<p>Talking with different parents while on several different school tours this past spring,
one question that seems to come up is whether its worth it for the student to take the a higher level in math, language etc...due to APs
or is it better for them to take the curriculum as its written.</p>
<p>One mother said her daughter jumped a level due to her AP Bio but was totally sinking by 2/3rds way into the term....</p>
<p>Some schools we visited offered not credit and not advanced standing---but rather put the student up a level....
so for example, in the case of our son and Latin--having completed it through AP level 5--he is offered to start a new language.</p>
<p>I read an article in the LA Times at one point that said colleges claimed the APs were NOT the same as the university course work.....but the LATimes said upon tracking etc of students who did get credit for the AP vs those that were forced to repeat--there wasn't a difference in success in upper levels
...BUT the universiities making this call were motivated by...$$$</p>
<p>So if your student like ours will have a ton of APS when he is done, are you recommending to your student to move up a level at the university (even if its without credit) or are you recommending he take the coursework in the initial order given?</p>
<p>Before Harvard revised its policy for awarding AP credit, some profs conducted a study. It was by no means extensive. However, they found that while students who scored 5s on APs were generally well prepared, students who scored 4s were performing only so-so. Harvard thus decided that only scores of 5s would be accepted.</p>
<p>Whether a student should take the next level or repeat a course depends a great deal on the student. AP courses do not necessarily cover exactly the same materials as introductory college courses; they certainly do not move as fast. If a student found that a lot of work was required to do well in AP, s/he might want to repeat the course. This is particularly true of Calculus.
In the humanities and social sciences where no true equivalent exists, it might be just as well to take the introductory course, whether in European of American history or in English or American literature.
But some students thrive on challenge and do not do very well when dealing with materials they have encountered before. Such students might be better off in more advanced courses.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s a good idea to start higher in science classes (though glancing at a few syllabi may help), but not skipping lower Math and Language classes seems pointlessly repetitive.</p>
<p>Son got straight A’s and a perfect 5 on his AP Bio. He wouldn’t have considered skipping the intro bio class in college unless he wasn’t a major and it met the standard of credit for requirements (meaning he had no intention of taking science again). Mostly what has happened is that he understands and knows some of it and is basically thrilled that it’s not killing him as the class has done to others. It’s almost like the AP was the prerequisite. And this was an AP class taught by a former professor at Williams so it wasn’t taught to the test per say.</p>
<p>AP Calc AB - he did use this to jump to Calc II. It’s his least favorite class but it was also his least favorite in HS, so things haven’t really changed. Had he the need to do much more math in college or was in a major like engineering etc, he probably would have taken Calc I. As it is, he is a fairly self motivated student and has no problem utilizing the TA student help from senior math majors. While language is usually used for placement (and confirmed by a placement test regardless), most AP classes don’t seem to directly replace courses at Son’s school - EXCEPT for math as noted above.</p>
<p>Also, the school only gives credit to a max of 4 AP classes and will not allow the credit if it is the major area of study. Since they so rarely replaces the schools requirements, mostly these credits will be used as elective credit. My additional understanding of this is that usually a kid will end up graduating with more credits because they still end up taking a bunch of electives just because they want to.</p>
<p>Modadunn
That sounds like about what our son will do–
he is planning on engineering and will finish HS with AP Cal AB, and AP Cal BC, AP Stat, AP Chem, AP Physics, AP Latin…I forget the rest right now…
the school he “thinks” is his first choice pick gives all incoming frosh a math placement anyway…but given what other parents have said–we think he’d be wise to not get over his head any place. With AP Latin Vergil, that gets thrown into the electives category and he would still need to take a language requirement–he will probably choose Italian.</p>
<p>When I started college–my AP Bio became 8 hrs and I had taken 2 course at the local community college my Sr yr–both which transfered in. So I saved myself the headache of the lab (not a science major) …but I didn’t have to choose about leveling, it gave me advanced standing so by Dec frosh yr I was a soph, and so on.</p>
<p>fog, my D is an engineering major and the only course she opted to place out of was Calculus- starting in Calc II (she had the same mathematics background as your son). She did still have to take a placement exam which was somewhat different as it was specific to the engineering school.</p>
<p>My son hasn’t had any issues, but he actually went sideways in math to discrete math rather than more advanced calculus. He had no problems with taking advanced physics courses after AP Physics C (his minor) or advanced computer science courses (his major) (he took the AP as a high school freshman). His school gives a math placement exam to make sure you actually remember the AP Calc material. For the rest of his APs he got out of nearly all his distribution requirements something that makes him very happy.</p>
<p>I know kids who have done well and kids who haven’t. Quite frankly, it depends on the school. Overall, the kids who have done well did so at schools that were not particularly demanding. The kids who struggled went to schools that were elite. A few were so brilliant that they did well, and would have done well, no matter what.</p>
<p>One of my DDs was a science major and her major would not allow the student to AP out of any science major requirements. Her good friend’s school, also a science major, required the student to skip any AP units. Both girls agreed that skipping the courses was not good.</p>
<p>Another DD was a science major, did not skip calc 1 and was glad not to skip that. Did not skip chem and was glad, but did use the bio AP to skip general bio for her bio major and was very happy to move on to all those more interesting upper div classes. But, bio is not quite so formulaic and linear as the math & chem and her HS bio teacher was amazing.</p>
<p>Dd did use AP English to skip to a different level, I think AP where you are not required to advance is fine to use as units to skip out of a GE requirement</p>
<p>At my kids’ college, the University of Chicago, a 5 on Calculus BC AP will get you out of the math requirement, if you want that, but a substantial majority of kids who had 5s on that test, but no substantial amount of additional math, elect to take one of Chicago’s versions of Calculus (there are three). The math advisors generally try to herd them into the honors version of Calculus, which seems to be a great course and challenging even to those who did well on the AP test, and is a perfectly good jumping-off place for a math major if that is what they want. But it’s not limited to people with 5s on the AP, either. They also have at least three other options for students who are truly more advanced. (Depending on how you count special inquiry-based sections, they have 7 or 9 different courses that serve as entry points into math study. A 5 on the Calculus AP seems to put you square in the middle of that.)</p>
<p>Other APs can be used to satisfy some, but not all, general education requirements, and to get placed in higher level courses (but one can get placed in those courses based on short tests, too).</p>
<p>It depends on the course in high-school, the student and the course in college.</p>
<p>Our son’s college physics courses had a few additional topics compared to the usual two-semester sequence. Those additional topics might have been at the request of some department that needed them for their courses. So a college might cover a set of topics and skipping their course might result in a deficiency in a few areas.</p>
<p>Some high-school programs are strong and some are weak. A friend of mine who took a few AP exams said that the scoring is pretty easy so that even a 5 might not indicate a particularly outstanding student. On the other hand I can see programs that are stronger than university program.</p>
<p>If a student is considering advanced standing, then perhaps looking at the syllabus for the course at the particular university would be a good indicator of whether to skip it or take it again or do something in-between.</p>
<p>I think at the moment D is planning on ChemE with a bio concentration- is using the Bio credits to get to the upper division courses. Wants to repeat the chemistry, though. School uses AP credits for both credit and placement, which is nice-- all of her general requirements are satisfied which is a plus.</p>
<p>The end result of my APs has been that I ended up using a lot of them to fill requirements, but not to start a level “up”. I took four in HS. My 5 on Art History finished my Fine Arts requirement (no needing to take “Intro to Dance” or “Music Appreciation”). My 5 on US History finished the history portion of my general education requirements. My 4 on English Lit was the only thing that had me start a level “up”. My 4 gave me credit for English 101, but I needed a 5 for English 102. So I’m taking second semester English right now… I would have never considered taking 101. I’m doing beyond fine in that class. My 3 in Environmental Science got me credit for a science class and a lab (part of the general education requirements) so now I only need to take one science course (and no lab) in college. If I was an Environmental Science major, I would consider taking the class again, but I’m not. It has worked out fine for me, but I would take caution at starting at a higher level in a math or a science unless you got a 5 on the exam.</p>
<p>As far as university placement tests go, I haven’t had issues with those either really. I got the score needed to void my foreign language requirement for my major. For math, my score put me on the bubble between pre-calc and business calculus (different version of calculus for non-math related majors). I took pre-calc senior year, and I decided that I could handle calculus. And I have so far… As on all quizzes and tests so far.</p>
<p>I think that you know if you can handle something tougher, or if it might be better to stay at the level everyone else is on.</p>
<p>I teach science at a top 20 institution. Like a number of our peer institutions is reviewing/revising our AP credit policies. By the way a number of medical no longer accept AP credit for some subjects. The problem the APs present is complex esp. in the sciences. It has more to do with how freshman approaches as opposed to what they do or do not know about the subject . Many high school teachers do an excellent job but they tend to follow a curriculum that promotes a superficial approach to learning. At selective colleges science faculty tend to favor a deep more conceptual approach to learning that includes what many refer to as ‘thinking like a scientist’. A number of colleges have revised their introductory science courses in an effort to address the conflict between the method of instruction offered in many AP courses and college level science courses. The problem is not limited to AP courses. The science faculty are also struggling with how to deal with transfer students. Our science departments accepts a handful of CC transfers (majority into the Biology/premed program) each year. Most earned straight A’s in their CC science courses. Unfortunately, the data reveals that many of our transfers earn below average grades in our intermediate level science courses.
There is also an effort underway to revise the premed requirements and the format of the MCAT exam. The feeling is that many premeds (substitute Bio. majors) do not have the evaluative and analytic skills required for medical schools. Efforts to revise both the science and premed curricula are being fueled by two reports on higher ed science education produced by the National Research Council (Biology 2010) and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (link to the HHMI report; [Creating</a> Scientifically Literate Physicians](<a href=“http://www.hhmi.org/grants/sffp.html]Creating”>http://www.hhmi.org/grants/sffp.html)).<br>
According to the HHMI report this is the overall goal of the premed program:
“Overarching Competency at the Time of Entry into Medical School:
Demonstrate both knowledge of and ability to use basic principles of mathematics and statistics, physics, chemistry, biochemistry, and biology needed for the application of the sciences to human health and disease; demonstrate observational and analytical skills and the ability to apply those skills and principles to biological situations.” </p>
<p>Unfortunately, the attitude many of our science majors bring to campus is not compatible with this goal. They arrive having earned 4s & 5s on 10+ AP exams. Some students take their first AP course in the 9th grade. The teaching approach used in many HS is effective in terms of student performance on AP exams. However, many of these high performing students struggle to adopt their learning styles to accommodate the teaching and learning goals of many college level science courses.
We expect to implement a revised curriculum in the next two or three years designed to address the concerns outlined in Bio2010 and the HHMI Med school report. Our majors will no longer be allowed to use AP credit to by pass our introductory courses. Many of our science faculty think a review the curriculum for the AP courses is the next step in the effort to improve science competency.</p>
<p>Also keep in mind that the scoring curve on the AP exams is generous. A 70% will get you a 5. So there’s a 5 (at 70%), and then there’s a 5 (at 95% and above). One benefit of using the AP credit to move ahead is that it puts you in a peer group of “super freshmen” that will keep your expectations for yourself high. This is also true if you use the AP Calc credit to move into the highest Calc sequence at schools with multiple sequences like Harvard, Chicago, or U Michigan. You’ll be in a smaller class with motivated students, not really doing Calculus, more like baby Analysis.</p>
<p>S1 took AP Calc AB as a jr. He was req. to take Calc1 and CalcII (for engineering, not the business version) at college. Since it had been awhile since the AP class,he signed up for Calc.1 in Fall of fresh. yr. thinking it would be a good review. He got a foreign PhD. student who was impossible to understand. After the first couple of tests, he was failing so dropped the class. It would have been silly to continue and fail a class he already had credit for.<br>
He didn’t want to get behind in his schedule so took the leap and signed up for Calc.II for Spring sem. He got a wonderful teacher who was very willing to help him (S1 went to all office hours…saved his life). He came out of Calc II with a B after not having studied it for over a year and a half. The better instructor was def. found in the higher level course.</p>
<p>I don’t think that the problems encountered by students in college has anything to do with the grade and age at which they took their first APs (S took his first APs in 8th grade). One has to do with the far greater level of support high school teachers provide to students; deprived of this support, many students flounder in college. Another, related to support, has to do with teaching to the test. This does not foster learning to think like a scientist or mathematician.</p>
<p>
I rather think that students who have obtained a score of 5 on Calc BC and have not taken a more advanced math class while in high school will go into Math 21 at Harvard, not one of the more advanced versions of freshman calculus. The same would apply to schools where there are different versions of freshman “calculus.”</p>
<p>^^That’s a great story, packmom!
S took CalcII after a 5 on APCalc. HS teacher taught to the test. College prof zoomed through material. S was lost - had to retake it - just to understand what the hell was going on!
However, for other courses, he used AP credit to fill distribution reqs and will easily graduate with a double major.</p>
<p>marite: I promise that at Chicago the first math course most AP 5 scorers take is “Honors Calculus”.</p>
<p>appdad: Thank you for such a detailed critique of the AP. The sort of problems you describe certainly apply to humanities APs. They are not horrible as tests of basic knowledge, but the idea that teachers are teaching to these tests appalls me.</p>
<p>Do you have any view on the IB curriculum? In theory, at least, it is designed to meet all the criticisms you have of the AP curriculum.</p>
<p>Marite, that was my point about the curve being so easy that it is hard to tell what an AP “5” means. So <em>most</em> students will start at Math 21, but those that finish the AP exam in less than two hours and walk out saying “that was fun, I think I got everything right,” might start in Math 23 or 25, especially if they’ve had other exposure to math, as you said.</p>