<p>“But there are other numerical components where Miami does compare to, or even bests Michigan. (Student body strength, class sizes, ect)”</p>
<p>Allacapella, you are assuming too much. That is why experts find statistical rankings of universities unreliable and often flawed. That is why so many scholars scoff at a ranking that has Cal and Michigan ranked out of the top 20. Class size statistics taken out of context are not very telling. Perhaps a university offers a wider range of large, intro-level classes, or perhaps it floods its course bulletin with mandatory freshman seminars. I have actually analyzed class sizes at several top universities (I did not look into Miami class sizes because it does not factor in my list of top universities), and it is pretty evident that if comparing apples to apples (identical classes), class sizes vary little among top universities. An intro or intermediate to Micro or Macroeconomics class is not going to be noticeable smaller at say Columbia or Northwestern than they are going to be at Cornell or Michigan. I suspect when adjusted for relevance, Miami and Michigan have similar class sizes. A class with 25 students enrolled at Northwestern is not going to habe 300 students enrolled at Michigan. It may have have anywhere from 15-35, depending on the course. </p>
<p>But since when is class size alone an important factor? And does it really matter when most universities have similar class sizes? I know for a fact that the true differentiating factor when comparing classroom experience is the quality of the faculty and the content of the material being taught. There is no doubt that Michigan trumps Miami in faculty quality (by a huge margin), and while I am not familiar with Miami’s curriculum, Michigan is known for being a leader in content taught in the classroom.</p>
<p>As for acceptance rates, they mean nothing. Nothing at all. Only teenagers are fooled by acceptance rates. And the quality of a student body cannot be measured statistically. If Miami’s student body were truly as good as Michigan’s, why is it that it is less represented at top graduate programs by a ratio of 8:1, and that not even including Michigan’s graduate programs. If you include Michigan graduate programs, Michigan alums would outnumber Miami alums by a ratio of 12:1. Yes, Michigan is 2.5 times larger than Miami, and looking at the number of medical and law school applicants from those two universities, Michigan outnumbers Miami by a ratio of 2:1. But if Miami students were indeed as accomplished as Michigan, they would not be outnumber by such a significant margin. Perhaps Michigan reports student quality data differently from Miami, but clearly, Michigan students far outperform Miami students when it comes to graduate school placement.</p>
<p>“Let’s flip the argument. Assuming an appropriately motivated, bright student, will he/she receive a materially better education at Harvard vs Michigan? And is this something the student will actually experience concretely?”</p>
<p>finalchild, to answer your question in a nutshell, no. The reason for this is simple. The faculty teaching at Michigan, and the content being taught, will not be that different from Harvard. </p>
<p>That being said, the quality of one’s education is not in question. What is in question is the quality of the institution. Harvard is superior to Michigan. It has a far larger endowment, a significantly stronger reputation, a better alumni network etc…One should only choose Michigan over Harvard if it is much cheaper or if Michigan offers a program not offered at Harvard. Fit really is not a factor since Harvard and Michigan have enough in common to ensure that someone who is happy at one will be relatively happy at the other.</p>
<p>This is all semantics, specific figures and a navigation around the original point being made. </p>
<p>Here is what I, and a few others, were saying:
- Michigan is clearly better than Miami
- That being said, the scenario is not a “go to Michigan without considering any other factors” case. Meaning, if someone had a clear preference to go to UMiami, it wouldn’t be crazy or unheard of if they opted to. </p>
<p>Perhaps you guys disagree and that’s fine. You hold on to your opinion, we’ll hold on to ours.</p>
<p>misjump, parchment is not reliable. I do not doubt that 90%+ who choose between Harvard and Michigan will pick Harvard. That is absolutely believable, not because Parchment says so, but because Harvard would have a 90% record vs most universities other than MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale. </p>
<p>Parchment is definitely not very telling. I am not sure what metrics they use, but I am willing to bet anything that most students who choose Miami over Michigan are OOS students who would have had to pay full tuition to attend Michigan and at the same time received a hefty scholarship to attend Miami. If finances are not a factor, Michigan will win most cross-admits with Miami. Michigan loses a lot of OOS cross-admits against peer institutions (Miami is not a peer obviously) because it costs more to attend as a result of poor financial aid. Once Michigan starts offering attractive financial aid packages, you will notice major shifts in cross-admit figures.</p>
<p>“That being said, the quality of one’s education is not in question.” </p>
<p>Alexandre, this is a pretty stunning thing to dismiss.</p>
<p>allcapella, it would indeed be crazy to choose Miami over Michigan, not because personal preference should not play a role in decision making, but because Miami and Michigan offer similar out-of-the-classroom experiences; school spirit, athletic tradition, active social environments, greek options etc…). Yes, there are differences, such as weather and surrounding areas, but weather should almost never play a deciding factor unless the two universities are peers (Miami is not a peer), and while Ann Arbor and Coral Gables are not similar, both have a lot to offer. One would basically choose an inferior university because of truly insignificant factors that are in no way commensurate with the importance of one’s academic </p>
<p>Like I said earlier, if Miami were a tiny LAC, and the OP had expressed a strong desire to be in a LAC environment, the concept of fit would actually be valid. But between Miami and Michigan, fit is not going to play as large a role as the quality of the university should be the primary driver in the decision-making process.</p>
<p>Let me put it another way. Who among you would choose Miami over Michigan personally?</p>
<p>finalchild, I was not saying that the quality of education should not matter, I was saying that between Michigan and Harvard, debating quality of education is not necessary because Harvard is a superior university to Michigan. The only way one should consider Michigan over Harvard is if cost were a major concern, and Michigan were much cheaper, or if one were interested in a major that Harvard did not offer.</p>
<p>Michigan and Miami as universities have similarities, yes. But I disagree that if a student would be happy at one they would be unfailingly happy at the other. Michigan and Miami are simply too different culturally and geographically. I could absolutely see a student loving Miami/Coral gables while hating Ann Arbor, or vis versa. It would be naive of any of us to assume that between those two universities there wouldn’t be plenty of students that would love one and dislike the other. </p>
<p>I agree that ideally and in theory weather should not be a factor. But in reality it very well could be, and should be, depending on the student. If a student finds cold weather to be utterly intolerable and sees himself doing much better and being much happier in a warm, tropical climate, then clearly Miami would probably be a better fit. If weather/climate is going to affect a student’s performance, mood, or happiness, then obviously it should be a factor.</p>
<p>While some people may hate one school while love the other, such a scenario would be based on very personal preferences that do not apply to most of us. Like I said, there just are too many similarities to absolutely love one and absolutely hate the other. Of course, if the OP hates Michigan and loves Miami, then I would recommend Miami. But the sentiment would have to be at polar opposites. If the OP merely prefers Miami but does not mind Michigan, I would recommend Michigan. The difference in the caliber of those two schools is far greater than some of you may think. Michigan is arguably one of the top 10 universities in the country, certainly one of the top 20. Miami simply does not come close.</p>
<p>Interesting. jakey and alcapella just recommended Duke over Michigan, hands down, in a thread on the main board. Here they imply that Miami is a reasonable choice over Michigan, but there there is no question Duke is the better choice. Michigan and Duke are much more peers than Michigan and Miami.</p>
<p>Alexandre, I disagree. At this point, I’ll just leave it at that.</p>
<p>RJK,</p>
<p>Yes, all things being equal I would recommend Duke over Michigan. I’d also recommend Michigan over Miami. </p>
<p>I never said I wouldn’t recommend Michigan over Miami-I certainly would. All I am saying is I wouldn’t recommend it to someone who clearly preferred Miami.</p>
<p>"All I am saying is I wouldn’t recommend it to someone who clearly preferred Miami?</p>
<p>Would you recommend Duke to someone who clearly favored Michigan? Would you recommend Duke to someone who was interested in pursuing engineering?</p>
<p>misjump24, convince your D to go to Duke - all you’ve done on threads is knock Michigan. Not sure why you would let her consider it.</p>
<p>Those interested in a Duke vs Michigan thread should open their own on the Duke and Michigan forums. This thread is about Miami vs Michigan.</p>
<p>I disagree with Alexandre quite often on this site and I don’t think that Michigan is quite as good as he makes it out to be at the undergraduate level but I fully agree with him here. Michigan is a far superior option to Miami in almost every way. Forget Duke, the difference between Harvard and Michigan is smaller than the gap between Michigan and Miami.</p>
<p>Depending on the field of study in question and career goals, an individual who chooses Miami over Michigan could very well be making a colossal mistake. After all, no elite banking or consulting firms recruits at Miami while the majority of them have a presence at Michigan.</p>
<p>Michigan is 4x as well represented at Yale Law School too compared to Miami.
<a href=“Welcome | Office of the University Printer”>Welcome | Office of the University Printer;
<p>I think in general, at the undergraduate level I’d be more concerned with fit than with reputation. </p>
<p>There is obviously quite a discrepancy between Michigan and Miami, the size of which varies depending on what criteria you stress in your assessment of undergraduate quality. </p>
<p>It seems allcapella values things in an undergraduate education that lessens the gap, while Alexandre places emphasis on things that enlarge the gap between these two. Neither is right or wrong, I think it is simply a personal choice and depends on what you value in a university. </p>
<p>For me personally, I wouldn’t really care that much about reputation or how elite a school is at the undergraduate level. This isn’t unique to Michigan vs Miami, however. Wether we were comparing Duke vs UCSD, or Notre Dame vs American U, or any other match-up, for me personally I’d place more emphasis on fit than on prestige/reputation. For many others, however, going to the better/higher ranked school is the primary consideration. Nothing wrong with that either. </p>
<p>So, bringing this back to the OP, my advice would be to decide what is important to you in an education. Think about how much you value prestige/reputation, as well as how much you value social atmosphere and general fit. What I would say is don’t stress too much. Wherever you end up, you will likely find enriching, both socially and academically.</p>
<p>Its not a difference in prestige/reputation that is important, it is the difference in undergraduate teaching capability and undergraduate learning experience (thus driving the reputation). The teaching is superior at Umich; see every teaching peer assessement.</p>
<p>reddog, I generally love your posts and mostly agree with you. In this instance, I think it is easier to take your stance above from the vantage point of already knowing you are going to one of the most prestigious programs in the country. I wish fit was more important, but I think 99% of us (if money is not prohibitive) are going to choose “the best school” possible or at least a school within the peer group of the “best school I got into.” I wish this was different, and I think this trend where kids are applying to 20+ and up to 30 schools is insane, but I don’t see this changing anytime soon. I think people are mostly agreeing here and the arguing is more semantics. There is a large gap between Mich and Miami. Folks can debate how big.</p>
<p>You don’t need to be a ‘genius’ to succeed at any college. Harvard is full of legacies that are there because of family. Mostly it’s a matter of hard work and finding a subject you enjoy.</p>
<p>Michigan has four seasons only one of which is Winter. Fall is gorgeous. Winter is cozy actually, just a bit too long. It is cloudy though, not good if you have SAD.</p>