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<p>What about sororities? It was sororities that you declared “antediluvial” and were “appalled” that they still existed.</p>
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<p>I knew the Flintstones was non fiction.</p>
<p>I think both are equally appalling. Happy, Bay?</p>
<p>“I think both are equally appalling.” Why the extreme attitude? I find many organizations not to my liking and wouldn’t think of joining but not sure I would translate that into finding those organizations “appalling.”</p>
<p>There are schools where the fraternities are entirely off campus and not recognized as a student group. At CU-Boulder, the IFC is not recognized (sororities/Pan Hellenic is a student group). Fraternities cannot use university facilities. I think for things like homecoming floats and intramural teams, they just team up with a sorority. The fraternities used to be a student group, but decided to separate when the university made demands the IFC didn’t want to agree to. In the old days when IFC was a student group, the university did make requests for the national organizations to revoke charters or otherwise discipline chapters, but no longer have that ability. I think the alums are much more involved these days, requiring designated drivers, no hazing, clean up, maintenance of their properties, etc. My nephew is a pledge and he has a lot of rules to follow. His frat doesn’t have a house so much use outside facilities (sometimes they rent sorority or other fraternity houses, use a house rented by a group of their members, meet at a restaurant, etc.)</p>
<p>At my daughter’s school, where most of the fraternities occupy houses on fraternity row, owned by the school, the university does revoke the leases of houses, and in fact one was pulled this past summer (it now sits empty, in shame!). Another house just got off alcohol probation (I don’t know what that entailed). The university clearly has a lot more say in what goes on in university owned property.</p>
<p>Sevmom, because I find exclusionary organizations questionable at the very least, especially at public universities and private schools that supposedly espouse diversity. Because, for all their talk, they’re really geared to getting the “right” sort of women with the “right” sort of man, and to get the “right sort of man” linked, professionally, with other “right kind of men.” If you don’t fit their fairly conservatively drawn parameters, you don’t belong. And there’s the crassness, too. The wild parties, the binge drinking, the rapes, the crude anti-intellectual, macho posturing. I don’t respect these institutions. They turn many probably perfectly nice young men into brutes. They turn many probably perfectly nice young women into… well… victims. Victims who then are shamed into silence so as not to sully their “reputation” or ruin their chances to being invited to other frat parties. </p>
<p>None of this should come as a surprise to anyone familiar with the debates about Greeks. These are not new debates. Like I said pages ago, I remember the same discussions 30 years ago on my campus. </p>
<p>Thank you for your explanation, @katliamom.</p>
<p>"Because, for all their talk, they’re really geared to getting the “right” sort of women with the “right” sort of man, and to get the “right sort of man” linked, professionally, with other “right kind of men.” "</p>
<p>What precisely would “the right sort of man” be, katliamom? How do you explain that my S’s house, one of the largest on campus, has Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Muslims, Indians, Asians, whites, blacks, Hispanics, gays and straights? Doesn’t fit your narrative of Waspy McWASP, does it? </p>
<p>My S’s fraternity includes Black and Hispanic members. His roommate in the house is gay. They are a pretty nerdy group, unlikely to be labelled “brutes” or accused of macho-posturing. I’m really happy that he found a nice group of friends in college. </p>
<p>Yet, so many people here with kids at other schools are also quick to judge, My kid was also in a pretty diverse fraternity at UVa and anybody he has talked to is appalled at the idea of any fraternity there being involved in rape, let alone premeditated gang rape. There are many fraternities and sororities there. If there is/was a fraternity there that would promote that, the members involved need to be prosecuted . UVa is in the spotlight now because the author chose to highlight this university. They have an opportunity now to take the lead in addressing this important issue. That may be the good news that can come out of this . Reform, more attention to a very important issue.</p>
<p><a href=“18 U.S. Presidents Were in College Fraternities - The Atlantic”>18 U.S. Presidents Were in College Fraternities - The Atlantic;
<p>Clearly, if all frats were like the ones you describe, this thread wouldn’t exist. But it does because all too many frats are associated with, if not criminal, than at least less-than gentlemanly (ahem) behavior. And because all too many sororities are complicit or too quiet in the condemnation of that behavior. Until it’s too late. </p>
<p>And now you are trying to bring this around to other issues- women being “complicit.” ?</p>
<p>It may be true that 18 US Presidents were in fraternities, but I don’t think that really helps the case. </p>
<p>12 US Presidents were slaveowners, but I am still against it. </p>
<p>And i certainly don’t deny that rapes have occurred at UVa. Hopefully the Rolling Stone article will cause many colleges to look at their policies where sexual offense allegations are made </p>
<p>I am no big fan of fraternities and think that sexist attitudes abound there and that sexual assault at parties certainly are a problem. However, some of the frat bashing seems to fly in the face of the Lisak paper that is commonly referenced as finding that most campus sexual assaults are committed by serial predators. His paper states:</p>
<p>Participants in this study were 1,882 students at a mid-sized, urban commuter university
where students are diverse both in age and ethnicity. The mean age of the sample was 26.5
years (SD =8.28), with a range of 18 to 71. More than 20% were over age 30, and nearly
8% were over 40. </p>
<p>This is the paper in which Lisak found: “The repeat rapists averaged 5.8 rapes each. The 120
rapists were responsible for 1,225 separate acts of interpersonal violence, including rape,
battery, and child physical and sexual abuse”</p>
<p>Given the type of college and the type of students included in his study, does not seem like fraternities were a big factor.</p>
<p>I have to say that I am not convinced that Lisak’s findings can be extrapolated to a more typical residential college where the vast majority of students are 18-22 or so and the mean age would be well under 26.5. Frats may be a bigger factor there, but not clear that they would be more likely to house serial rapists. </p>
<p>Two groups of students were arrested in the last week here in NJ for rapes committed in dorms, not frat houses. There needs to be a cultural shift that respects women and does not see them as sexual objects outside of the classroom - both in fraternities and in dorm rooms. </p>
<p>First of all, the rape story that “Jackie” tells is almost certainly a complete fabrication. Part of our job as parents is to teach our children critical thinking skills. As told, the story has about a one-tenth of one percent chance of being true. I strongly suspect that it is a total lie. Believe the story if you wish, but just be aware that there are about 10 easily verifiable facts, EACH of which must be true, which have not been verified, even though most are easily verified, i.e. was there a party registered that night, was a Phi Psi a lifeguard in 2012, is Jackie covered with scars from being raped for three hours on top of shards of broken glass? It’s sad that people would just accept such shoddy journalism.</p>
<p>Second, lots of colleges don’t have a Greek system; others have a very weak Greek system. Personally I was in a fraternity and found it one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. I am encouraging both of my children to strongly consider joining a Greek organization.</p>
<p>Rather than all of the talk of “banning” or restricting the Greek system, why don’t you parents just encourage your children to make what you think are wise choices, both in college selection and in Greek affiliation on arrival. In other words, you and your family can order your lives as you wish, and me and my family can do the same. Those who wish to join a fraternity can do so. Those superior people who have no need for a fraternity need not bother. But please, don’t try to put in a set of rules to ruin other people’s lives just because some of you feel that the Greek system isn’t for you.</p>
<p>Freedom and choices are good things.</p>
<p>^^^^
And THIS is exactly why so many young girls do not report rape.</p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/sabrina-rubin-erdely-woman-behind-rolling-stones-explosive-u-va-alleged-rape-story/2014/11/28/89f322c2-7731-11e4-bd1b-03009bd3e984_story.html”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/sabrina-rubin-erdely-woman-behind-rolling-stones-explosive-u-va-alleged-rape-story/2014/11/28/89f322c2-7731-11e4-bd1b-03009bd3e984_story.html</a></p>
<p>There is definitely some disbelief:
<a href=“'Is the UVA Rape Story a Gigantic Hoax?' Asks Idiot”>http://jezebel.com/is-the-uva-rape-story-a-gigantic-hoax-asks-idiot-1665233387</a></p>
<p>The world is a much nicer place if this story isn’t true, if fraternities aren’t dangerous places, if our young women are safe from assault on their campuses. We can take the same set of events and interpret them in very different ways. We can believe whatever we choose.</p>
<p>“First of all, the rape story that “Jackie” tells is almost certainly a complete fabrication. Part of our job as parents is to teach our children critical thinking skills. As told, the story has about a one-tenth of one percent chance of being true. I strongly suspect that it is a total lie.”</p>
<p>Really, shame on you. </p>