seen a caucasin advocating so fierociously on this subject.</p>

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<ul>
<li>Im sorry tehedron or what ever in gods name your screen name is but i must say this: if you HONESTLY think that black people that are wealthy don't feel the effects of racism, than i need some of the crack you are smoking</li>
</ul>

<p>croberts532, I have wealthy black friends. Ive asked them if they feel the effects of racism. The answer is no. Ive asked them if they support AA. They say no. And while they alone may not provide evidence that wealthy people dont feel racism, its a start.</p>

<p>My screenname is "tetrahedr0n". A tetrahedron is a pyramid with a triangular base.</p>

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<p>Wow Monzzei that was such a juvinille reply, but ill give you the bouts your quoets will be indicated by the <> that surrounds your statement:</p>

<p><i am="" not="" making="" this="" up,="" crobert.="" think="" about="" it.="" just="" black="" people="" and="" urm="" suffer="" racism.="" so="" do="" azns.="" you="" don't="" so?=""> </i></p><i am="" not="" making="" this="" up,="" crobert.="" think="" about="" it.="" just="" black="" people="" and="" urm="" suffer="" racism.="" so="" do="" azns.="" you="" don't="" so?="">

<p>I never said black people arn't the only ones who suffer from racism. Asians do too. I have never refuted that fact. How ever i would speculate that asians fare FAR FAR better in terms of racial treatment, than blacks. Until i hear of an asian who was tied up to the back of a pick up truck and dragged around,im going to hold to that statement. </p>

<p>< AMerican society is more racist in general as azns haven't yet assimilated into rural areas></p>

<p>I doubt that simply because asians "dont live in rural areas", that tahts why ignorant people are racists towards them. besides there are plenty of asians in rural california cities like tracy, stockton, modesto. </p>

<p>< ALso, I used to live in LIvermore, i Live in Berkely.> </p>

<p>thats nice.</p>

<p><this girl="" is="" for="" real.="" i="" have="" her="" name,="" but="" don't="" want="" to="" get="" into="" legal="" issues.="" if="" you="" do="" a="" search="" in="" google="" with="" tri-valley="" harvard,="" name="" will="" pop="" up.="" i'm="" not="" racist,="" just="" mad="" that="" wealthy="" urm's="" hae="" better="" shot="" at="" etc="" as="" compared="" vietmese="" refugees="" who,="" most="" cases,="" gone="" through="" so="" much.="" what="" the="" point="" of="" your="" post?=""></this></p>

<p>like i said, i have my doubts in regards to the validity of your statement, but like i said earlier, even if it is true, you have no facts to proove "urms have a better shot at harvard as compared to vietnamese refugee's'. just one persons experience ("a friend of a cousin" i might add). on persons experience doesnt define aa. that is my point. my point is act like your going to college sometime soon and use facts. </p>

<p><do you="" go="" to="" amador="" high=""> </do></p>

<p>I went there back in the dark ages hehe. </p>

<p><yeah, i="" guess.="" but="" turely,="" pleasanton="" is="" just="" a="" very="" sheltered="" place="" as="" compared="" to="" berkely,="" so="" guess="" race="" relations="" touchy="" topic.="" btw,="" are="" you="" an="" urm?="" wondering="" becuase="" have="" never="" seen="" caucasin="" advocating="" fierociously="" on="" this="" subject=""></yeah,></p>

<p>I wont deny pleasanton is a shelterd place as compared to berkeley. But berkeley is no east side san jose or east oakland, so lets just leave it at that. Ive walked the streets of berkeley drunk as a skunk at 3 am and never had anything happen to me. Where as here in pleasanton some punk highschool kids tried to shoot me with a paintball gun infront of my own house 2 nights ago.(kind of funny when your older seeing what it feels like to be on the other end of the stick when it comes to high school pranks.) </p>

<p><btw, are="" you="" an="" urm?="" just="" wondering="" becuase="" i="" have="" never="" seen="" a="" caucasin="" advocating="" so="" fierociously="" on="" this="" subject.=""></btw,></p>

<p>First off, if i was, would it matter? second, you live in BERKELEY, the second most liberal city in cal, only SF is slightly more liberal than berkeley. You mean to tell me, as a resident of berkeley you have never seen one liberal white person advocate for causes that benefit non whites? I find that interesting.....</p>
</i>

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<p>tetra whos a whatsa i dont give a crap if you claim you have wealthy black friends or not. You dont think they feel the effects of racism huh? I propose an experiment to find out if wealthy urms experience racism. Lets go to a KKK meeting and bring some wealthy black kids. Oh i bet because their rich the KKK will welcome them with open arms! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is black people encounter racism every day. Whether its direct or subtle. Abstract or concrete. Whether they know it or not.</p>