<p>Everyone in his labs grade down? Are you telling us that you performed partnered experiments and did partnered lab reports? All data collected was shared and plotted and you suffered? I don't disagree w/ your opinion I just want to understand the situation you are explaining. You say this happened at a top 25 school. Help me out here......draw the picture again.</p>
<p>Hazmat, read an earlier post by him (about a black student crying).</p>
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The saddest sight I saw in my days at the University of Michigan was a black kid crying in the library. I had met him in intramural basketball and he didn't seem to be a bad person. We got to talking and he told me his entire story. The UofM had payed his school to bus in the top 25% of their high school class (which was entirely black) in to fill out applications. All but one was ultimately accepted. They had lured him in with promises that he could become a Doctor. He was crying in the library because he realized he could not. He had failed his lab report (the all white lab group he was working with had given him the assignment of simply presenting their work before the class when they realized he didn't know algebra) - he still managed to muck things up for the group by stumbling over the terms and words that they had scripted for him. The group then went to the professor to ask that they all be assigned to different groups as well. [after they had told the minority student they were going to do it - in words apprently strong enough to bring an inner-city black boy literally to tears]
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<p>It's not the black kid's fault. It's not the other kids' fault that they had to call the kid out for not knowing 9th grade math and go to the professor, either. Likewise it's not fair to the group that the black kid surely got reassigned to (although I never talked with him again).</p>
<p>None of them should have ever been put in that situation.</p>
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Everyone in his labs grade down? Are you telling us that you performed partnered experiments and did partnered lab reports? All data collected was shared and plotted and you suffered? I don't disagree w/ your opinion I just want to understand the situation you are explaining. You say this happened at a top 25 school. Help me out here......draw the picture again.
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<p>Yes. They all got lowered grades. At UM, lower level chem classes are paired with a mandatory 2 credit lab. In it you perform experiments with chemicals and demonstrate concepts you learn about on a more theoretical basis in class. Everyone gets 3-4 partners to write their midterm and term paper with - in most sections the grade is assigned by how the group presents the papers to the class (demonstrating on the overhead the relevant numerics).</p>
<p>Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I have had a somewhat similar experience but it was writing and not a group grade. A rather small class, kid got a low score on the first paper....asked me to read his next paper, there was very little I could do to help him for his writing skill was just not going to cut it.....without months of work, not days. I really didn't know what to even say, I steared him toward the writing center and have never seen him again. Yup Yup Yup.......many of these kids have no idea what they are about to get into....and that is just the academic stretch. Social is another big ugly. It is hard to comment on this.</p>
<p>Well it's a taboo subject, especially considering so many people advance the argument that just because they're there, non-URM's will think more highly of their race.</p>
<p>I'm willing to bet the kids in that lab group didn't think one way or another about "his race" when the grouped up with him. I'd be willing to be most kids at top schools didn't think twice about it before college.</p>
<p>You'd better beleive that those kids (who probably had never had any racial second-thoughts in their lives) willl be apprehensive about their lab assignment next semster however. Such is affirmative action.</p>
<p>...but you're not supposed to say things like that - like I said taboo subject.</p>
<p>I thought there's a study showing that if we remove AA, the % of white students in elite colleges don't change all that much. Only Asians will see significant increase. In other words, it's the Asians, not whites, that are most hurt by AA. Interestingly, Berkeley happens to be the real-world case that validates that study. By the way, if you are white (like the OP), you have more doors opened for you after colleges anyway. For me, if there's a choice between going to some second-tier college but having more privileges AFTER college and going to Northwestern with less privileges afterward, I would choose the former. I am not saying the current admission process is fair and just. But it's a little hypocritical to whine about this as a white person when he/sher ignores/denies all the hidden "white privileges" he/she's been taking for granted. If we really want to be fair, let's also look into things else like job advancement, average jail time for same kind of crime commited, ethnic representation on TV shows...etc. After all, life is so much more than 4 years in college.</p>
<p>Yeah but we're not talking about that sam lee... This is a college forum, so I suspect the focus would be on well... college. Particularly admissions. Butttttt we'll stick with your argument. Yes I acknowledge the fact that there are still plenty inequalities towards URMs existing in the world today, but can you truly believe that one inequality justifies another? And to be honest no single person is guaranteed any privileges. I'm Jewish, and I bet some CEO out there really doesn't like Jewish people, so you can't assume I have the advantage. Personally, I think that when the government focuses on college admissions for equality, they're starting a little late. If inner city public schools are revived and students are retained that helps every situation in the long run (except the tv thing, and jail time) because these underprivileged students now have a firm foundation in education and are ready for college (as opposed to the situation we heard earlier) and for the tv and jail time situations, those things just take time. Look there are a lot of people in control of those things today that grew up in prejudiced families, let them die, and when the new people who don't care about race take over their positions, things will eventually smooth out. But I agree with the fact that more stuff needs to be done to create equality for URMs but creating an inequality for ORMs (?) is certainly not the route to take.</p>
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It is interesting that AA, which is based on race, seems so much more offensive to some than the legacy/athlete hook.
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I think this is because we all know that in the real world, money talks. As wrong as it seems to admit a lesser qualified legacy or athlete, it is understandable because they bring $$$ to the college. The legacy's family probably makes substantial and measurable contributions to the college. The athlete not only has a unique talent that cannot be learned (akin to music or art), but strong sports teams also bring money to the school. Thus, admitting legacies and athletes is not necessarily right, but at least it's logical.</p>
<p>The general trend on this thread is that URMs have nothing to offer at selective colleges, since they are not bringing money to the school and -God forbid- they can't do math.</p>
<p>It is sad when that seems to say about your value system. Lawschoolbound, what does it say about you that you are so upset that a black student brought your lab grade down? There is more to life than grades. In the future, not many people will care what you got on your lab , but people will care about how compassionate and understanding you are. In the real world you have to get along with all types of people, of all different races. The idea behind AA is that the more you are exposed to different races the less you will buy into the stereotypes,and see the value in people, beyond their math abilities By the way, many brillant people have difficulty in math, black or white or tan. Believe it or not, there are people of color who are gifted in Math. My nephew,who just graduated from Swathmore with honors got 770 on the math portion of the SAT. Yet, I wonder how many students on his campus thought that he only got in because of his race. If any of the students that he went to college with and got to know him learned that you can not stereotype based on race, then they learned a valuable lesson.</p>
<p>Because he could do the work. Don't people who cannot do even remedial college work at top schools reinforce bad racial stereotypes instead?</p>
<p>I'm really interested in why you think kids (who probably never thought about race in their lives before this) would think MORE of a clearly affirmative action admit that couldn't do the math they learned in 9th grade and cost them their grade (in a highly competative Med-Meter class no less).</p>
<p>It just doesn't add up.</p>
<p>I'd like to share my personal story with you. My mother was Puerto Rican with a 2nd grade education. I grew up in poverty in the South Bronx My father (who was Irish) abandoned my mother and 5 children. Shortly thereafter my mother had a stroke. My older bother quit school and went to work. I worked after school and on weekends from the time I was 15 years old. I had been the top student in eight grade, but in high school I only managed a 85 average. I did ok on the SAt's ( I don't remember the exact score) I had no money for college, and I still had to help out my family. Fortunately I got a full ride to NYU, based on economic need and AA. If I had to do math in college I surely would have failed because I did not have the background for it. However at the time they had no core curriculum so I took English, History etc. I managed to do ok, even with working after classes to help out my mother. I was smart and given the opportunity I learned quickly. I went to law school, did well and passed the bar exam on my first try. I was a successful attorney for 11 years until I had to stop due to medical problems. I might not have had the same educational background as my classmates in college but I was just as bright. I did have some things that some of my classmates did not have: I had common sense, I was street smart and I understood how the real world worked. I feel that I added to my classmates experiences. Many did not know any Puerto Ricans and had misconceptions that I was able to negate. </p>
<p>My son does not need AA to go to a selective school. He is an A student with very high SAT scores. Because I was helped by AA, I was put in a situation where I could provide my son with a quality education.
However, when he goes to college there will be those who will immediately think that he got in because of his race. Maybe people will not want to be his lab partner because they will assume he could not do the work.(he got 740 on the Bio SATII).</p>
<p>My point is that you should not be so quick to judge. The black student that had the problem with math might have a lot to offer in another area. How well do you know the URMs in your school?Are you an expert on their abilities? Do you know their stories? College should be a place where you expand your mind, and in order to expand your mind you must first open your mind. By the way, my son looks like a California surfer boy. If he was in your class you would immediately think he was another high achieving white student. If he had trouble with Math youo would not immediately think it was due to his race. ( Don't worry, he is one minority that is great in math!)</p>
<p>Guys... ARE THERE ANY BENEFITS OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION in terms of what the student can contribute to the school and how the school get better? If you can think of ONE reason, then feel free to say it.</p>
<p>chammom, nobody here that's arguing agains AA thinks that all URMs are bad at math, or anything else for that matter. We're discussing the ones whose abilities aren't up to the level that their colleges presents to them. I don't think people here really have an issue with URMs who get into prestigious colleges when they deserve it. It's pretty sad that you've resorted to questioning our values when in actuality, we have EVERYONE in mind when we make these arguments. So maybe we should question your values system. And you say that LawSchoolBound shows no "compassionate and understanding"? That's funny, because it seemed to me like he understood both parties in the situation. And LawSchoolBound obviously felt bad for the student who nobody in their right mind would feel actually belonged at that school. I don't doubt that given every opportunity the student couldve succeeded at HYPS, but given every opportunity, I could as well. But neither of us have been given every opportunity, so should he still have an advantage? And last I checked, college was about education. Sure you could argue that the URM was given the opportunity to learn. But at the same rate, you could argue that everyone of those lab partners are there to learn as well, it's certainly not fair for them. And in reality, did the URM learn? Sure many people have issues with math, but the person didn't know basic algebra. Don't you think it's a little late in the game to be trying to catch this person up? </p>
<p>And I know you've posted again chammom, and I'll give you a full reply later, but I noticed you said you were bad in math (although we cannot know just how bad since you made decent SAT scores). Then you said you didn't take a math class. Hmm. Maybe he shouldn't have been in that class (since it's highly competitive, I'm guessing it would have been understood that the math involved would have been difficult) But really, my friend who got an 11 on the ACT can at least do algebra. He's a smart kid, but I definitely don't think he would belong in that situation either. Okay I'll come back to this later.</p>
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I love how most of the people who wish AA would go away are some of the same people whose families have benefitted from AA. Before AA. the "elite schools did not have students who were African Americans, Hispanics, Jews, Asians, or women
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<p>I was under the impression that Jewish people never did benefit from AA nor needed to. They still are overrepresented to this day. </p>
<p>Diversity is important. But would it be so bad to look at each person individually? If the person has had hardships due to his or her skin color, financial situation, or anything else, it could be conveyed through the application. Otherwise, I don't believe they should ask for each applicants ethnicity.</p>
<p>AA simply offers an unfair advantage to minorities. Why else would so many students post here and ask if they can declare that a distant ancestor was Native American or that they can check "hispanic" if they not but have a Hispanic sounding name. I would be willing to bet that highly qualified URMs, such as chammom's son, do not pass on the opportunity to check the URM box and apply on the merits of their records alone. And I don't blame them for doing so, simply because it would be foolish to pass up the opportunity for the significant admission boost. And to any highly qualiafied URMs who did not use AA to improve their admission and FA chances, my apologies.</p>
<p>Jusgivemethegun. Someone who can not do the required math for a course should not be in that class, regardless of their race. But does that mean that a urm that should not have been in a lab, should not be in the school at all? How is he doing in his other classes? Does anyone know,or are people assuming that he is doing badly in everything? If he can not do the work at the school, he will be asked to leave. AA opens the door, the student has to do the work. Some URMs will succeed, some might not, just as white or Asian students. </p>
<p>Ace: Good post. I am glad that Jews were overepresented at my college. Before college I had never met a Jewish person. In fact I had never heard any stereotypes of Jews either, because the issue never came up in the South Bronx. I went to school with a clean slate. I had 3 suite mates, 2 of which were Jewish. We became close friends. I learned alot about their culture, and they learned about mine. In later years after joining the work force, I was stunned by the amount of Anti Semitism and jewish stereotypes that exist. I am glad that I knew first hand about Jews, so I didn't buy into the stereo types. Being around people of a dfferent background added to my education.</p>
<p>I think that this is the goal of AA. The students and parents of my classmates in college saw that I was a bright hard working Puerto Rican, that didn't fit the stereotype of lazy, etc. Being around other races dispells stereotypes.</p>
<p>Why did the Jews not need AA vs. people of color? I can only offer my opinion. People fear what is different from them. Jews are light skinned, and the stereotypes attributed to Jews are offensive but different from the stereotypes attached to people of color. I have heard many people accuse people of color of being less intelligent, lazy, ammoral. When that is society's perception of a group, it is difficult for that group to find opportunities. Without opportunities it is difficult for a group to get the educational and financial support to create and maintain strong families and strong communities which produce strong students. </p>
<p>I agree that a student of any race that has had to overcome hardship such be given preference over other students. The issue of AA is different. I think it is more about offeing a diverse campus for all students to experience each other's background and learn from them. School is about learning about people and life, not just out of books</p>
<p>What do Jennifer Lopez's children do when they apply for colleges...check the box?</p>
<p>My son will be considered in the context of the school he attended, the fact that he is middle class, and that both his parents are college educated. I think there is a misconception that middle class URMs are given the same boost as disadvantaged URMs. This is untrue. Read the Gatekeepers or "A is for Admission",or ask an admissions officer.</p>
<p>As far as J Lo's kid they will probably benefit from their celebrity status just as the Bush twins or the Olsen twins.</p>
<p>I dislike AA if it involves quotas or otherwise admitting someone of lower merit but of the right colour over someone with clearly superior academic credentials. However, I do not fault colleges for building a diverse class and thus seeking to admit a mix of cultural and ethnic groups. The important thing is to admit a URM if and only if he/she is more or less equal to other White/Asian candidates in terms of merit (essay, interviews, GPA, test scores, etc.). That is the sort of AA I wholeheartedly support.</p>
<p>I should probably note that I'm an Asian (half Malaysian Chinese, about 3/8th Filipino, and 1/8th Filipino Chinese) and live in a country (Malaysia) where AA extends far more than just academics. People of the right colour here not only get an easier track into university, but also mandatory discounts on cars and real estate - even if they're buying a limo or mansion.</p>